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Old 03-10-2011, 12:13 PM   #176
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?ne...layer_embedded

This Youtube clip requires verification of age 18 + to view.

Takemusu this. The victim is in a jail holding cell after being arrested for driving with a suspended license. The assailant lands 62 punches over the course of 19 minutes before police/guards intervene.

There is limited room to maneuver, and the victim can't run away or otherwise escape; the assailant, a known gang member later found to be clinically insane, is substantially bigger, stronger, and more aggressive to the point of predation; another man in the holding cell may or may not have been an ally of the assailant, but in any event did not intervene.

"Reality" is a very big word. Aikido, like any martial art, may face a wide range of self-defense situations.

This incident happened in 2004. A newspaper article can be found here: http://www.rblandmark.com/main.asp?S...53&TM=83157.89
 
Old 03-10-2011, 12:34 PM   #177
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?ne...layer_embedded

This Youtube clip requires verification of age 18 + to view.

Takemusu this. The victim is in a jail holding cell after being arrested for driving with a suspended license. The assailant lands 62 punches over the course of 19 minutes before police/guards intervene.

There is limited room to maneuver, and the victim can't run away or otherwise escape; the assailant, a known gang member later found to be clinically insane, is substantially bigger, stronger, and more aggressive to the point of predation; another man in the holding cell may or may not have been an ally of the assailant, but in any event did not intervene.

"Reality" is a very big word. Aikido, like any martial art, may face a wide range of self-defense situations.

This incident happened in 2004. A newspaper article can be found here: http://www.rblandmark.com/main.asp?S...53&TM=83157.89
No one is completely safe.....
 
Old 03-10-2011, 01:19 PM   #178
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

This has been a very engaging thread for me, particularly the respective contributions of Messrs. Wagstaffe and Freeman. I recognize that points and disagreements may have been hashed out on previous threads (ad nauseum for some forum members), but I'm personally finding some good insights, freshly stated, that are not confined to aikido as a martial art. So thanks.
 
Old 03-10-2011, 01:21 PM   #179
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
No one is completely safe.....
Very true. There are circumstances under which anyone would be vulnerable, no matter how skilled, confident and aggressive. Lynn Seiser's observation early on in this thread about all training being an artifice rings very true in this regard. Honest self-assessment is keenly important.
 
Old 03-10-2011, 04:28 PM   #180
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Very true. There are circumstances under which anyone would be vulnerable, no matter how skilled, confident and aggressive. Lynn Seiser's observation early on in this thread about all training being an artifice rings very true in this regard. Honest self-assessment is keenly important.
As there are no absolutes......

This is something I always point out to all my students...

It's always good to thrash things out, without it there is a tendency to lead ourselves back into the delusion that so many feel safe in...
Reality checks are what keeps us thinking and learning and going that bit further to achieve.
Reality has certainly been my spur to keep alive that which I profess to learn and also teach in. I am not the worlds best aikidoka, but I certainly am a very rational one....
 
Old 03-10-2011, 07:55 PM   #181
Hellis
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
As there are no absolutes......

This is something I always point out to all my students...

It's always good to thrash things out, without it there is a tendency to lead ourselves back into the delusion that so many feel safe in...
Reality checks are what keeps us thinking and learning and going that bit further to achieve.
Reality has certainly been my spur to keep alive that which I profess to learn and also teach in. I am not the worlds best aikidoka, but I certainly am a very rational one....
Tony

It matters little how many techniques one knows, favourites or otherwise, how many have the bottle to put them into action ?
That is the gravey test.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
 
Old 03-10-2011, 08:40 PM   #182
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Tony

It matters little how many techniques one knows, favourites or otherwise, how many have the bottle to put them into action ?
That is the gravey test.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
Henry,
I have had to use my limited knowledge to do exactly that. At least I can say that my aikido has protected me on 99% of the assaults I have been unfortunate to encounter. Nobody is perfect and all the best techniques in the world will not protect anyone without having had that experience, so one cannot possibly know until one has. As you say that IS the gravy test....
It's easy to say this technique or that technique and what one would do, but the truth is it will not. The truth hurts..... bloody well hurts!!..... Amen..

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 03-10-2011 at 08:42 PM.
 
Old 03-11-2011, 09:29 AM   #183
jonreading
 
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

First, I think the our social advances have reduced the need for "protection" and that attitude flavors many perspectives on martial arts. I think other resources available to consumers now are better for protection. In the US we have a wide variety of self-defense tools, tactical workshops, security devices and other resources available to improve our safety in addition to our law enforcement services. Aikido (the martial art) is one of those resources. Arguably, there are better resources and tools but that is a different discussion.

I think aikido is a valid resource for self-defense. My experience with good aikido confirms my confidence aikdio works. I think those who practice aikido without a perspective that acknowledges the validity of aikido to work are missing not only an important part of the physical curriculum, but also the intellectual curriculum. I believe that part of our education is the transformation of our strategic reasoning and cognitive process to a tactical perspective. I think it is important that aikido people have confidence in their technique to work when assessing their strategic position; I think it is important for aikido people to understand their technique so they may apply the best tactic.

I think there are many in aikido who practice aikido as a hobby and will never mature their cognitive behavior because they do not want to; they are happy showing up and falling down. There have been several threads on these happy dojos and hobbyist aikido people.

The problem is now there are many of these hobbyists and they are damaging the integrity of the art.The problem is many of these hobbyists fancy themselves as doing more than exercise. Yoga, pilates and other exercise programs do not appeal to these individuals because those programs do not promote the fantasy of being a fighter. So we are left with a group of individuals who practice in a manner scarcely considered "martial" clinging to a namesake that includes "martial" in its title. And for the record, I am a big fan of yoga ( I do not mean to imply exercise programs are inferior to martial arts).

I think the challenge in aikido is re-introducing the curriculum that steers aikido back into a functioning art. I think we are on that road and we are starting to see a difference in the haves and have nots. I go to a seminar now and its more clear who knows and who does not. I hope pressure from the art (excelling) will challenge these remedial individuals to either pick up their pace or pack up their things.

Maybe we need a washout bell...
 
Old 03-11-2011, 09:44 AM   #184
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
First, I think the our social advances have reduced the need for "protection" and that attitude flavors many perspectives on martial arts. I think other resources available to consumers now are better for protection. In the US we have a wide variety of self-defense tools, tactical workshops, security devices and other resources available to improve our safety in addition to our law enforcement services. Aikido (the martial art) is one of those resources. Arguably, there are better resources and tools but that is a different discussion.

I think aikido is a valid resource for self-defense. My experience with good aikido confirms my confidence aikdio works. I think those who practice aikido without a perspective that acknowledges the validity of aikido to work are missing not only an important part of the physical curriculum, but also the intellectual curriculum. I believe that part of our education is the transformation of our strategic reasoning and cognitive process to a tactical perspective. I think it is important that aikido people have confidence in their technique to work when assessing their strategic position; I think it is important for aikido people to understand their technique so they may apply the best tactic.

I think there are many in aikido who practice aikido as a hobby and will never mature their cognitive behavior because they do not want to; they are happy showing up and falling down. There have been several threads on these happy dojos and hobbyist aikido people.

The problem is now there are many of these hobbyists and they are damaging the integrity of the art.The problem is many of these hobbyists fancy themselves as doing more than exercise. Yoga, pilates and other exercise programs do not appeal to these individuals because those programs do not promote the fantasy of being a fighter. So we are left with a group of individuals who practice in a manner scarcely considered "martial" clinging to a namesake that includes "martial" in its title. And for the record, I am a big fan of yoga ( I do not mean to imply exercise programs are inferior to martial arts).

I think the challenge in aikido is re-introducing the curriculum that steers aikido back into a functioning art. I think we are on that road and we are starting to see a difference in the haves and have nots. I go to a seminar now and its more clear who knows and who does not. I hope pressure from the art (excelling) will challenge these remedial individuals to either pick up their pace or pack up their things.

Maybe we need a washout bell...
Dear Jon,
While I agree with a few points in your blog I think that there is a place for the hobbyist in Aikido.If someone wants to use Aikido for fitness, health , emotional, meditative benefits why not?Aikido can also be used in a martial manner , but not everyone feels a need to be a top Aikidoka.Just the same as amateur boxers, not all of them want to be Mike Tyson for example.
Apart from that you need a core group of hobbyists to pay the bills.Thats why some dojos have children's classes or 'self defence/ conflict resolution class/or even therapeutic use of Aikido.
Personally I am happy if people find Aikido meaningful in their life however and whatever their motivation is for studying the Art
Joe.
 
Old 03-11-2011, 09:58 AM   #185
sakumeikan
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?ne...layer_embedded

This Youtube clip requires verification of age 18 + to view.

Takemusu this. The victim is in a jail holding cell after being arrested for driving with a suspended license. The assailant lands 62 punches over the course of 19 minutes before police/guards intervene.

There is limited room to maneuver, and the victim can't run away or otherwise escape; the assailant, a known gang member later found to be clinically insane, is substantially bigger, stronger, and more aggressive to the point of predation; another man in the holding cell may or may not have been an ally of the assailant, but in any event did not intervene.

"Reality" is a very big word. Aikido, like any martial art, may face a wide range of self-defense situations.

This incident happened in 2004. A newspaper article can be found here: http://www.rblandmark.com/main.asp?S...53&TM=83157.89
Hi,The guy who got clipped around the ear picked up not a bad little paycheque for 19 mins of pummelling.As far as the guards are concerned with a potential madman going at it , would you risk life and limb for the peanuts the warders get paid, and leap in like Batman to rescue the victim? Maybe the warders were waioting for the bruiser to punch himself out [like George Foreman/M.Ali fight]
before entering the lions den???
Maybe the bruiser was slightly miffed at something the victim said??One never knows. I bet the bloke does not drive around with a dodgy licence again in case lightning strikes twice.
 
Old 03-11-2011, 10:18 AM   #186
Anjisan
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Ki Symbol Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Jon,
While I agree with a few points in your blog I think that there is a place for the hobbyist in Aikido.If someone wants to use Aikido for fitness, health , emotional, meditative benefits why not?Aikido can also be used in a martial manner , but not everyone feels a need to be a top Aikidoka.Just the same as amateur boxers, not all of them want to be Mike Tyson for example.
Apart from that you need a core group of hobbyists to pay the bills.Thats why some dojos have children's classes or 'self defence/ conflict resolution class/or even therapeutic use of Aikido.
Personally I am happy if people find Aikido meaningful in their life however and whatever their motivation is for studying the Art
Joe.
My question has always been how are any of the "other" benefits lost or in any way diminished if one simply strives to make their Aikido as street effective as their ability will allow. As far as the boxer, I am sure that simply by the nature of the art and the culture, I am sure that the boxer would be confident that it would work even if they have no aspirations of being a champion. In some Aikido dojos many Aikidoka don't even try to make "their" Aikido effective. What is the downside? One can still benefit from all the other applications, be a better person, ect, ect, ect. If it is a matter of fear, then just come out and say it and not couch in tangents?
 
Old 03-11-2011, 10:39 AM   #187
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?



I think these need repeating:

Quote:
It matters little how many techniques one knows, favourites or otherwise, how many have the bottle to put them into action ?
That is the gravey test.

Henry Ellis
I have found that what Henry says above to be the acid test that separates the talkers from the doers most times. I think good Aikido training should give one the internal mettle to apply direct action if and when necessary if other options fail.

The problem though, is if training is approached in the manner that Jon refers to below, what we have is a dangerous combination of delusion regarding actual ability and total lack of preparedness or will to execute when confronted with a situation that cannot be evaded.

Quote:
The problem is many of these hobbyists fancy themselves as doing more than exercise. Yoga, pilates and other exercise programs do not appeal to these individuals because those programs do not promote the fantasy of being a fighter. So we are left with a group of individuals who practice in a manner scarcely considered "martial" clinging to a namesake that includes "martial" in its title.

Jon Reading
I have found that the group Jon speaks about in the above quote are often the most vocal to tell someone what is and is not "Aikido" because they are very quick to attack what does not fit into their comfortable little fantasy paradigm.

Just an observation I wanted to make. I have no issue with folks who train to get exercise, and some exposure to Japanese culture or whatever, but be real with yourself. For those who talk about "spirituality" and promoting peace, I submit that these elements are also important elements of sound martial training.

Just a thought.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
 
Old 03-11-2011, 10:59 AM   #188
sakumeikan
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
My question has always been how are any of the "other" benefits lost or in any way diminished if one simply strives to make their Aikido as street effective as their ability will allow. As far as the boxer, I am sure that simply by the nature of the art and the culture, I am sure that the boxer would be confident that it would work even if they have no aspirations of being a champion. In some Aikido dojos many Aikidoka don't even try to make "their" Aikido effective. What is the downside? One can still benefit from all the other applications, be a better person, ect, ect, ect. If it is a matter of fear, then just come out and say it and not couch in tangents?
Dear Jason,
If one is simply approaching Aikido from the perspective of 'Effectiveness' one may neglect the other aspects of what Aikido can offer.Its not a question of anything being lost /diminished more a question of what you might fail to gain from the other aspects of Aikido in the pursuit of effectiveness.Ideally one should aspire to be effective and at the same time be equally proficient in the other aspects of Aikido. In my mind there is small Aikido and big Aikido.Both are important but for me the Bigger Aikido is a more worthwhile goal.
Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe
 
Old 03-11-2011, 11:01 AM   #189
Anjisan
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Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post


I have found that the group Jon speaks about in the above quote are often the most vocal to tell someone what is and is not "Aikido" because they are very quick to attack what does not fit into their comfortable little fantasy paradigm.

Just an observation I wanted to make. I have no issue with folks who train to get exercise, and some exposure to Japanese culture or whatever, but be real with yourself. For those who talk about "spirituality" and promoting peace, I submit that these elements are also important elements of sound martial training.

Just a thought.

LC
Very good points and fit with my experience!
 
Old 03-11-2011, 11:58 AM   #190
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

hi Joe--

I included the link at the end to the newspaper article so readers could get a better idea of the full context of the story. But the video clip itself is what is most relevant to the topic of this thread, about whether your Aikido as a martial art is up to reality . . . when reality can include assaults like what is shown in the clip.

Whether the victim later received compensatory payment for his injuries, whether guards were negligent in monitoring the holding cell or were somehow justified in not immediately responding--these are beside the point. The point is whether your aikido skills (or other martial training) would stand up to being physically trapped with a stronger, more aggressive, clinically insane predator as shown in the clip.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi,The guy who got clipped around the ear picked up not a bad little paycheque for 19 mins of pummelling.As far as the guards are concerned with a potential madman going at it , would you risk life and limb for the peanuts the warders get paid, and leap in like Batman to rescue the victim? Maybe the warders were waioting for the bruiser to punch himself out [like George Foreman/M.Ali fight]
before entering the lions den???
Maybe the bruiser was slightly miffed at something the victim said??One never knows. I bet the bloke does not drive around with a dodgy licence again in case lightning strikes twice.
 
Old 03-11-2011, 01:12 PM   #191
Brian R. Scott
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
hi Joe--

The point is whether your aikido skills (or other martial training) would stand up to being physically trapped with a stronger, more aggressive, clinically insane predator as shown in the clip.
Is this a joke?

All training aside, you would either prevail or not.

If you don't have that understanding, then whatever martial art you have been training no matter how th3 d34dly you think it is, is worthless.

Fantasy "pressure testing" and a few rounds of sparring and rolling with other amateures does not make anyone ready to "stand up to" that.

Living in a mental world of fear and aggression, and training based of that world view is just as much fantasy role playing as anything else.
 
Old 03-11-2011, 01:21 PM   #192
Anjisan
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Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Jason,
If one is simply approaching Aikido from the perspective of 'Effectiveness' one may neglect the other aspects of what Aikido can offer.Its not a question of anything being lost /diminished more a question of what you might fail to gain from the other aspects of Aikido in the pursuit of effectiveness.Ideally one should aspire to be effective and at the same time be equally proficient in the other aspects of Aikido. In my mind there is small Aikido and big Aikido.Both are important but for me the Bigger Aikido is a more worthwhile goal.
Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe
I am not asserting that one pursue "effectiveness" to the exclusion of other aspects. In my psychology graduate program, the use of Aikido principals in a therapeutic relationship was stressed-one of my late professors trained at my dojo how cool! It, in my opinion should be one piece of the pie, not a sliver, but a significant piece. So often when this topic comes out, this (false fork) in road appears where if one incorporates "reality" or "effective" based (semantics) training then, one either can't or is incapable of applying the principals of Aikido in other aspects of life-not at all true.

I just don't see how having that as a component of one's training means that one cannot get as much out of other aspects of Aikido. I mean the Shaolin monks, samurai,on and on had opportunities to improve themselves on any number of fronts and I have not ever read of just because they had were martially effective prevented them from fully applying what the martial arts had to offer. Really, Osensei, was by all accounts very effective and was a deeply spiritual (and I am sure flawed) individual-that did nit seem to hold him back. He, having masted that transitioned to a more spiritual focus, especially in his later years, but no less effective.
 
Old 03-11-2011, 02:02 PM   #193
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Brian Scott wrote: View Post
Is this a joke?

All training aside, you would either prevail or not.

If you don't have that understanding, then whatever martial art you have been training no matter how th3 d34dly you think it is, is worthless.

Fantasy "pressure testing" and a few rounds of sparring and rolling with other amateures does not make anyone ready to "stand up to" that.

Living in a mental world of fear and aggression, and training based of that world view is just as much fantasy role playing as anything else.
One doesn't have to make pressure testing "fantasy"....
Had that person had some training of sorts maybe he would have coped with it better..... My former/younger students have come back to me on occasion after being assaulted on a night out with friends and told me if it had not been for the "pressure testing" they would have failed miserably.....
 
Old 03-11-2011, 02:59 PM   #194
Brian R. Scott
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

[quote=Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe;278997]One doesn't have to make pressure testing "fantasy"....
Had that person had some training of sorts maybe he would have coped with it better..... My former/younger students have come back to me on occasion after being assaulted on a night out with friends and told me if it had not been for the "pressure testing" they would have failed miserably.....[/QUOTE

I'm not saying it is structured as fantasy I'm saying it is fantasy.

Anecdotal evidence does not change my oppinion.
 
Old 03-11-2011, 03:29 PM   #195
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

[quote=Brian Scott;278999]
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
One doesn't have to make pressure testing "fantasy"....
Had that person had some training of sorts maybe he would have coped with it better..... My former/younger students have come back to me on occasion after being assaulted on a night out with friends and told me if it had not been for the "pressure testing" they would have failed miserably.....[/QUOTE

I'm not saying it is structured as fantasy I'm saying it is fantasy.

Anecdotal evidence does not change my oppinion.
It probably wouldn't......
 
Old 03-11-2011, 04:31 PM   #196
Hellis
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

[quote=Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe;279003]
Quote:
Brian Scott wrote: View Post

It probably wouldn't......
Tony

Its all up hill.

I would add that the words of Joe Curran Sensei are worth taking heed of.
His lineage is 100% with Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and TK Chiba Sensei...

Henry Ellis
Posiive Aikido
http://aikido-blogs.blogspot.com/
 
Old 03-11-2011, 04:39 PM   #197
David Orange
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Brian Scott wrote: View Post
Is this a joke?

All training aside, you would either prevail or not.

If you don't have that understanding, then whatever martial art you have been training no matter how th3 d34dly you think it is, is worthless.
Whatever pressure testing you've undergone, it can always go higher. So if I can be "Bob," those that mean I can beat a UFC fighter? Or if I can beat one UFC fighter, can I beat the guy that beat him?

Solid technique is a far better basis than fantasy technique, but there's always a tougher guy around the next corner. Ultimately, I know that my fate is always in God's hands.

Best to all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 03-11-2011, 04:53 PM   #198
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Brian Scott wrote: View Post
All training aside, you would either prevail or not.
Do tell.

The problem is, you can't put your training aside. How you train (or don't train) is going to affect not only how you specifically handle the assault (technique, etc.), but also your mindset, physical resilience, and a host of other factors quite relevant to whether you will survive such an attack.

It's also a question of honesty in training. You're quite correct in your implication that some arts and martial artists live in a fantasy world that they are "th3 d34dly." Others perhaps convince themselves that asymptotes and teaching the world to sing in perfect harmony (I date myself there) are sufficient substitutes for awareness, situational savvy, and being able to take a hit or a hard fall.

The title to this thread I regard as an excellent starting point of discussion, for aikidoka and for other martial artists: what are you training for? "Reality"-based self-defense has its own set of biases and limitations, to be sure, but it offers some good questions as well.
 
Old 03-11-2011, 05:11 PM   #199
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

[quote=Henry Ellis;279007]
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post

Tony

Its all up hill.

I would add that the words of Joe Curran Sensei are worth taking heed of.
His lineage is 100% with Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and TK Chiba Sensei...

Henry Ellis
Posiive Aikido
http://aikido-blogs.blogspot.com/
Dear Henry,
You are making me blush. You are too kind.I was just a very fortunate person to meet these wonderful Martial Artists.I regret I never had the opportunity to meet Tadashi Abe Sensei and other respected teachers who frequented the Hut in the early days.In this respect I doff my cap to you as my senior since you are one of the early pioneers of U.K aikido.
Cheers, Joe.
 
Old 03-11-2011, 05:14 PM   #200
Brian R. Scott
Dojo: Aikido of Tamalpais/Corte Madera CA
Location: San Rafael/CA
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Do tell.

The problem is, you can't put your training aside. How you train (or don't train) is going to affect not only how you specifically handle the assault (technique, etc.), but also your mindset, physical resilience, and a host of other factors quite relevant to whether you will survive such an attack.

It's also a question of honesty in training. You're quite correct in your implication that some arts and martial artists live in a fantasy world that they are "th3 d34dly." Others perhaps convince themselves that asymptotes and teaching the world to sing in perfect harmony (I date myself there) are sufficient substitutes for awareness, situational savvy, and being able to take a hit or a hard fall.

The title to this thread I regard as an excellent starting point of discussion, for aikidoka and for other martial artists: what are you training for? "Reality"-based self-defense has its own set of biases and limitations, to be sure, but it offers some good questions as well.
It has been a good discussion, I agree.

I think you touched on the piont I was trying to make better than I made it.

A teacher of mine likes to ask "for the sake of what?" [do we train]. I always liked that as a personel reference point to work with on the mat.
 

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