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Old 03-05-2011, 01:53 PM   #326
Gary David
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Unlike O Sensei, I'm willing to teach Internal Aikido in a way where anyone can begin learning it from the very first day of class. This path isn't exclusive to me nor should it be.
Tenyu
It is your path alone to travel...and that is cool. It is yours alone to follow....you have stated in your recent posts how much beyond any of us you are in your development,,,,maybe so...... It never helps to step into a room full of strangers and start telling them how much more you know than them and how much better you can apply what you know than anything of them can with what they know. There are places I know that if you took the approach you have here fights would break just to see who would get to toss you out of the place....and they would.

Maybe you are a gift from above....but your marketing department has not served you well. I think I said somewhere that this would not end well and I still think that is the case. Good luck with it....
Gary
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Old 03-05-2011, 02:06 PM   #327
Marc Abrams
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Marc,

Your anger is misdirected. Please don't attempt to mimic the Mike/Dan dynamic, it's not what the forums are for.

-Tenyu
Tenyu:

1) Anger misdirected? Are you now a trained mental health person as well?
2) Mike and Dan have something valid to offer others after many, many years of training on their parts. You are not even remotely part of any type of any kind of similar dynamics.
3) The forums are for people to discuss various topics. I set out a bunch of them in my last post, which you seem to not want to have to address.

Keep on digging...

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-05-2011, 02:42 PM   #328
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post

I were to guess estimating peripherally my regular high frequency activations are around 15 to 20 cycles. My attenuated activations could easily be 30 to 60 cycles. It's an unbelievable experience.
I not sure what you mean by activations.

"Strike activation", the mechanical vibrations of the staff when it strikes something?

"Attenuated activations"?

dps
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Old 03-05-2011, 05:19 PM   #329
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Tenyu
It is your path alone to travel...and that is cool. It is yours alone to follow....you have stated in your recent posts how much beyond any of us you are in your development,,,,maybe so...... It never helps to step into a room full of strangers and start telling them how much more you know than them and how much better you can apply what you know than anything of them can with what they know. There are places I know that if you took the approach you have here fights would break just to see who would get to toss you out of the place....and they would.

Maybe you are a gift from above....but your marketing department has not served you well. I think I said somewhere that this would not end well and I still think that is the case. Good luck with it....
Gary
Gary,

I agree with you now that Aikiweb is not the best ‘target audience' to find someone interested in learning what I do. I don't know what the average age here is but it's probably well over my own age. I've only had one teacher younger than me, a 4th dan at Seido who'd been training his whole life there. I learned a lot from him regarding Karate technique in class and seeing how influential it was to his daily life the few times I hung out with him outside the dojo. At the same time I had already been through quite a bit myself in life, many unique experiences which were foreign to him. I never treated him any different inside the dojo from my other teachers who were anywhere from 15 to 40 years older than me though.

If I were your guys' age I probably wouldn't want to learn from someone my age either, no matter what I had to offer. I've only trained in six Aikido dojos, and except for one there was rarely anyone younger than me, including large seminars! I did get quite a bit of interest from one California affiliation during a weekend seminar I attended but that was before I was even teaching at Northcoast. The shihan wasn't at all embarrassed to be genuinely curious and interested in what I was doing while we talked in the presence of his senior students.

I should focus my efforts on the younger generation.

You can probably see I'm quite passionate about Aikido, and I know the descriptions are foreign but believe it or not I try to make it as simple as possible to understand without sacrificing important details. What I've posted on Aikiweb is not at all indicative of how I would teach in person to a beginner. In the beginning, I teach by example, omitting the difficult terminology, and giving simple corrections "hold here on the stick", "see where my foot is pointing", "keep your back straight", just like any normal dojo.

-Tenyu
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Old 03-05-2011, 05:30 PM   #330
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I not sure what you mean by activations.

"Strike activation", the mechanical vibrations of the staff when it strikes something?

dps
That's it, but I never strike at anything physical only in the air as shown in my videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6qSruxAA3Q

The activations are harder to see when the staff is immediately 'bounced down' and returned from the asymptote but if you look closely it's visible. These were made with grade level 3 and 4 hickory. I've been training with grade 7 now for the past six months and it's completely changed my practice. As I mentioned the higher density wood can carry frequencies several times that of the lighter density wood.
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:03 PM   #331
Gary David
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Gary,
If I were your guys' age I probably wouldn't want to learn from someone my age either, no matter what I had to offer.
Tenyu
Age is not a difference maker with me and I don't think it has been the case here, but presentation and first impressions can cut any relationships one is trying to start off at the ankles. Also keep in mind that stand alone organizations are just that, standing by themselves without supporting relationships needed to progress and keep interest. Please keep that in mind as you move forward.
Gary
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:07 PM   #332
gregstec
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post

It's impossible for me to count in person because the very act of staring at the asymptote will cause me to become uke-centric and deny correct form. If I were to guess estimating peripherally my regular high frequency activations are around 15 to 20 cycles. My attenuated activations could easily be 30 to 60 cycles. It's an unbelievable experience.
Hey, if you want 60 cycles, stick your finger in the wall socket and see how that vibrates your shaft

Greg
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:31 PM   #333
mathewjgano
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
It's impossible for me to count in person because the very act of staring at the asymptote will cause me to become uke-centric and deny correct form. If I were to guess estimating peripherally my regular high frequency activations are around 15 to 20 cycles. My attenuated activations could easily be 30 to 60 cycles. It's an unbelievable experience.
If you have access to high-speed video, that would be the way to go! Fascinating to study too!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:06 AM   #334
Walter Martindale
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I don't know why I am commenting on this woeful thread apart to say, - How on earth do you come up with this stuff Tenyu??

Personally I have no idea/struggle immensely to understand what you are describing, but the man who wrote the book says an advanced practitioner 'may' be able to achieve 4 or more.
Then you tell us that you can achieve a number between 7 and 15 times greater than this?

I have no idea how anyone can begin to count cycles unles they are per minute, my limited understanding of what you are talking about is per second, am I correct? Distinguishing between these rates is for me impossible, maybe you are a being much further evolved than me, which is always possible I suppose.

reading your posts are a little like experiencing the world on the substances that were freely available in the sixties - bizarre

regards

Mark
Well, I don't get it. Long ago I did a master's in phys ed with a thesis studying the kinematics and energy flows (mechanical energy that is) of sculling. We filmed, digitised, and digitally filtered, but before filtering we did a Fourier analysis of the frequencies of all the markers, and (IIRC) signal to noise ratio was best if the cutoff was at 4 Hz.

It's a very long time ago and I've forgotten all but the underlying concepts of the frequency analysis, but I'm afraid I'll have to admit being very thick when it comes to the concepts discussed in this thread. I also studied math for 4 years in undergraduate - and I've managed to block most of it out, but I do remember infinity and asymptotes.

I don't think in my 18 years involvement in Aikido that I've heard anyone refer to asymptotes in Aikido before this thread (and of course the one to which I was referred by dps, but - and I apologise for my thickness - it too appears to be gobbledygook - someone using scientific/mathematical language to describe things that require new operational definitions of terms that already have accepted definitions).

When I'm at work (I'm a professional rowing coach) I speak to people as if they have brains, but I also use plain English - I try desperately to minimise polysyllabic obfuscation which would make the people I coach roll their eyes, because I want them to "get" it and perform in competition at a level appropriate to their development stage.

One example of a coaching situation - I managed to help a young woman learn to "catch" - place her sculls in the water - at the best time for efficient use of her power - She got it fairly quickly but since it was a new way of doing a movement that she'd been doing for about 10 years, she found that her movements were "jerky", and asked how to make it "lighter". I said something along the lines of "well, I could describe how I do it but we don't share nervous systems - you want to make the blades enter the water with a quick, smooth motion that involves only a small hand movement timed right at the moment that you change between recovery and drive - you've got the timing of it now and you've only done it about 5 times - let's see if over the next few minutes you can sort out how to make the movement smoother and lighter without losing any of the quickness and timing" (incidentally she was in a racing single skiff and I was in a motor boat, not in any position to guide a feeling other than by description of movements). She took a few minutes to "get" it and was able to incorporate the (relatively subtle) change in her movements to make the boat she was using go faster with the same or possibly less effort.

I've done this and other coaching interventions with several people aged from 13 to in their 50s, and they've almost all been able to figure it out, and I think it's mostly because I use plain, simple language to describe what's happening and what they're trying to do.

See, I could say that they want the inferior tip of the scull to make contact with the water when the tangent to the arc of its travel is perpendicular to the water's surface, and to become fully immersed in less than 0.10 second, or I could say that they want the bottom edge of the blade to hit the water at the point of furthest reach (farthest?) and to go in all the way, quickly. Both descriptions say about the same thing, but one works for people who understand vectors and geometry, while the other works for anyone who speaks English. The former are a subset of the latter, and I'd rather reach more people by using plainer language.

Asymptotes, and all this other stuff to do with physics, without the benefit of the movements being analysed in 3 dimensions within a calibrated space just leaves me with my eyes glazing over.
If someone who has the resources and some skills in biomechanics could manage to do a proper study of the kinematics and kinetics of some of these aikido things that people are talking about, I'd be very interested. But it's not a simple thing to do.

A calibrated space - you take 3 or more cameras that are synchronised to a time signal (i.e., the shutter rate is identical AND the shutters are all open at the same time), and take film of a 3-dimensional lattice of known dimensions. Then digitise all of the points in the lattice as filmed by all of the 3 or more cameras, and use a computer program that is way beyond my skills to write so that any point that is within the confines of the 3-d lattice can be identified in x,y, and z coordinates.

Once you've got your calibrated space, assuming that the calibrated space is above a force-platform, perform several trials of whatever movement you are analysing, and digitise markers that you've placed on the bodies of the people performing - again, with all three cameras - and run the data through digital filtering to reduce things like camera shake, operator digitising error and the like, correct for optical errors, and combine the info from the 3 or more cameras to develop stick figures of the people doing the performances. Assign mass characteristics to the segments of the stick figures, and find out what the frequencies of the movements are. If you've got force platform data that was gathered and synchronised with the film data, then you can figure out the directions and magnitudes of the forces that are being exerted on the floor by the practitioners.
Oh, by the way - a 30 by 60 cm force platform with the charge amplifiers was $40,000 in 1979.

However - I'm sorry I got off on this particular tangent (oops, another scientific word). I'm just very confused by Hamaki-san's usage..

Now - having written all of this (I'm staying vertical at the moment because every time I lie down my pneumonia makes me cough, and I can't get to sleep), do I click "submit reply" or not?

Ah heck...
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:36 AM   #335
kewms
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
No one can own an asymptote nor the word asymptote. Nor can one own Aikido nor the word Aikido. Tom only described natural law, he didn't actually create natural law.
300 years later, we still talk about Newton's Laws, even though he didn't invent the underlying physics either. It's true that natural laws exist, independent of any description by mere humans. But among humans, attribution is an important sign of respect.

Katherine
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:43 AM   #336
kewms
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
David,

Frequency refers to how many cycles the staff vibrates at strike activation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency

In Tom's book Aikido Aikibojitsu and The Structure of Natural Law page 232 he mentions an intermediate practitioner can achieve 1 or 2 cycles while an advanced practitioner may be able to achieve 4 or more.

It's impossible for me to count in person because the very act of staring at the asymptote will cause me to become uke-centric and deny correct form. If I were to guess estimating peripherally my regular high frequency activations are around 15 to 20 cycles. My attenuated activations could easily be 30 to 60 cycles. It's an unbelievable experience.
Unbelievable indeed. Got any evidence for this claim?

Katherine
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:35 AM   #337
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Tenyu, "attenuated activations" seems to be a contradicting term.

Attenuate means to to reduce and activate means increase action.

dps
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:30 PM   #338
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Tenyu, "attenuated activations" seems to be a contradicting term.

Attenuate means to to reduce and activate means increase action.

dps
David,

For reasons not too different from what Greg S joked about above, it would be irresponsible of me to explain how this works on a public forum. It's not safe for a beginner or even an intermediate level practitioner. I only practice attenuation about once a week myself.

-Tenyu
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:55 PM   #339
Mike Sigman
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I only practice attenuation about once a week myself.
Be careful of warts.
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:33 AM   #340
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Hi Gary,

I have created some of the most lethal staff forms in history but I'll never show them publicly in demonstrations, video, or to undedicated students.
LOL. I never took this dude seriously in the beginning, but this takes the cake. I dont see why people would continue replying after reading this post. Awesome stuff, Tenyu. Made my day.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:11 AM   #341
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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David Orange wrote: View Post

Also, really, you should do another thread on Peak Oil (which I've been studying since 1974) on the Open Topics forum.

David
David,

I took your advice. Please feel free to share.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:28 AM   #342
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
David,

I took your advice. Please feel free to share.
Tenyu, how did you devise the most lethal forms in history? How did you measure that? Do you know about all the forms in the world ... did you meet with all martial artists that engage in some kind of 'lethal' form and formed your judgment off your meeting with them? I'm seriously curious.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:47 AM   #343
Dan Rubin
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Tenyu, how did you devise the most lethal forms in history? How did you measure that? Do you know about all the forms in the world ... did you meet with all martial artists that engage in some kind of 'lethal' form and formed your judgment off your meeting with them? I'm seriously curious.
...writes the guy who couldn't see why people would continue to reply to Tenyu's posts.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:22 AM   #344
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
...writes the guy who couldn't see why people would continue to reply to Tenyu's posts.


Maybe he haz g0t da g00dz. Seriously, I wanna know where that guy is coming from when he makes a statement like that.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:22 AM   #345
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Tenyu, how did you devise the most lethal forms in history? How did you measure that? Do you know about all the forms in the world ... did you meet with all martial artists that engage in some kind of 'lethal' form and formed your judgment off your meeting with them? I'm seriously curious.
Lorel,

Where did I say all forms? I said staff(hardwood) forms. The martial subset of the preformal is tiny and easy compared to the entire potential realm. This is why O Sensei spent his post-enlightenment years creating all those beautiful staff forms, it's much more challenging and enriching.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:37 AM   #346
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Lorel,

Where did I say all forms? I said staff(hardwood) forms. The martial subset of the preformal is tiny and easy compared to the entire potential realm. This is why O Sensei spent his post-enlightenment years creating all those beautiful staff forms, it's much more challenging and enriching.
You need to let us in on the terminology you are using in order for us to understand you.

What do you mean by;

preformal,

potential realm,

martial subset

dps
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:54 AM   #347
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

David,

Those words are defined in Tom's book. I suggest you buy it if you're really interested. There are people on this forum, both regular posters and non-member lurkers, who have already read it and understand the words.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:03 AM   #348
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Lorel,

Where did I say all forms? I said staff(hardwood) forms. The martial subset of the preformal is tiny and easy compared to the entire potential realm. This is why O Sensei spent his post-enlightenment years creating all those beautiful staff forms, it's much more challenging and enriching.
I'm sorry, 'hardwood' staff forms. How do you know that you created the most lethal 'hardwood staff forms' in the history of martial arts? What is your measure for this?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:06 AM   #349
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, 'hardwood' staff forms. How do you know that you created the most lethal 'hardwood staff forms' in the history of martial arts? What is your measure for this?
My experience with the preformal.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:25 AM   #350
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Um right. bye bye

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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