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Old 03-16-2011, 12:55 AM   #26
Insane Duane
 
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Another new video:

This one is on Knife Disarms. Would love to see your videos on the topic too - to start a discussion. Please share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9VQEgStjx0

Thanks,
d
I like many of the other videos but these type of knife takeaways seem too risky. Interesting concepts but too risky for my taste.
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Old 03-16-2011, 02:50 AM   #27
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

I can see your point. For me, once you allow for the fact that any in-close range empty-handed defense against a knife is too risky, things start to open up a bit. I tend to like these because the knife disarm is simply an attempt. It may work, it may not - hence the rest of the technique.

Still, "reality" aside, I like these knife techniques because they lend themselves quite readily to the "irimi spirit" of these techniques. In that sense, the knife here is a great tool for the cultivation of that spirit. Anyways, that is where they are coming from for me.

Do you have a sample or can you point to a sample of a few knife disarming techniques that might fall within your category of "not too risky" so that we can share the same context? Please/thanks.

d

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-16-2011, 10:52 AM   #28
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

Quote:
Still, "reality" aside, I like these knife techniques because they lend themselves quite readily to the "irimi spirit" of these techniques. In that sense, the knife here is a great tool for the cultivation of that spirit. Anyways, that is where they are coming from for me.
I agree with the above statement. Most definitely promotes the "irimi spirit" which is crucial to many aikido techniques.

Quote:
Do you have a sample or can you point to a sample of a few knife disarming techniques that might fall within your category of "not too risky" so that we can share the same context? Please/thanks
I hear ya. A video of a technique is worth MORE than any amount of speaking on the subject IMO. This is something I have been wanting to do. If everything works out I should have some videos of various techniques on the 28th (due to various reasons I am only able to train at my dojo every other Monday which is killing me . I found a local Karate dojo that is very interested in learning some aikido (especially after I gave them a little taste ) so hopefully I will be able to supplement my training with this dojo).

Once I have the videos posted I will let everyone know so we can share our knowledge and perception of said techniques.
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Old 03-16-2011, 07:46 PM   #29
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

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David Valadez wrote: View Post
I can see your point. For me, once you allow for the fact that any in-close range empty-handed defense against a knife is too risky, things start to open up a bit. I tend to like these because the knife disarm is simply an attempt. It may work, it may not - hence the rest of the technique.
David,

It's dangerous if a student doesn't understand the level of collusion(total dead squirrel syndrome) required for a knife slap disarm. It would never work in real life, neither would an extended iriminage as a back-up option because at the minimum you would be stabbed in the back or in the belly during the throw. Since knife disarming is dangerous enough as you noted, I recommend only practicing and teaching techniques where uke's wrist, the one with the knife, is grabbed and controlled from the very beginning and disarmed only after completing the throw and the pin. I wouldn't be giving this constructive criticism if I didn't think it posed a potential safety hazard to an uninformed student.
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Old 03-16-2011, 08:52 PM   #30
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

I think in an ideal world, one where you posit the possibility of NOT getting cut by a knife when your attacker has one and you do not, tactical responses that wouldn't be considered "too risky" have you mobile and out of range and armed with a firearm. Otherwise, if you are looking to defend yourself against a knife-wielding attacker, while you are unarmed, and whether or not you are looking to disarm, you should concede two things: 1. Your tactics, whatever they be, fall within the commonly understood category of "too risky," and 2. Your are probably going to get cut/stabbed regardless of what you do.

In other words, in my opinion, the s*** has hit the fan, and that is the only reason why you should be opting for tactics that are by default low percentage moves (ie. "too risky") - regardless of what you opt to try. (This is of course relative to the knife skills of the attacker.)

That said, as good as a tactic may be, in this scenario, it still sucks. But, in the world of suck, which is the opposite of an ideal world, my experience lends itself to note that these types of disarms are more viable than attempting to catch a wrist, as in the commonly practiced tanto dori kote-gaeshi responses to a knife attack. Moreover, as the skill of the knife fighter increase, the gap of tactical viability between slapping a knife out of a thrusting grip and attempting to grab the knife fighter's wrist gets wider and wider. Meaning, the higher the skill of the knife fighter, while you may want the comfort of grabbing his/her wrist, the less likely you will be able to, and, should you the more likely that grab only worked to get you killed quicker by becoming the doorway that he/she used to attack your vital zones.

dmv

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Old 03-16-2011, 09:20 PM   #31
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

Still, again, a video demonstrating the grabbing then disarming technique - whether it be yours or of someone else - would be most appreciated.

D

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Old 03-16-2011, 10:28 PM   #32
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

David,

Have you had success with the knife slap disarm at other dojos? Can you describe what you mean by "this world of suck" where the knife slap has worked better for you than a wrist grab? This is the first time I've ever seen this technique used. Street realism aside for a moment, what bothers me more is it requires uke to attack with a dead hand. What's the premise of Aikido training in a dojo? Appropriate levels of cooperation is common sense, but uke should still provide power applications where all of uke is alive and involved in order to honestly study the interaction of energy between nage and uke. Grabbing the wrist doesn't require a dead uke hand, which is why I recommend it.

In a malicious no other options real life encounter with a skilled armed attacker, I suggest complete compliance to give the attacker a false sense of dominance and security. Then when he provides the right ma-ai I would knock him out. For a female in this position, if the knock out were beyond her abilities, I would recommend to go for the groin with a mae geri or an eye poke. If the attacker isn't that skilled then grabbing the wrist, restraining, and pinning can work. If the attacker is so weak I could actually slap the knife out of the hand, then I would still grab the wrist instead so that the knife doesn't accidentally land on anyone's foot including uke's.
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:10 PM   #33
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

I found these on youtube (I got tired of looking and settled on these):

I found the following one had a couple examples of tsuki knife takeaways that appear to be far less risky IMO (the first couple of techniques.. the kotegaeshi has too large of a circle IMO but whatever works ( I also don't practice like the following either)):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBXUEU7nVYk

The following have other type of knife attacks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yacGwi8Kzg (start at 3:20)

Last edited by Insane Duane : 03-16-2011 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 03-17-2011, 01:14 AM   #34
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
David,

Have you had success with the knife slap disarm at other dojos? Can you describe what you mean by "this world of suck" where the knife slap has worked better for you than a wrist grab? This is the first time I've ever seen this technique used. Street realism aside for a moment, what bothers me more is it requires uke to attack with a dead hand. What's the premise of Aikido training in a dojo? Appropriate levels of cooperation is common sense, but uke should still provide power applications where all of uke is alive and involved in order to honestly study the interaction of energy between nage and uke. Grabbing the wrist doesn't require a dead uke hand, which is why I recommend it.

In a malicious no other options real life encounter with a skilled armed attacker, I suggest complete compliance to give the attacker a false sense of dominance and security. Then when he provides the right ma-ai I would knock him out. For a female in this position, if the knock out were beyond her abilities, I would recommend to go for the groin with a mae geri or an eye poke. If the attacker isn't that skilled then grabbing the wrist, restraining, and pinning can work. If the attacker is so weak I could actually slap the knife out of the hand, then I would still grab the wrist instead so that the knife doesn't accidentally land on anyone's foot including uke's.
I am far from being the inventor of these type of dynamic fulcrum disarming techniques. They are practiced all over the world, for the knife, the handgun, etc. In my own training, yes, they have by me and by others, been used successfully in other dojo.

Actually, I would say it's the opposite: They dynamic fulcrum disarms require uke to attack with a very tight grip and with an effort to fully penetrate the target. The dead hand, and the lack of penetration makes the knife more likely not to fully come out of uke's grip because the fulcrum at the rear of the knife and the back of the grip cannot be established - making the knife itself not act as a lever in the action. If anything, what you will be "yelling" at your students is to hold the knife more tightly and to stab further into the target. They tend only to do this though in relation to how much they have reconciled their attachment to the fear they may experience via the "anticipated" throw.

If you have not seen these types of types of dynamic fulcrum disarms, I would say, "Give them a try," and you might be surprised at their effectiveness. A good side by side experiment is always in order: Have a training partner that does not want you to grab his wrist when he thrusts at you attempt to stab you over and over again as you try to grab his/her wrist. Then, try the dynamic fulcrum disarms against the same thrust.

"World of suck" was me being cute to describe the fact that whatever you do against a knife (when it's up close and personal and you are unarmed), it's a low-percentage move that should only be weighed against saving your life or other irreversible consequences. Otherwise, just comply with whatever is happening, short of suffering aforementioned irreversible consequences. That's my take on self-defense regarding knife attackers and these kind of imagined scenarios.

d

Last edited by senshincenter : 03-17-2011 at 01:17 AM.

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Old 03-17-2011, 05:12 AM   #35
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

This is one of the few methods for knife defense I find sensible if shtf, and its full of irimi spirit.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:41 PM   #36
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

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David Valadez wrote: View Post
I am far from being the inventor of these type of dynamic fulcrum disarming techniques. They are practiced all over the world, for the knife, the handgun, etc. In my own training, yes, they have by me and by others, been used successfully in other dojo.
I don't consider it Aikido.

Quote:
Actually, I would say it's the opposite: They dynamic fulcrum disarms require uke to attack with a very tight grip and with an effort to fully penetrate the target. The dead hand, and the lack of penetration makes the knife more likely not to fully come out of uke's grip because the fulcrum at the rear of the knife and the back of the grip cannot be established - making the knife itself not act as a lever in the action. If anything, what you will be "yelling" at your students is to hold the knife more tightly and to stab further into the target. They tend only to do this though in relation to how much they have reconciled their attachment to the fear they may experience via the "anticipated" throw.
If it's not intuitive, a tight grip(a contracted power application) is the worst possible way to hold weapons. It's one of the most common mistakes I see with beginners, and the student should consciously correct oneself until that tension disappears. A ‘baby's grip'(decontracted base) is best, relaxed and connected. If you've had your finger grabbed by a baby then you'll know just how well it works. The soft grip is alive and powerful. Relying on improper technique by uke doesn't bode well for the knife slap.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
If you have not seen these types of types of dynamic fulcrum disarms, I would say, "Give them a try," and you might be surprised at their effectiveness. A good side by side experiment is always in order: Have a training partner that does not want you to grab his wrist when he thrusts at you attempt to stab you over and over again as you try to grab his/her wrist. Then, try the dynamic fulcrum disarms against the same thrust.
Freestyle in an Aikido dojo should allow for uke to turn the blade over during the thrust, if nage is already committed to the fulcrum knife slap then the result is a really bloody hand. Even at moderate training levels it would be easy for uke to do this. If kaeshiwaza is this simple in a cooperative environment, then it's practically guaranteed in real life.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
"World of suck" was me being cute to describe the fact that whatever you do against a knife (when it's up close and personal and you are unarmed), it's a low-percentage move that should only be weighed against saving your life or other irreversible consequences. Otherwise, just comply with whatever is happening, short of suffering aforementioned irreversible consequences. That's my take on self-defense regarding knife attackers and these kind of imagined scenarios.
If one's life is at such risk, you'd recommend a knife slap phased 90 deg after the thrust over a knock out, low blow, or an eye poke phased 90 deg before the thrust?
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Old 03-17-2011, 03:26 PM   #37
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

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I don't consider it Aikido.

If it's not intuitive, a tight grip(a contracted power application) is the worst possible way to hold weapons. It's one of the most common mistakes I see with beginners, and the student should consciously correct oneself until that tension disappears. A ‘baby's grip'(decontracted base) is best, relaxed and connected. If you've had your finger grabbed by a baby then you'll know just how well it works. The soft grip is alive and powerful. Relying on improper technique by uke doesn't bode well for the knife slap.

Freestyle in an Aikido dojo should allow for uke to turn the blade over during the thrust, if nage is already committed to the fulcrum knife slap then the result is a really bloody hand. Even at moderate training levels it would be easy for uke to do this. If kaeshiwaza is this simple in a cooperative environment, then it's practically guaranteed in real life.

If one's life is at such risk, you'd recommend a knife slap phased 90 deg after the thrust over a knock out, low blow, or an eye poke phased 90 deg before the thrust?
Admittedly, I'm open with with my understanding of Aikido, as I do not define Aikido by its technical curriculum and/or by the techniques I alone have been introduced to via my "Aikido" training.

Indeed, there are better ways, and even right ways, of holding weapons, but gripping a weapon for dear life is a very common practice under life-threatening conditions. And, again, that was a point I was trying to make as well: The dynamic fulcrum disarms do not fair as well against a softer grip than as for a tight grip.

Yes, freestyle training should allow for uke to do whatever, as it would allow for nage to do whatever (though I am guessing my "whatever" and your "whatever" are different per our understandings of how one should define "Aikido"). However, this is waza training - hence, uke is asked to stay with the prescribed idealized attack (i.e. energy print).

Again, the disarm is not happening after the thrust, but in the midst of the thrust. I'm not a fan of doing things that require uke to leave their arm hanging out at the end of their movement so nage's "whatever" can proceed. Assuming the disarm is happening in the midst of the thrust, I would never put all my eggs in one basket, period. So, I might try for it and if not successful, I've still cleared the line and created other possibilities. In the same way, I would not put all my eggs into knocking the guy out with a strike or even slowing him down, as I would not put all my eggs into my accuracy and effectiveness regarding an eye poke, etc. For me, fighting is fighting. You do what you have do, as you do what you can.

In my life, I've been attacked three times with a knife - once as a civilian, and twice on duty. These do not make up the whole of "reality" - not by far. So I'm not out to universalize anything. In one case, I went for the dynamic fulcrum and it worked. In one case, I went for the wrist grab that ended with a dynamic fulcrum, and it worked. In the last case, I pinned the knife during the draw, got a whole of the wrist and did the standard Aikido prying to disarm, and it worked.

In all cases, I was lucky. But that is what training is about: Making ourselves "lucky" during fights.

d

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Old 03-17-2011, 03:36 PM   #38
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

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Duane Garvin wrote: View Post
I found these on youtube (I got tired of looking and settled on these):

I found the following one had a couple examples of tsuki knife takeaways that appear to be far less risky IMO (the first couple of techniques.. the kotegaeshi has too large of a circle IMO but whatever works ( I also don't practice like the following either)):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBXUEU7nVYk
Yeah, these are the moves I think everyone should do that experiment I mentioned above prior to calling them not "too risky."

Experiment: Have your partner come in and thrust as fast as they can and immediately thrust again - see if you as nage can grab their wrist.

Note: One can do this against mune-tsuki and get the same insights/results.

Again, I'm not saying these moves in the above linked video are impossible to pull off, or that folks in reality don't ever leave their arms out like in tsuki training in Aikido, but I am unwilling to categorize them outside of the "too risky" category. For me, they remain well within it. The experiment I'm suggesting makes that point for me, and, I feel, for anyone else that tries the experiment.

d

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Old 03-17-2011, 03:38 PM   #39
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

David, I have really missed your posts.

Stay safe out there,
Best,
Ron

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Old 03-17-2011, 03:41 PM   #40
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

Ron, I hope that is a good thing. :-)

Thanks my friend - we are trying. Nationally, we are having a bad year. Almost an average of two LEO's killed per week. On one two day period last week, five had fallen from felonious assault. :-(

d

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Old 03-17-2011, 03:49 PM   #41
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

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I would not put all my eggs
d
At any given moment, there's only one basket in Aikido.

I agree status quo Aikido is not enough to achieve what O Sensei was doing, that's why the staff has to be faced.
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Old 03-17-2011, 04:45 PM   #42
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

I love these types of discussion where we can express our opinions without peoples ego's getting in the way!

Quote:
Experiment: Have your partner come in and thrust as fast as they can and immediately thrust again - see if you as nage can grab their wrist.
I am in total agreement! After we learned the standard/basic.. waza of the technique we (me and the higher ranking aikidoka) like to experiment with the technique via different attacks. I'll do the multiple tsuki thrusts in a row (next time at the dojo) but I don't think I'll get past the first one. The way we train is we always retract the fist/knife from a tsuki attack. I pity the fool who leaves their arm extended after the attack. As my sensei says "those are the guys you hope you fight (assuming you had to get into said fight)" . We also get off-line (irimi-tenkan) pretty darn fast too. It gets interesting when we start attacking each other with out a "set" attack.

One note though: I have learned to not "grab" the wrist on the initial attack. On techniques that usually require an initial grab, I tend to make my hand into a "C" shape so my hand will slide along the forearm but stop once it reaches the wrist. This way I can still react without having to worry about maintaining my grip or having to be extremely precise in my "grab".
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Old 03-17-2011, 06:08 PM   #43
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
This is one of the few methods for knife defense I find sensible if shtf, and its full of irimi spirit.
We should realize there are two points to "reality": 1) What makes reality "reality" is that anything can happen (i.e. Reality is Infinite Possibility); and 2) Since anything can happen, reality is equally marked by the known, the unknown, and the unknowable. Therefore, I think it is a step in the wrong direction to start talking about "reality" by starting to talk about what won't happen in reality.

There are some similarities between what the person in the above linked video has said and some of what I said above. However, we differ in that I do not universalize my experience at the cost of negating what is present in every human vs. human conflict: Fog (i.e. the unknown and the unknowable).

For example, while I may say IF you can run away, you should, I know that there are situations where perhaps you can't run way. This is why I chose to use the word "IF" - because there are times when you can't. For example, if you are attacked by a knife-wielding subject in your home during a home invasion incident and your family is home - running away is not an option; when you are in the military and you've been told to hold a line and combat has entered hand-to-hand range - running away is not an option; when you are a police officer fulfilling your duty and someone else's life is at risk - running away is not an option; when you are cornered and/or in a confined space - running away is not an option; etc. Therefore, while I would say one should run IF possible, I would NEVER go on to say that one NEVER needs to train for closing distances and/or the presence of gaps when defending against a knife because if such a gap should open and/or be present you should ALWAYS run away.

As I said above, in my life, I have been attacked three times by a knife-wielding subject - once as a civilian, and twice on duty. In none of those cases, was I afforded the opportunity to run. However, in all of those cases, a gap was present at the commencement. In one case, I was in a confined space with the opening out of the room on the other side of the attacker. In another case, I was in the process of closing the gap when the attack occurred. In the last case, the weapon was in the process of being drawn and to take advantage of the gap present by disengaging would have allowed that weapon to be drawn fully.

Though these all occurred in real life, I would never say that these make up the whole of reality, and thereby I now only train for when gaps are present in knife attacks. No. I know, and accept, that there is always a fog to combat, and that these examples then are at most just a part of reality - a possible expression of the unknown and the unknowable. Self-defense gurus should stop universalizing what they have faced. Moreover, they should stop identifying reality with what they imagine that would do if they were in the attacker's place. Leave reality to what it is: unknown and unknowable. Denying this is what is most delusional in the self-defense industry.

Techniques, etc., should stop aiming toward a one-to-one matching of self-defense scenario and tactical response. The practice of technique is not about this type of matching. Technique training is about the acquisition of skill sets - skills sets that you may use entirely, combine, bend, warp, deconstruct, modify, negate, partially use, etc., as dictated by the unknown and unknowable of reality. Technique training is not about dealing with reality in any kind of direct fashion, and scenario training can never put an end to the fog of combat. Look then to the acquisition of skill sets in your technique training - my motto. Yes, remain critical, but have that critical mind be constructive in nature.

Thus, when I look at techniques, I'm looking at them from a cost and benefit point of view. I’m interested in the economy of the technique. Thereby, from the onset, I accept the technique as it is presented. Then, I look to see under what circumstances it remains viable (i.e. it does what it is supposed to do), and I look under what circumstances it fails (i.e. it does not do what it is supposed to do). Then, in my practice, and in life applications, I try to keep that given technique within its economic range.

Looking at this technique in this video, I would say it's a good one whenever you are in close and tight AND your two-hand grab is able to maintain a mechanical advantage over the attacker's single arm (holding the knife). However, I am not ever going to say that you will always been in tight when a knife attack comes because you can always run away when you are not in tight.

And, in looking where the given technique may fail, I would note that there are a lot of fog-produced elements that make one unable to maintain the needed mechanical advantage over the suspect's arm once grabbed. For example, some things, things that are unknown and unknowable at the time of practice, and that can take away from your mechanical advantage over the attacker's single arm are: He/she is stronger than you regardless of you having two arms against their one arm; He/she is skilled at generating leverage with their single appendages; He/she is armed with another weapon in their other hand; He/she has an accomplice in the attack; You are on bad footing or wearing bad footwear; etc.

Hence, for me, this technique is best suited for times when you are up close and tight, can't run (for whatever reason), are unarmed yourself, the attacker only has one weapon in one hand, no accomplice is present, you are on good footing, wearing good footwear, the attacker is unskilled at manipulating leverage, and the attacker is close to being weaker than you. When I look at the technique this way, I see that like all techniques it has a very limited practicality. I accept this. This is life. Thus, I can say, it is good for where it is suited, but its far from good enough to stop training in other tactics that equally have a chance to be part of reality.

For me, whenever I see or hear an instructor start talking about reality and what it doesn't consist of, I don't think they've been in many real situations themselves. For me, it's a red flag, and I think it should be one for everyone.

d

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-17-2011, 06:12 PM   #44
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

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Duane Garvin wrote: View Post
I love these types of discussion where we can express our opinions without peoples ego's getting in the way!

I am in total agreement! After we learned the standard/basic.. waza of the technique we (me and the higher ranking aikidoka) like to experiment with the technique via different attacks. I'll do the multiple tsuki thrusts in a row (next time at the dojo) but I don't think I'll get past the first one. The way we train is we always retract the fist/knife from a tsuki attack. I pity the fool who leaves their arm extended after the attack. As my sensei says "those are the guys you hope you fight (assuming you had to get into said fight)" . We also get off-line (irimi-tenkan) pretty darn fast too. It gets interesting when we start attacking each other with out a "set" attack.

One note though: I have learned to not "grab" the wrist on the initial attack. On techniques that usually require an initial grab, I tend to make my hand into a "C" shape so my hand will slide along the forearm but stop once it reaches the wrist. This way I can still react without having to worry about maintaining my grip or having to be extremely precise in my "grab".
This matches my experience too: It's fast to start with a kind of C trap and find the grab as the technique progresses. I agree.

I'll try and film this experiment myself and get it up for you ASAP. Unfortunately, that might be four days from now. I appreciate the patience.

thanks,
d

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-17-2011, 07:17 PM   #45
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

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We should realize there are two points to "reality": 1) What makes reality "reality" is that anything can happen (i.e. Reality is Infinite Possibility); and 2) Since anything can happen, reality is equally marked by the known, the unknown, and the unknowable. Therefore, I think it is a step in the wrong direction to start talking about "reality" by starting to talk about what won't happen in reality.
Excellent premise to learning various ways to do techniques. I have no argument about "adding tools to the tool-belt". That being said, I believe certain techniques can be inherently dangerous and other techniques may have a larger "safety margin". The technique that keeps popping in my mind is knife disarm III (3). I watched it several times and notice that you do get off line first but I keep seeing myself getting impaled by the knife. I'll need to practice it so I can have a better feel for the technique and not just comment in a speculative fashion. I guess my biggest perceived problem is the lack of any margin for error.

Also knife disarm 2 appears to run the risk of slicing up my bicep. Again, this is speculation and I'll have to practice it but it definitely has that appearance.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:55 AM   #46
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

Hello David,
I have some comments on tanto disarming video. I know you asked for video, but I can't do it for now, sorry.

From my point of view, I generally like what you are doing. However there are some points I see it differently.
First it is an initial distance. Uke can't run to attack nage from 10 meters (that number is of course intentional exaggeration from my part..). The closest range of tanto attack is a length of arm + length of tanto. The attacks should start VERY close to this range.

My second point is, your main attention seems to be a point, where attacker holds his tanto. So in the moment of the contact you are still in front of him, trying to deflect it on the wrist level. And your hips are not moving out of attack line in the moment of the contact. From my point of view, it is a serious mistake. My attention is always a center of attacker. In some sense I don't go too much in the beginning for the weapon. The reason behind is I may see very early the beginning of the attack or not, we don't know. I'd say 99% cases I will see attack very late. I also don't know he will retract his arm or not…So I like deflecting (not stop or block) attack on elbow level WHILE I'm moving very deep behind of attacker IN ONE STEP.

My goal is to establish right position (attacker in front of me, but I'm not in front of him) before attempting to do any technique. This way whatever he does next with tanto is not so important, because I have advantage of position and can lead him in accordance with his intention.

Nagababa

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Old 03-18-2011, 04:17 PM   #47
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hello David,
I have some comments on tanto disarming video. I know you asked for video, but I can't do it for now, sorry.

From my point of view, I generally like what you are doing. However there are some points I see it differently.
First it is an initial distance. Uke can't run to attack nage from 10 meters (that number is of course intentional exaggeration from my part..). The closest range of tanto attack is a length of arm + length of tanto. The attacks should start VERY close to this range.

My second point is, your main attention seems to be a point, where attacker holds his tanto. So in the moment of the contact you are still in front of him, trying to deflect it on the wrist level. And your hips are not moving out of attack line in the moment of the contact. From my point of view, it is a serious mistake. My attention is always a center of attacker. In some sense I don't go too much in the beginning for the weapon. The reason behind is I may see very early the beginning of the attack or not, we don't know. I'd say 99% cases I will see attack very late. I also don't know he will retract his arm or not…So I like deflecting (not stop or block) attack on elbow level WHILE I'm moving very deep behind of attacker IN ONE STEP.

My goal is to establish right position (attacker in front of me, but I'm not in front of him) before attempting to do any technique. This way whatever he does next with tanto is not so important, because I have advantage of position and can lead him in accordance with his intention.
Regarding the initial distance being "10 meters":

Please note that I am suggesting a specific way of looking at technique training - that I am looking at the acquisition of skill sets and not the matching of a self-defense scenario considered to be in a one-on-one relationship with "reality" and a given tactical response thought to be appropriate and thereby be "realistic."

Thus, for me, the starting distance is not so important in technique training. It is more a matter of practical coincidences than anything else. Meaning, uke comes in from wherever circumstances had them come in from - maybe the knife went flying across the mat from the last rep, hence, uke may be a little further back from nage when they start to zero in on the thrust. Or, maybe the knife from the last rep was handed over to uke by nage, so the zeroing in process happens from a closer range. Etc. Regardless, there is a maai that is associated with these skill sets, and the acquiring of these skills sets can only begin once that maai has been generated. Hence, sometimes nage has to wait a bit longer for an uke that started zeroing in from further out in order for uke to generate the required maai, and sometimes nage has to start immediately for that to happen if uke already had the maai when they were first given the knife. Either way, you don't move till the maai is generated.

Additionally, as I said above, I'm very much against trying to learn skill sets that are deemed "real" under the ruse of determining "reality" beforehand by negating what skills sets a person might know nothing about because they were deemed not part of "reality." Thus, I am not overly concerned with how far out a given uke might start his/her zeroing in for the tsuki in dojo practice, since I'm only concerned with where/when the required maai is generated. Moreover, I am also not overly concerned with an uke that might start out from "10 meters" (understood as an exaggeration for the reasons of making a point) because reality can very much include such an attack. In fact, my knife defense situation as a civilian, in which I was able to perform the knife disarm number one, was pretty much an exact copy of the so-called "stupid Aikido" knife attack: the attacker from the usual distance trying to stick a knife through my gut. Again, the exit was on the other side of the attacker, and there was no space in the room to run around. And, believe it or not, but you can't tell an attacker that wants to stick a knife through you that he/she should stop because they are doing it wrong, or not as good as they could be doing it, that they are too far and should be closer before they attack, or that they are holding the knife too tight and should be holding it more loose, etc. Go figure.

Regarding clearing the line of attack:

I think if you watch the video at 2:07, 2:14, and 4:14, you can see that the line of attack is cleared to the outside. One should not be staying on the line of attack to perform these disarms. One moves forward with the standard irimi angle (i.e. "attacker in front of me, but I'm not in front of him"). Remember, however, one only has to clear the width of the blade initially and then the knife-arm shoulder according to whatever technique one is employing. The clearing of the line is thus minimal but present nonetheless.

Please allow me to comment on something I think might be a bit confusing: In my experience, while it may appear that disarm III is the more risky and/or the one that might clear the line the least, if one were to try these disarms, one would see that disarm III is the easiest to pull off successfully and safely out of the group.

In disarm three one clears the knife and the same side shoulder entirely. If one misses the wrist trap, the knife simply continues in the thrust and one is to the outside front back corner of the attacker. What one is trying to do in disarm III is not walk head-on toward the knife but rather to let it go by and then to pull the arm into one's chest. Once the knife is trapped on one's chest, nage enters to the tenchi nage omote angle of attack. Since that entering requires a turning of the hips, the trap becomes a disarm. As the disarm proceeds, the knife stays inside the trap. Because the trap has one's chest to the outside of the knife, as one enters, AT NO TIME is nage in front of the knife. Throughout the movement, nage's chest stays in the same contact relationship to the knife. Again, if folks try this disarm, try to learn them, he/she will see, it is the surest, safest, of the three.

Thanks,
d

What about a video of someone else doing what you are saying - just for the sake of understanding???

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:10 PM   #48
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

Underneath, I have been thinking about something else. It has bothered me for quite a while now.

It starts like this:

Kihon Waza is a training in basics. Basics by default assume the presence of non-basic material, what is commonly referred to as advanced material. Think of it like this: You can't have a basement until you have a first floor above it. You can't have basic material until you have advanced material. As the point of a basement is to build upon it, the (or at least a) point of basic material is to build upon it.

So, when you talk about basic material, it begs the question: What is the advanced material? What are Aikidoka building when they build upon their basic material?

For most of us, advanced material has become a matter of doing basic material faster or harder. For a few of us, advanced material has become a matter of cultivating the inner essences of basic material. Still, while I can understand that there is a sophistication involved with these things, I still see these things as a cultivation of basic material - as basic, as a basement. There's no expanding; there is only a reinforcing. True, that reinforcing is necessary, but it cannot be equating to an expanding of basic material.

One might ask, "Why is this an issue?" One might say, "Folks can do a lot with basic structures once they have mastered Aiki or Kokyu or once they have become fast and strong." "What is lacking?"

Well, I think, one can learn a lot about basements when they are put to the task of having to built upon it. I think when you have to build, for example, 50 stories on top of a basement, you not only come to learn new things about basements, but you also come to learn essential things about basements.

In the same way, when you are expected to build upon, expand upon, your basic material, you come to gain new insight into that material. For that reason, if we are truly valuing basic material, it seems it is in our interest to attempt to generate something "advance" - something where we take a basic construct and use it to build something else, something more complex, something more detailed, something more difficult to construct, something more dynamic, etc.

That's how I came upon these knife disarms. While these dynamic fulcrum disarms are performed all over the place, the mechanics therein are also found in Aikido basic waza.

For example, Disarm I is merely a dynamic version of the mechanics used to pry the knife out uke's arm at the conclusion of tanto-dori tsuki kote-gaeshi. Disarm II is the same te-sabaki from hanmi-handachi katate-dori shiho nage omote. And, Disarm III employs the same mechanics of kote-gaeshi.

Now, I'm not saying one should not train in basics. Nor am I saying that the essences of basics can be done without. Both of these things are of the utmost priority. However, equally, should be our quest to be able to understand our basics to a point where we can employ them in new and expanded ways.

I offer this here, because, in my opinion, the biggest problem facing Aikido as a martial art and as a spiritual path today is that it is experiencing what I call a "museum death." Think of an ancient water pot that was excavated and stuck in a museum - where the pot is admired and studied for a whole bunch of other reasons that had nothing to do with why it was first admired - where the pot is never again used for carrying water. In that museum death, the pot, that was once used to carry life, is now partitioned off from life. It is killed - it dies a museum death and it does so in the name of preservation.

Sometimes, when we never look to expand upon our basic material, we end up with a fetishism of that material. In that fetishism, we end up killing our art, and often in the name of preservation. We in turn study our art for a whole bunch of reasons that had nothing to do with the art when it was a alive. In turn, we all become art critics and museum curators - a kind of sub-group of martial artists, hardly warriors.

That seems problematic to me.

dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:29 PM   #49
Ron Tisdale
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

Some styles can be very susceptable to that reification, David.

Nice post.

Best,
Ron

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Old 03-21-2011, 10:31 AM   #50
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Re: YouTube: Senshin Center New Video

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Regarding the initial distance being "10 meters":

Please note that I am suggesting a specific way of looking at technique training - that I am looking at the acquisition of skill sets and not the matching of a self-defense scenario considered to be in a one-on-one relationship with "reality" and a given tactical response thought to be appropriate and thereby be "realistic."

Thus, for me, the starting distance is not so important in technique training. It is more a matter of practical coincidences than anything else. Meaning, uke comes in from wherever circumstances had them come in from - maybe the knife went flying across the mat from the last rep, hence, uke may be a little further back from nage when they start to zero in on the thrust. Or, maybe the knife from the last rep was handed over to uke by nage, so the zeroing in process happens from a closer range. Etc. Regardless, there is a maai that is associated with these skill sets, and the acquiring of these skills sets can only begin once that maai has been generated. Hence, sometimes nage has to wait a bit longer for an uke that started zeroing in from further out in order for uke to generate the required maai, and sometimes nage has to start immediately for that to happen if uke already had the maai when they were first given the knife. Either way, you don't move till the maai is generated.

Additionally, as I said above, I'm very much against trying to learn skill sets that are deemed "real" under the ruse of determining "reality" beforehand by negating what skills sets a person might know nothing about because they were deemed not part of "reality." Thus, I am not overly concerned with how far out a given uke might start his/her zeroing in for the tsuki in dojo practice, since I'm only concerned with where/when the required maai is generated. Moreover, I am also not overly concerned with an uke that might start out from "10 meters" (understood as an exaggeration for the reasons of making a point) because reality can very much include such an attack. In fact, my knife defense situation as a civilian, in which I was able to perform the knife disarm number one, was pretty much an exact copy of the so-called "stupid Aikido" knife attack: the attacker from the usual distance trying to stick a knife through my gut. Again, the exit was on the other side of the attacker, and there was no space in the room to run around. And, believe it or not, but you can't tell an attacker that wants to stick a knife through you that he/she should stop because they are doing it wrong, or not as good as they could be doing it, that they are too far and should be closer before they attack, or that they are holding the knife too tight and should be holding it more loose, etc. Go figure.

Regarding clearing the line of attack:

I think if you watch the video at 2:07, 2:14, and 4:14, you can see that the line of attack is cleared to the outside. One should not be staying on the line of attack to perform these disarms. One moves forward with the standard irimi angle (i.e. "attacker in front of me, but I'm not in front of him"). Remember, however, one only has to clear the width of the blade initially and then the knife-arm shoulder according to whatever technique one is employing. The clearing of the line is thus minimal but present nonetheless.

Please allow me to comment on something I think might be a bit confusing: In my experience, while it may appear that disarm III is the more risky and/or the one that might clear the line the least, if one were to try these disarms, one would see that disarm III is the easiest to pull off successfully and safely out of the group.

In disarm three one clears the knife and the same side shoulder entirely. If one misses the wrist trap, the knife simply continues in the thrust and one is to the outside front back corner of the attacker. What one is trying to do in disarm III is not walk head-on toward the knife but rather to let it go by and then to pull the arm into one's chest. Once the knife is trapped on one's chest, nage enters to the tenchi nage omote angle of attack. Since that entering requires a turning of the hips, the trap becomes a disarm. As the disarm proceeds, the knife stays inside the trap. Because the trap has one's chest to the outside of the knife, as one enters, AT NO TIME is nage in front of the knife. Throughout the movement, nage's chest stays in the same contact relationship to the knife. Again, if folks try this disarm, try to learn them, he/she will see, it is the surest, safest, of the three.

Thanks,
d

What about a video of someone else doing what you are saying - just for the sake of understanding???
I agree that Nage has to be able to deal with an attack from any distance. However why the initial distance is very important, particularly for black belt level - because from such exaggerated distance in most cases the attacker will over commit (that is clearly visible on the video). This automatic over commitment allows Nage to develop a false technique - Nage will never learn how to create an opening in the attack (I.E. lead attacker to over commit his attack) as in every attack the opening already exist. It will build also false confidence in Nage mind as he becomes comfortable. And being comfortable in front of armed attacker is a deadly situation.

I believe there are clearly distinctive initial distances for jo, bokken, tanto and empty hand techniques. So mixing this distances means for me misunderstanding of martial context of encounter.

I wrote nothing about any kind of ‘reality' in the context of tanto training.

You wrote about "trapping the knife'. I think it is physically impossible to do without large over commitment of attacker AND his passive behavior after failed attack. That is the reason why I prefer to stick to the principle of controlling attacker center by using his elbow (or shoulder for example). I see a tanto as merely extension of his body so it can't be a main goal of the technique.

Nagababa

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