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Old 03-09-2011, 02:30 PM   #351
Mark Freeman
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
You need to let us in on the terminology you are using in order for us to understand you.

What do you mean by;

preformal,

potential realm,

martial subset

dps
Hi David,

If a concept can't be explained in plain english, then the fault lies with the explainer.

Complicated scientific principles are often explained using metaphor and good use of plain language. If a martial arts soaked audience can't understand what is being said, then there is definitely a language issue here.

There are plenty of people following the whole IS/IP/aiki debate and in the main, those who claim to have it, and those who practice and strive to master it, are engaged in the debate using, both old and new terminology. In the main just about everyone (I think) has some understanding of what is being discussed. Am I right?

Tenyu claims to have perfected something which he claims is both unique and pretty lethal. Until someone, apart from him, who can varify his claims, comes along and confirms. We only have his say so. I find his explanations impossible to get my head round. I just can't comprehend. It could just be me, but I don't think I am on my own.

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:33 PM   #352
Flintstone
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
(...) This is why O Sensei spent his post-enlightenment years creating all those beautiful staff forms, it's much more challenging and enriching.
O Sensei created what?
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:38 PM   #353
C. David Henderson
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

"All those beautiful staff forms." Geez, man, pay attention.

David Henderson
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:44 PM   #354
Howard Popkin
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Be careful of warts.
Now that was funny
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:31 PM   #355
Flintstone
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
"All those beautiful staff forms." Geez, man, pay attention.
My bad.
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:33 AM   #356
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi David,

If a concept can't be explained in plain english, then the fault lies with the explainer.

Complicated scientific principles are often explained using metaphor and good use of plain language. If a martial arts soaked audience can't understand what is being said, then there is definitely a language issue here.

There are plenty of people following the whole IS/IP/aiki debate and in the main, those who claim to have it, and those who practice and strive to master it, are engaged in the debate using, both old and new terminology. In the main just about everyone (I think) has some understanding of what is being discussed. Am I right?

Tenyu claims to have perfected something which he claims is both unique and pretty lethal. Until someone, apart from him, who can varify his claims, comes along and confirms. We only have his say so. I find his explanations impossible to get my head round. I just can't comprehend. It could just be me, but I don't think I am on my own.

regards

Mark
I agree wit what you are saying.



dps
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:49 AM   #357
Shadowfax
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Tenyu claims to have perfected something which he claims is both unique and pretty lethal. Until someone, apart from him, who can varify his claims, comes along and confirms.
ummmmm....Please excuse me from breaking in on a conversation that is way above my head, but just out of curiosity. Because I am trying to figure out just how one goes about determining how lethal an art is. How many people have you actually killed using this staff form Tenyu? And is the government aware of your activities? How exactly does one determine whether or not a form is lethal and to what degree? I'm not sure killing imaginary enemies really counts. Or am I mistaken?
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:26 AM   #358
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
How many people have you actually killed using this staff form Tenyu?
None.

Quote:
Please excuse me from breaking in on a conversation that is way above my head, but just out of curiosity. Because I am trying to figure out just how one goes about determining how lethal an art is. How exactly does one determine whether or not a form is lethal and to what degree?
Morihei said of all the people who came to contest him in his dojo, only a few of them were real masters. He knew as soon as they walked in before anything happened and admitted such immediately, of course they were able to recognize the same with Morihei. It is the ones, the overwhelming majority of challengers, who with little experience with the preformal could not see the potential realm. Uke, by their own culturally inherited psychology of separation(please refer to Ascent of Humanity in Open Topics), by default had access only to the ‘postformal' downstream manifest world and could only find out by attacking.

When Kaicho started up in NYC, he had many challengers all of them bigger than him. They were very powerful and successful professional fight competitors, yet still uke to no fault of their own. These people meant business, interrupting his classes to challenge him. Kaicho never wanted to hurt anyone but they gave him no choice. There was never any fighting of course, Kaicho ended every situation immediately with irimi. The worst that happened for uke was a broken rib or two, not bad for a true no rules situation. Some of the challengers did go on to become dedicated students of his though.

The very desire to fight with someone requires one to become uke. It's a classic example of field reversal. A real nage has no such desire.
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:54 AM   #359
Marc Abrams
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Cherie:

You asked a person to put some substantiation behind the words and all you get is a bunch of nonsense in return. Isn't that lethal enough for you?

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:07 PM   #360
Shadowfax
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Cherie:

You asked a person to put some substantiation behind the words and all you get is a bunch of nonsense in return. Isn't that lethal enough for you?

Marc Abrams
Well... it certainly is just a little bit frightening I suppose. So far though I am not blinded by pure awesome....maybe he needs more noodles.....

Tenyu... I have no idea what the history lesson was about. You forgot to tie in the part about how this has anything to do with what you claim.You didn't actually answer the question. Any rate thanks for the attempt.
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:26 PM   #361
Janet Rosen
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Well, clearly it's a case of he could tell us but then he'd have to kill us.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:03 PM   #362
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Well, clearly it's a case of he could tell us but then he'd have to kill us.
Which might explain the absence of anyone who can step up to verify that what he says is true..... oh wait he said he has never actually killed anyone though.
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:03 PM   #363
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Well, clearly it's a case of he could tell us but then he'd have to kill us.
Or telling us would kill us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9XJeL2MNpw

dps
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:12 PM   #364
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Or telling us would kill us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9XJeL2MNpw

dps
ahhh thank you. Now at last I understand.
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Old 03-10-2011, 05:25 PM   #365
Janet Rosen
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Or telling us would kill us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9XJeL2MNpw

dps
you know I thought of that one too!

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-11-2011, 03:04 PM   #366
dbotari
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Asymptote is no more difficult to understand than infinity. If there were a jargon-free word that has the same meaning as asymptote I would use it.
Sorry but I call BS. If you can't explain such an obviously abstract concept in simpler terms then you don't understand it well enough to be teaching it.
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Old 03-11-2011, 07:00 PM   #367
dps
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Dan Botari wrote: View Post
Sorry but I call BS. If you can't explain such an obviously abstract concept in simpler terms then you don't understand it well enough to be teaching it.
Albert Einstein ?

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

and

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...ins383803.html
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Old 03-12-2011, 12:27 AM   #368
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Cherie:

You asked a person to put some substantiation behind the words and all you get is a bunch of nonsense in return. Isn't that lethal enough for you?
He's been killing me ever since he started posting.

Actually, asymptote is not that hard to understand. You just have to go to Tom Read and he does a great job of explaining it.

But I've decided to base my new style on this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK5Z709J2eo

Best.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:01 AM   #369
Walter Martindale
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post

But I've decided to base my new style on this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK5Z709J2eo

Best.

David
Very good.

W
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Old 03-12-2011, 10:42 AM   #370
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Very good.
I'd claim it as my own...but that would be wrong. Wouldn't it?


"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 03-12-2011, 11:29 AM   #371
sakumeikan
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Dan Botari wrote: View Post
Sorry but I call BS. If you can't explain such an obviously abstract concept in simpler terms then you don't understand it well enough to be teaching it.
Dear Dan,
Out of curiosity I looked up the meaning of asymptote[always eager to educate myself].Having looked at the answer I have a glazed look on my face. How Tenyu can imply that this tunes in somehow with Aikido I do not know.I defy anyone to make sense of Tenyus article.The first guy to give me a rationale of what Tenyu is saying I will send him /her a coconut[in a figuratively speaking . sense].I await a horde of answers with bated breath. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-12-2011, 11:53 AM   #372
David Orange
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Dan,
Out of curiosity I looked up the meaning of asymptote[always eager to educate myself].Having looked at the answer I have a glazed look on my face. How Tenyu can imply that this tunes in somehow with Aikido I do not know.I defy anyone to make sense of Tenyus article.The first guy to give me a rationale of what Tenyu is saying I will send him /her a coconut[in a figuratively speaking . sense].I await a horde of answers with bated breath. Cheers, Joe.
Joe,

Tom Read, who applied the concept to aikido, explains it as this: you have a runner running in a straight line as fast as he can. You tell him to turn right, maintaining his speed. He can't make a 90 degree turn at full speed. He has to curve. A stronger person can curve more sharply, but there's a limit to how much turn he can make with his mass and speed, and that curve is the "asymptote". He can't possibly pass that "barrier" described by the curve. So it's not a physical "thing" but it is a physical limit.

Applied to aikido, at least on one level, the attacker comes at you and you move to his side. He can turn toward you, but there's a limit to how sharply he can turn toward you and if you're on the other side of the "asymptote" line, he can't reach you. He can conceivably put his arm through that space, but not with full power because he's working against himself.

I'm not exactly clear on how this applies to the staff.

But I think that's the basic idea.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 03-12-2011, 03:39 PM   #373
sakumeikan
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Joe,

Tom Read, who applied the concept to aikido, explains it as this: you have a runner running in a straight line as fast as he can. You tell him to turn right, maintaining his speed. He can't make a 90 degree turn at full speed. He has to curve. A stronger person can curve more sharply, but there's a limit to how much turn he can make with his mass and speed, and that curve is the "asymptote". He can't possibly pass that "barrier" described by the curve. So it's not a physical "thing" but it is a physical limit.

Applied to aikido, at least on one level, the attacker comes at you and you move to his side. He can turn toward you, but there's a limit to how sharply he can turn toward you and if you're on the other side of the "asymptote" line, he can't reach you. He can conceivably put his arm through that space, but not with full power because he's working against himself.

I'm not exactly clear on how this applies to the staff.

But I think that's the basic idea.

Best to you.

David
Hi David,
Thats why the fox/greyhound has a tail-to help them turn /change direction quickly.The tail is not just for swatting flies!The movement you describe afterwards sounds like
Irimi Nage.Thanks for the explanation -I still think that Tenyu is guilty of 'over intellectualising' Aikido. Aikido for me is not rocket science.I guess I am not scientifically minded.Maybe Tenyu could explain more is theories? I noted he stated he had developed Jo work-why not tell us more? I am always for new ideas.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-12-2011, 03:42 PM   #374
sakumeikan
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Smile Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

David,
I send you an electronic coconut as promised, Joe.
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:04 PM   #375
David Orange
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
I still think that Tenyu is guilty of 'over intellectualising' Aikido.
I think that's because these are not his ideas. Tom Read Sensei developed all these ideas and applied them to staff work and back to aikido (or that's the impression I get). There's another thread about Read's book, Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law.

Here's a link that explains some of it.

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/BookPage.html

It's a bit abstract for me, but I think I'd like to go through it at some point and see if I can understand his basic points. He was Tenyu's teacher, if you haven't caught that point yet. He had to boot Tenyu and Tenyu changed the name of the system and announced it as a new martial art....so it's not his own idea and he has to lean a bit too heavily on it to make his points.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Aikido for me is not rocket science.I guess I am not scientifically minded.Maybe Tenyu could explain more is theories? I noted he stated he had developed Jo work-why not tell us more? I am always for new ideas.
To make sure you get the original ideas, I'd recommend the book.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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