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Old 03-05-2011, 09:23 AM   #26
graham christian
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
The poster's choice of terms is what gets him in trouble. David and others raise the important point in regards to any REAL experience with being a warrior. Maybe the poster should spend some time speaking to some real warriors, then he could gain some understanding as to Henry's very succinct and to-the-point analysis.

There are important distinctions between the two types of "minds" that the poster talked about. That being said, his choice of terms was lacking at best....

marc abrams
Marc. I do not say anything that is not based on real experience thank you. Maybe you want times, places etc. however that would be of no use to those who just want to throw away what I say.

Once again the choice of words I use are what I mean. I talk to many with the type of mind I describe from all walks of life.

I suggest it is not a matter of 'gets me in trouble' but rather it troubles some. I read similar views from many respected stalwarts from O'Sensei to Tohei to Musashi to people you well know in your own circles. In fact I wouldn't mind betting you say similar things when teaching sometimes.

Or maybe I'm wrong there.

Anyway your view of what a succinct and to-the-point analysis is did make me smile so thanks for that.

Keep up the good work.

Regards.G.
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:49 AM   #27
graham christian
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi all,

this short film 'Bouncer' clipped from Geoff Thompson's site and starring the always excellent Ray Winstone is well worth a viewing (as long as you can stand a bit of earthy language).

http://www.geoffthompson.com/Bouncer.asp

Watch it and let me know where and who, if anyone, is the warrior / fighter.

I think this is a brilliant, thought provoking little film that is pertinent to the thread...enjoy

regards

Mark
Hi Mark. Excellent little film with a great message. The only example of warrior mind I saw was in the person who made the film.

I watched a video before of Geoff Thompson that was entitled 'the fence' if I remember correctly. Very good. I recommend it.

As far as warrior mind goes as I portrayed it I notice a few people including you said you don't consider yourself a warrior.

Once again I feel this is not the best thing to do with the concept but rather to see which things in your life you do approach with that mind compared to which things you approach with a fighting mind.

Then recognise where one leads to compared to the other.

For me saying I am this or I am not this stops one from learning. When am I this and when am I not this is far for fruitful an excercise from my point of view.

Thank you.

Regards.G.
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:07 AM   #28
dps
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi all,

this short film 'Bouncer' clipped from Geoff Thompson's site and starring the always excellent Ray Winstone is well worth a viewing (as long as you can stand a bit of earthy language).

http://www.geoffthompson.com/Bouncer.asp

Watch it and let me know where and who, if anyone, is the warrior / fighter.

I think this is a brilliant, thought provoking little film that is pertinent to the thread...enjoy

regards

Mark
I would recommend that they watch all his films posted on his sight. Cautioned is recommended due to subject matter and language.

dps
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:23 AM   #29
Marc Abrams
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Marc. I do not say anything that is not based on real experience thank you. Maybe you want times, places etc. however that would be of no use to those who just want to throw away what I say.

Once again the choice of words I use are what I mean. I talk to many with the type of mind I describe from all walks of life.

I suggest it is not a matter of 'gets me in trouble' but rather it troubles some. I read similar views from many respected stalwarts from O'Sensei to Tohei to Musashi to people you well know in your own circles. In fact I wouldn't mind betting you say similar things when teaching sometimes.

Or maybe I'm wrong there.

Anyway your view of what a succinct and to-the-point analysis is did make me smile so thanks for that.

Keep up the good work.

Regards.G.
Graham:

Maybe you should re-read my post. I talked about the value of the distinctions that you made in mind-sets. I basically agree with much of what you pointed out.

It is easy to talk about a "warrior" anything from the perspective of having never been a warrior. A typical definition of a warrior is "someone engaged in or experienced in warfare." Many people try and ascertain what those experiences are like without ever having to have had any first-hand experience as a warrior. For example, as a soldier if they have ever experienced fear. Ask a soldier if fighting has a purpose. I my own opinion, you have tendency to come to idiosyncratic uses of terms which does not assist you when you are trying to convey your ideas.

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:34 AM   #30
graham christian
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

Maybe you should re-read my post. I talked about the value of the distinctions that you made in mind-sets. I basically agree with much of what you pointed out.

It is easy to talk about a "warrior" anything from the perspective of having never been a warrior. A typical definition of a warrior is "someone engaged in or experienced in warfare." Many people try and ascertain what those experiences are like without ever having to have had any first-hand experience as a warrior. For example, as a soldier if they have ever experienced fear. Ask a soldier if fighting has a purpose. I my own opinion, you have tendency to come to idiosyncratic uses of terms which does not assist you when you are trying to convey your ideas.

Marc Abrams
Marc. Accepted. I post in order to make people think. To question. To inspect.

Others may generally have 'someone engaged in or experienced in warfare' as their definition of a warrior. Is it true? Many have experienced warfare and many have engaged in it but do they consider themselves warriors? Many do not.

The mind set can be neared and experienced in life outside of war. For example when faced with danger, when faced with life threatening danger, when many are faced with life threatening danger. Some rise and face it with clear mind and actually go in to action. We can observe this in earthquake situations, scenes where most are panicking, or even points in life where all seems lost.

Then there is also times when faced by groups of muggers or football hooligans etc. If you approach and handle with the mindset I describe you are indeed therefore a warrior at that point under the definition I offer.

On the other hand if you ask a soldier or policeman of a time when they handled a situation and experienced this calm, clear, fearless, relaxed state in the face of great danger I'm sure they would tell you how extraordinary it was and how different it was and could relate to what I said.

Whether they would call that the warrior mind would be interesting to hear.

I have experienced it and then spent weeks wondering what to call it and thus found the concept I give as the only one that made sense. I then realized the difference between fighting and doing. Then quotes from those known as true warriors made more sense and so I knew I was nearer to understanding what they meant.

Maybe one day I will be a master of conveying via the written word for the multitude of differing recipients but for now I say as best I can.

Here's an interesting thought. From your quoted definition (i'm not saying it's yours personally) would that make an ant or a white blood cell a warrior? In fact your lymphatic system could be full of warriors and all they need is correct nutrition to function properly.

Regards.G.
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:01 PM   #31
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

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Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Graham

Have you been watching Delboy again ??

Henry Ellis
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He's got nothing on plonker!!
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:44 PM   #32
lbb
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall

I think it's S. M. Stirling (an author of military SF who has regrettably been infected with Vampire Disease of late...but I digress...) makes the distinction between a soldier, which he defines as a skilled and disciplined fighter who fights for reasons other than his own impulses, glory and gratification, and a warrior, which he defines as a possibly skilled but almost completely undisciplined and unsophisticated fighter for whom glory and gratification are all. You'd have to read some of his books to understand the context. I'm not saying that his definition is the right one, merely using it as an example of how anyone can appropriate a term ("warrior" in this case) and use it to mean just about anything they want.
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:40 PM   #33
graham christian
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall

I think it's S. M. Stirling (an author of military SF who has regrettably been infected with Vampire Disease of late...but I digress...) makes the distinction between a soldier, which he defines as a skilled and disciplined fighter who fights for reasons other than his own impulses, glory and gratification, and a warrior, which he defines as a possibly skilled but almost completely undisciplined and unsophisticated fighter for whom glory and gratification are all. You'd have to read some of his books to understand the context. I'm not saying that his definition is the right one, merely using it as an example of how anyone can appropriate a term ("warrior" in this case) and use it to mean just about anything they want.
A fair enough point. However then a person who studies should take that viewpoint and apply it to life to see if it is valid.

I think all soldiers are told what to do for they are in a command stucture and have to do it. So they would be fighting for other than their own impulses and 'glory' of the unit or general.

His view on a warrior being un undisciplined fighter and unsophisticated doesn't fit any in life scenes that I can see. Quite the opposite in fact. A masai warrior for example is hardly ill disciplined and unsophisticated. Samurai warriors even had a code of honour which reinforced discipline and sophistication. Only the odd arrogant one might have glory as the goal but usually it is something that is lavished on them by others in all the history books I've read.

I could see a military man who is set on command structure and orders being obeyed like a machine having this kind of view though or even a dictator for that matter.

Regards.G
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:15 PM   #34
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

This is an excellent meditation on this issue:

http://www.stevenpressfield.com/cate...warrior-ethos/

If you are in a less meditative mood, there is always this raw unapologetic approach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTs6a...eature=related

Last edited by Erick Mead : 03-06-2011 at 09:18 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:54 AM   #35
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-XbUL4-LEI&feature=fvw ......
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:59 AM   #36
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

IMHO, there are many soldiers (in the military) who, even though they have a code of conduct, are not warriors.

And there are many warriors who are not soldiers (in the military).

Fighters, soldiers, and warriors are very different and distinct perspectives and people.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-07-2011, 05:19 AM   #37
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, there are many soldiers (in the military) who, even though they have a code of conduct, are not warriors.

And there are many warriors who are not soldiers (in the military).

Fighters, soldiers, and warriors are very different and distinct perspectives and people.
Classically, the sword was the orienting image of war. Now it is the rifle. Pace my Marine cousins, I would leave it at 'rifle' but for the rest of y'all we'll use "gun."

But not in the Marine sense.....

Putting the distinction in the three ways you have, I would say this:

1) The fighter wants a gun
2) The soldier prefers a gun
3) The warrior may use a gun

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-07-2011, 07:32 AM   #38
lbb
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
His view on a warrior being un undisciplined fighter and unsophisticated doesn't fit any in life scenes that I can see. Quite the opposite in fact. A masai warrior for example is hardly ill disciplined and unsophisticated. Samurai warriors even had a code of honour which reinforced discipline and sophistication. Only the odd arrogant one might have glory as the goal but usually it is something that is lavished on them by others in all the history books I've read.
He's a writer of fiction, Graham. He's got a good grasp of military history, and I'm sure he could cite many examples for you of warrior societies in which it was far more than the "odd arrogant one" who was a glory-seeker. As for Maasai and samurai "warriors", that's history if you're rigorous -- if you take the trouble to study and find out what they were really like, instead of telling yourself fancy stories. It's not here and it's not now. People love that word "warrior", but what do they even mean by it, and what relevance does it have to the contemporary reality of their lives? I think in most cases, it's a tenuous connection at best.

Last edited by lbb : 03-07-2011 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:52 AM   #39
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

I think Graham is a worrier.....
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:56 AM   #40
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I think Graham is a worrier.....
Wasn't that Boney?
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:00 AM   #41
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Graham,

Masai are high on drugs all day (and warriors even more), and samurai code of honour is mostly romanticised orientalism.
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:12 AM   #42
dps
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Pace my Marine cousins, I would leave it at 'rifle' but for the rest of y'all we'll use "gun."
Isn't there a distinction between the two.
One is for fighting and the other for fun?

dps

I

Last edited by dps : 03-07-2011 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:13 AM   #43
Hellis
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I think Graham is a worrier.....
A true worrier with his trusty friend and dancing partner ``Jo`` they are invincible.......

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:20 AM   #44
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
A true worrier with his trusty friend and dancing partner ``Jo`` they are invincible.......

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/
Takes two to tango Henry..
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:38 AM   #45
Hellis
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Takes two to tango Henry..
Now that sounds """cosy"""".......

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:55 AM   #46
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

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Wasn't that Boney?
Naaaaa Wellington sorted him out!!
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:57 AM   #47
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Isn't there a distinction between the two.
One is for fighting and the other for fun?

dps

I
As oppose to rifles shoot little rounds and guns shoot bloody great big rounds.....
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Old 03-07-2011, 10:02 AM   #48
lbb
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

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Now that sounds """cosy"""".......

Henry Ellis
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The pot calls the kettle black? When you find yourself in a tete-a-tete, that's a sign that it should be taken to email or PM.
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Old 03-07-2011, 10:02 AM   #49
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
1) The fighter wants a gun
2) The soldier prefers a gun
3) The warrior may use a gun
IMHO, the distinction isn't the weapon or the occupation, but the person.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-07-2011, 10:17 AM   #50
phitruong
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post

1) The fighter wants a gun
2) The soldier prefers a gun
3) The warrior may use a gun
i thought

1. fighter wants to fight others
2. soldiers fight for each others
3. warrior fight with him/her-self.

isn't that one of the reason warrior needs "self-defense" because the other bugger is ugly and vicious?
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