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Old 03-09-2011, 03:07 PM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

At your own risk.
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:10 PM   #27
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

I'll have to read up more, but is it correct to say the use of asymptote is directly related to the effects of "limit" in calculus? Isn't it just describing limits with respect to geometry of motion (spirals, etc.)? One analogous movement being to keep aite at the very limits of stability in order to maintain control; maintaining some space along the continuum in which, theoretically, aite can approach but never touch?
That's how I've been applying the term...for what little I've been paying attention to it. I have no clear idea what it denotes and my calculus classes were a decade ago and bastardized by years of irrational poetry writing.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 03-09-2011 at 03:13 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:25 PM   #28
Keith Larman
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Wikipedia's page is actually quite good.

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Old 03-10-2011, 05:10 AM   #29
danj
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post

Have any other physicists read this book, and if so do they have any comments on it?

Alex
Radio physics was my game before getting into sports engineering. Agree its tough to use physics to explain aikido, probably something derivative like biomechanics is better suited?

Haven't read the book as yet but agree with Mark's 'fingernails on a chalk board thing'

From what I read in the sample, and looking past the jargon, I got a koan or two from it which is often gold if its what you need at the time.

Mark looking forward to your review...

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Old 03-10-2011, 05:34 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
In both my aikido training and my yoga practice right now, I am working on things like freeing the shoulder blades and linking them to my spine, and feeling connections between the soles of my feet and my hips. Of course physics explains these things perfectly well, but it doesn't help me to relax and to cultivate awareness in my body - if anything, engaging my logical, rational brain has the opposite effect!
Hi Alex,

I agree, for me the progress I make in aikido is down to my own internal awarenes of what my mind and body are doing in the moment. There is no time for rational logical thought, it just gets in the way.

There is a place for the rational intellect though, when it comes to trying to explain to another what your understanding is, of what is happening. But the more complex the explanation, the less people there will be to understand you. And those that do understand, then only have an intellectual understanding and not the deep mind/body knowing that is required to actually 'do' something.

My understanding of quantum physics is sketchy at best, but I am not averse to using an aspect of it in my teaching. As far as I am aware- a wave is a particle is a wave, it is either or, depending on the moment it is 'looked' at. I try to explain that the aikido mind/body is like this, either solid or liquid depending on the moment of engagement, it works for me anyway

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-10-2011, 06:49 AM   #31
mrlizard123
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

From the excerpts available on the website it sounds to me like there might be some interesting concepts but wrapped in difficult terminology though I'll not comment their it's accuracy as I'd be stepping outside my pay-grade in terms of physics knowledge.

I can get some of what is meant (I think) from the discussion of asymptotes but that doesn't mean that I think the terminology itself is accurate or appropriate.

Being stood where uke is unable to reach you, moving in such a fashion as to always be "one step ahead" due to a limitation in their ability to move; this makes some sense but whether that is what is intended or not I can't be sure based on the use of complicated terms.

Whether these terms add or detract from the message I guess would be revealed if I read the whole book and compared "notes" with someone with a greater understanding of the terms used.

If someone wants to mail me a copy I'll happily read it

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:05 AM   #32
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Jonathan,

Are you interested in learning the technical principles of Aikido?
If anyone is interested in learning Aikido principles why not simply practice?Is it necessary to sit and read articles of the type to understand in a practical sense something like Kote Gaeshi? Aikido is not rocket science . Imo these books are no more than coffee table ornaments. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:12 AM   #33
Mark Freeman
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
If anyone is interested in learning Aikido principles why not simply practice?
Now don't go getting all reactionary on us Joe!

Surely it's better to endlessly discuss the text, the syntax, the punctuation and the typeface of the complicated words than to do something as daft as getting onto the mat and working it out there!

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:07 AM   #34
Keith Larman
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Since when is practicing and reading about something mutually exclusive? Okay, not happening at the exact same time, but I'm pretty sure most of you aren't on the mat for all your waking hours. I'm sure at least a few of you aren't on constant alert, practicing continuously and might actually do something like sit on the pot for a few minutes and read a book...

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Old 03-10-2011, 02:23 PM   #35
dps
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
might actually do something like sit on the pot for a few minutes and read a book...
Any longer than a few minutes my legs go numb and the cushioned seat sticks to my backside.

dps
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:52 PM   #36
JW
 
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Jonathan,

Are you interested in learning the technical principles of Aikido?
From a friend who doesn't know much about aikido? No. From someone who I believe for one reason or another to have a very rich and illuminating understanding to share? Yes.
My question was more straightforward, because I don't know anything about Read sensei other than what opinions have been shared on this board.
The question rephrased: if there are 5 people with fancy words publishing books, and none of them are directly related (in terms of budo-lineage) to anyone I know, and I have not felt any of them.. what criteria might I use to choose which of the 5 authors is on the money? I have lots of fancy terms I made up. Should anyone trust me? Just because attenuated activation of asymptotes using level 25 resonators sounds fancy, should I buy your (hypothetical) book?
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Old 03-11-2011, 08:56 AM   #37
Tenyu
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
From someone who I believe for one reason or another to have a very rich and illuminating understanding to share? Yes.
My question was more straightforward, because I don't know anything about Read sensei other than what opinions have been shared on this board.
Have you been to his website and read it? Have you read the excerpts he's made available online?

Quote:
The question rephrased: if there are 5 people with fancy words publishing books, and none of them are directly related (in terms of budo-lineage) to anyone I know, and I have not felt any of them.. what criteria might I use to choose which of the 5 authors is on the money?
Are there four other books discussing the fundamental physical principles of Aikido? Have you not read any Aikido books other than what your teacher or your teacher's teacher have written? When I first started Aikido I saw Sunadomari's presentation in the Aikido Journal video. I liked it so I bought his book which I enjoyed. I don't know anyone from that lineage nor did I ever take ukemi from him. He passed away last year. Hypothetically, if O Sensei were unknown, and you saw a video of his work, would you ignore what he had to say because no one else you know knew of him?

Quote:
Should anyone trust me?
If you don't back up your descriptions with any evidence, I wouldn't.
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Old 03-12-2011, 05:39 AM   #38
dps
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

From;

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...059#post276059

in terminology that I understand,

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
The theoretical foundation of aikido and its mastery is very simple and can be taught in precision much like music theory, practicing and achieving it is a different story of course. Nage cannot violate the implicit demand nor the harmonic resonant frequency of uke(or the staff if one wishes to practice O Sensei's aikibojitsu) as the universe is governed by natural law. So in technical terms nage is bound by uke's frequency, nage has no choice in the path, timing, and energy to respond with in order to find the truly unassailable position. The relationship between uke and nage is mapped out by the following graphs where nage is the sine wave(the initial point being 0 completely neutral) and uke is the cosine wave(the intial point being 1 manifesting attack).







If nage is absolutely non-resistant(yet grounded) then nage will always lead uke with a 90 degree phase shift in time, where uke has no potential for kaeshiwaza and nage has the option of presenting uke with a throw at 90, 270, 450, 630 degrees, and so on which can all be a terminal point in nage's expression of peak intensity during that particular cycle. Essentially uke has to deal with infinity then if nage chooses the exponential over linear path. In practice, uke doesn't have to worry too much about it because gravity will eventually bring uke down from the throw, however far that may be, and flying through the air is a much better alternative than having to run into nage's fist. My sensei tells me during his prime his staff would literally break in half from striking hyperbolically to nothing more than an asympototic plane in the air. Mastering aikido requires an understanding of the universe. Hikitsuchi Sensei said if your heart is not correct your technique cannot be correct, if you do not practice masakatsu agatsu then you will either consciously or unconsciously impose your personal desires hence resistance into the pre-determined preformal role of nage. Modern society teaches us freedom lies in having choices, while aikido teaches us freedom lies in understanding the universe already made the choices for us while giving us the ability to manifest them totally non-resistively and beautifully. It's no surprise the martial aspect is such a small subset of aikido, it's religion by definition.

Regards,
Tenyu "the aikido geek" Hamaki
When two waves meet you get a third resultant wave that is a different phase and amplitude of the original waves. The resultant wave is dependent on the phase and amplitude difference of the two original waves.

Using the following website could you point out the resultant wave form?

http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/...rposition.html

dps
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:38 PM   #39
dps
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

So the two people who endorse this book are;


Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post

The most important book on Aikido ever written.

and

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
In the same way folks had a hard time understanding the Founder, this book is HUGE in its conception and it takes work to digest.

I do not think that reading this book will make your Aikido better.
dps

Last edited by dps : 03-14-2011 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:30 PM   #40
Tenyu
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
From;

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...059#post276059

in terminology that I understand,

When two waves meet you get a third resultant wave that is a different phase and amplitude of the original waves. The resultant wave is dependent on the phase and amplitude difference of the two original waves.

Using the following website could you point out the resultant wave form?

http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/...rposition.html

dps
David,

None of those superpositions are optimal to Aikido because they all introduce resistance. The graph in the book represents only one waveform in real life application, not two. It's nage's job to initiate and lead, with respect to uke's inertial reactance, the same waveform uke's bound to from the very beginning. The sine and cosine in the book represent nage's relative power locations in time(90 deg, the fixed point of non-resistance) ahead of uke's along the exact same waveform.

I realize there's a lot of focus in non-Aikido internal arts to succeed through buckling and compromising uke's integrity, but these actions both in theory and practice create a fundamentally flawed separation(please read Ascent of Humanity in Open Topics) with multiple discordant waveforms between nage and uke. If it's not obvious chaos is the last thing nage wants in a martial interaction. If one's in danger, then nage will do whatever necessary including compromising uke's integrity, but that's easy for any beginner to learn and should rarely be the focus in the practice of Internal Aikido. The psychology and intent we train most of the time in the dojo is the same one we want to be applying in our daily lives.

We already have a global culture and infrastructure today, politically, economically, socially embracing this disrespect for uke's integrity, primal violence, desire to segregate the other through every means possible. People ‘succeed' by subjugating the other, might makes right, but no one's ever apart from their actions. We are what we do. A firm foundation and grounding in the Infinite cannot co-exist that way. The root source of all of humanity's problems can be traced back to normalizing disconnection with the Infinite.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:36 PM   #41
Keith Larman
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
... The root source of all of humanity's problems can be traced back to normalizing disconnection with the Infinite.
Hmmm, I would think that sometimes a trombone rejoices, but a stalactite around a somnambulist always accidentally gives secret financial aid to the midwife! Most people believe that some espadrille steals pencils from a saintly marzipan, but they need to remember how non-chalantly a cup meditates. Toscanini, the friend of the Interloper and Jespera, returns home with the hand about the haunch. When another labyrinth goes to sleep, a cleavage ruminates.

Obviously I'm getting a migraine...

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Old 03-14-2011, 07:07 PM   #42
danj
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

One of the benefits of a western scientific approach, such as probably adopted by the book in question is a reductionist approach i.e. lets make things simplier so we can get our head around some ideas and learn something.

Having presented a sine/cosine analogy (its quite nice by the way) its important to recognise that
1. when discussing an analogy, recognise its limits, at some point all analogies cease to be useful. This is usually the point where they introduce more complexity....which would seem to be the case here
2. when discussing a concept its important to not wander onto other topics without dealing with the first one completely, this is especially important if it is the foundation for later ideas.

hopes this helps.. and keen to hear thoughts

best,
dan

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
David,

None of those superpositions are optimal to Aikido because they all introduce resistance. The graph in the book represents only one waveform in real life application, not two. It's nage's job to initiate and lead, with respect to uke's inertial reactance, the same waveform uke's bound to from the very beginning. The sine and cosine in the book represent nage's relative power locations in time(90 deg, the fixed point of non-resistance) ahead of uke's along the exact same waveform.

I realize there's a lot of focus in non-Aikido internal arts to succeed through buckling and compromising uke's integrity, but these actions both in theory and practice create a fundamentally flawed separation(please read Ascent of Humanity in Open Topics) with multiple discordant waveforms between nage and uke. If it's not obvious chaos is the last thing nage wants in a martial interaction. If one's in danger, then nage will do whatever necessary including compromising uke's integrity, but that's easy for any beginner to learn and should rarely be the focus in the practice of Internal Aikido. The psychology and intent we train most of the time in the dojo is the same one we want to be applying in our daily lives.

We already have a global culture and infrastructure today, politically, economically, socially embracing this disrespect for uke's integrity, primal violence, desire to segregate the other through every means possible. People ‘succeed' by subjugating the other, might makes right, but no one's ever apart from their actions. We are what we do. A firm foundation and grounding in the Infinite cannot co-exist that way. The root source of all of humanity's problems can be traced back to normalizing disconnection with the Infinite.

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Old 03-14-2011, 07:59 PM   #43
Tenyu
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
1. when discussing an analogy, recognise its limits, at some point all analogies cease to be useful. This is usually the point where they introduce more complexity....which would seem to be the case here

dan
Dan,

The graph isn't an analogy, it directly represents the relationship of power between nage and uke. I think what the graph informs of Aikido is very simple. I wrote a little more clarification in post #291 in my long introductory thread. Please let me know what you find confusing about it.
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:46 AM   #44
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Any longer than a few minutes my legs go numb and the cushioned seat sticks to my backside.

dps
David,
What are you doing sitting on my comfy toilet seat???? Joe
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Old 03-15-2011, 04:01 AM   #45
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Now don't go getting all reactionary on us Joe!

Surely it's better to endlessly discuss the text, the syntax, the punctuation and the typeface of the complicated words than to do something as daft as getting onto the mat and working it out there!
Dear Mark,
i would suggest that sitting for hours clutching a dictionary, Physics /Maths books would be less tiring physically than doing a hard session at the dojo.Armchair Aikido is really good. My own reading is limited to the Dandy, the Beano , Batman and a well thumbed 1957 copy of Health and Efficiency.The last book is read avidly for purely educational purposes only!!
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:41 AM   #46
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
David,
What are you doing sitting on my comfy toilet seat???? Joe
Sometimes it is the only place I can go and have some quiet and read a book.

Mine's not heated is yours.

David
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Old 03-15-2011, 05:46 PM   #47
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Hmmm, I would think that sometimes a trombone rejoices, but a stalactite around a somnambulist always accidentally gives secret financial aid to the midwife! Most people believe that some espadrille steals pencils from a saintly marzipan, but they need to remember how non-chalantly a cup meditates. Toscanini, the friend of the Interloper and Jespera, returns home with the hand about the haunch. When another labyrinth goes to sleep, a cleavage ruminates.

Obviously I'm getting a migraine...
Dear Keith,
Instead of you getting a migraine having read your comments I think your giving me a migraine. Just joking. Love your article. Great example of extracting the urine.
Joe.
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Old 03-16-2011, 05:27 PM   #48
Mark Kruger
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Given the graph, how can you throw somebody at 450 degrees or 630 degrees given that both uke and nage approach infinite contraction or de-contraction at 270 degrees?

Given the graph, where are the sine and cosine waves? Sine and cosine plots are smooth and continuous. Both lines that are plotted have a discontinuity at t=270.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 03-16-2011, 06:29 PM   #49
Tenyu
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Mark,

The graph above is only an example specific to when nage finishes the technique with the second power application. Nage can finish with the first, second, third, or so on although I personally don't recommend having four or more in regular taijitsu practice. Here's the other graph, which isn't showing in the original post anymore for some reason, showing just the phase lead:

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Old 03-16-2011, 07:31 PM   #50
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Mark Kruger wrote: View Post
Given the graph, how can you throw somebody at 450 degrees or 630 degrees given that both uke and nage approach infinite contraction or de-contraction at 270 degrees?

Given the graph, where are the sine and cosine waves? Sine and cosine plots are smooth and continuous. Both lines that are plotted have a discontinuity at t=270.
Dear Mark,
Physics etc was never my strong point but geometry states that 360degrees is a circle? Where does Tenyu get his 630 degrees from unless of course he does more than one [ in Aikido terms ] rotational movement?Having said that why would anyone want to rotate more than 360 degrees anyway?Ice skaters may do multiple rotational movements but these are just 360 degrees multiplied by the number of rotations they do.I have yet to see a compass/protractor that can draw /measure 630 degrees. Cheers, Joe.
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