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Old 02-17-2011, 12:34 PM   #26
George S. Ledyard
 
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Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
No! but you are agreeing to some of it!!

Most people are being ripped OFF!.

1.50 is not the same as 60.
So where is the 58.50 gone?Answer- somebodies back pocket!!

Aikido has become the wing chun,and tkd,of japanese arts.
Weak but expensive.
Maybe things are different in the UK from the States but Aikido here is far and away the cheapest martial art to do where you can find dedicated dojos. There are, of course, many martial arts taught at community centers. They are uniformly priced but the quality of instruction can be quite uneven, you have to know what you are looking for.

But when it comes to actual dojos where you would typically find the most experienced teachers, Aikido costs are FAR below the typical costs of the other martial arts. The national AVERAGE for martial arts instruction in the US is about $140 / month. There are twenty dojos in the immediate Seattle area of which I am on the high end of monthly dues at $120 / month. So, the most expensive Aikido school in our entire area is well under the national average for martial arts instruction.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:57 PM   #27
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
United Kingdom
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

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Martin Horne wrote: View Post
I'm wondering how much other Brit folks pay for insurance, federation membership etc. I've been advised to join the British Tomiki Aikido Federation, but it's 20 annual membership fee and 40 pounds insurance. 60 a year for a humble 5th kue who is unlikely to enter a competition for a while seems a Hell of a lot of money. The Mrs is likely to do some complaining! I'd be really grateful for any comments and advice concerning this. Thank you. Martin

PS When I did karate (admittedly about 20 year ago) it was all in for a tenner.
Hi Martin,

Not sure if you drink or smoke at all, if you do then you will realise that pro rata a years that membership would cost you a few pence over 1 per week, that is equivalent to less than 1/2 pint of the cheapest beer or 4 or 5 cigarettes!

The federation I belong to charges fully waged folk 38 / year. I charge monthly fees of 40 ($60) for 2x2hr sessions / week. The insurance for students is included in those fees.

It's not expensive, the real cost is time and mental and physical commitment

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:43 PM   #28
danj
Dojo: Brisbane Aikido Republic
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 298
Australia
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

In Australia insurance comprises offer many different products and you get what you pay. Some products are professional indemnity for the instructor, public liability for the equipment/space you use, directors insurance for the club office bearers and medical and accident insurance for members. Lots of layers to the onion of protection and expensive if you want them all. Premiums get cheaper the more people you have in the policy, the more you can document risk management processes and legal status of you organisation.

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Old 02-26-2011, 11:22 AM   #29
Keith Burnikell
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11
United_States
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Mark,
I've trained with Mr. Ledyard. If you get a chance to do so, you'd be 'enlightened'.

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Ofcourse you wouldn't want your students with "that" attitude.
Your techniques wouldn't work against them.
They would be teaching you!!

Putting on white pyjamas two or three times a week,teaching a hobby martial art, to hobbyists,in bare feet does not make one a martial artist!.

Teaching or training techniques means you havn't learned a thing or are teaching for money,and padding out the art.

I stand corrected,it was forty pounds worth of fraud and not sixty!!

BTW...I would advise quitting,afterall you,ve never hurt anybody!
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:58 PM   #30
markyboy64
Dojo: backyard
Location: plymouth
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 35
United Kingdom
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi John,

then don't go feeding him they thrive on direct questions, they only wither and die through being completely ignored.

If he was offered to practice for free, it would not change the contempt that he holds aikido practice in. I'm wondering about someone that comes to join Aikiweb who clearly has no interest in adding anything of any value?

regards

Mark
Mark! you only live a short distance from me!
I would like to invite you down to Plympton ,Plymouth.

We can train in a friendly exchange of knowledge!

Bring some beer tokens too!
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Old 02-28-2011, 04:09 AM   #31
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
United Kingdom
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Mark! you only live a short distance from me!
I would like to invite you down to Plympton ,Plymouth.

We can train in a friendly exchange of knowledge!

Bring some beer tokens too!
Hi Mark,

you are from Plympton, you might just beat me up and steal my beer tokens!

I could do that as long as we agree it is a friendly exchange of knowledge. Do you have a practice space? what is your practice anyway?

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-28-2011, 07:31 AM   #32
markyboy64
Dojo: backyard
Location: plymouth
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 35
United Kingdom
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,

you are from Plympton, you might just beat me up and steal my beer tokens!

I could do that as long as we agree it is a friendly exchange of knowledge. Do you have a practice space? what is your practice anyway?

regards,

Mark
Hi,

I teach what bagua and taiji were ment to be...a down right 100 % dirty fighting system,without learning forms,katas,or walking the circle which just hides the body mechanics.

We do natural abstract drills that teach very powerful body mechanics.Without thinking you learn "techniques" subcontiously.

Mark,training is friendly!

You may bring friends if you wish(they can look after your beer tokens).However if you can't do nikyo on me(two at a time if you bring friends) you're buying!

Regards mark.
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Old 02-28-2011, 07:51 AM   #33
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
United Kingdom
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Hi,

I teach what bagua and taiji were ment to be...a down right 100 % dirty fighting system,without learning forms,katas,or walking the circle which just hides the body mechanics.

We do natural abstract drills that teach very powerful body mechanics.Without thinking you learn "techniques" subcontiously.

Mark,training is friendly!

You may bring friends if you wish(they can look after your beer tokens).However if you can't do nikyo on me(two at a time if you bring friends) you're buying!

Regards mark.
Hi Mark,

I'll PM you for details of when you practice, as I would like to come and see and feel what you do.

I'll come alone initially as I don't feel I need anything more than me in a friendly learning environment.

And if I can apply nikkyo? I assume you will be happy to cough up

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-28-2011, 08:42 AM   #34
markyboy64
Dojo: backyard
Location: plymouth
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 35
United Kingdom
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,

I'll PM you for details of when you practice, as I would like to come and see and feel what you do.

I'll come alone initially as I don't feel I need anything more than me in a friendly learning environment.

And if I can apply nikkyo? I assume you will be happy to cough up

regards,

Mark
Mark! I will stand on one leg while you apply it,and give you half a chance to hold on to the beer tokens..I love free beer!.

Yes, pm me and we will work something out.
I train everyday so what ever suits you is fine with me!

mark.
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:27 AM   #35
RoisinPitman
Dojo: Phoenix (Jersey) School for Therapeutic Arts
Location: Jersey
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 18
Jersey
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
No! but you are agreeing to some of it!!

Most people are being ripped OFF!.

1.50 is not the same as 60.
So where is the 58.50 gone?Answer- somebodies back pocket!!

Aikido has become the wing chun,and tkd,of japanese arts.
Weak but expensive.
That's quite a sweeping statement that you make and suggests that some people are dishonestly pocketing money for which you have no proof. I am not so naive as to believe that it doesn't go on somewhere in the martial arts community but make a blanket assumption is not helpful to anyone.

Re Insurance. Everyone and every organisation is different, one size does not fit all. My school, based in Jersey, is an independent organisation. We have on average approximately 30 students across three arts (aikido, iai-do and t'ai chi). As an independent group we have insurance cover for all students for an annual fee of approximately 320 (this includes administration fees from the insurance company). Our Instructors pay their own PI insurance of 60 per year and our students pay the equivalent of 2.50 per month. None of my students or the Instructors pay a membership fee, only a monthly training fee.

My point is this - any club or organisation can get the same Club Insurance as my group (approx 320 per annum). Depending on the number of students in that group/organisation will determine what is charged to each indicvidual for their personal insurance contribution.

The B.A.A. has been mentioned (1.40 approx.) an organisation I used to belong to in the dim and distant past when the Kaishinkai (traditional arm of it) used to be affiliated to it, is a very large organisation and do not have to charge much for each student. If a group has independent insurance for a group of 10 people then obviously that contribution will climb steeply or the club would have to charge very high mat fees instead. I won't insult anyone further by doing the maths.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:49 PM   #36
Tom123
Location: Sheffield
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 11
United Kingdom
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Talking Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Most martial art clubs in the UK are in leisure centers.
If so you don't need insurance,you are already covered by law!(I.E the leisure centre).
Plus what you are paying for"which is a fraction of what is being asked" is third party only insurance.
Which means you would have to sue the person who injured you.
Not the club.

So it's more fraud than insurance.
It's the easiest way for instructors to fleece their students.
Especially as most students give up in the first three months.
OOHH no refund!

So if anybody on here is being asked for insurance money,in clubs,training camps ect....you got MUG written on your forehead.
Hi

I'm the original poster - sorry - have been unable to come on here for a while. Well, the cost of insurance remains controversial, but I can tell you categorically that my sensei does not take a penny from the mat fees (he is a member of my extended family) and we do not get charged for gradings. His reward is seeing students improve.

Mark, the fact that you cite yourself as your 'primary teacher' and your backyard as your dojo, does...er.... set alarm bells ringing.

Martin
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:30 AM   #37
markyboy64
Dojo: backyard
Location: plymouth
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 35
United Kingdom
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Martin Horne wrote: View Post
Hi

I'm the original poster - sorry - have been unable to come on here for a while. Well, the cost of insurance remains controversial, but I can tell you categorically that my sensei does not take a penny from the mat fees (he is a member of my extended family) and we do not get charged for gradings. His reward is seeing students improve.

Mark, the fact that you cite yourself as your 'primary teacher' and your backyard as your dojo, does...er.... set alarm bells ringing.

Martin
Martin, I have been practicing martial arts for over thirty years,I can tell you if you are not" teaching yourself",you have not learned a thing.

The internal arts are based primarily on physical balance and body unity for whole body power.With gravity.

There are no techniques per se in the internal arts except natural motion,not learned techniques!

The begining of every taiji form starts with lift hands,which is just a version of the fright reaction(fajing)dropping energy.Plyometrics in pragmatic English.
Bagua does the same as taiji,just a series of smooth,fluid fright reactions,whilst training dynamic balance.

The balance needed in both arts(incuding aikido or sports)is the most important thing,as without great balance your power will be less,and get frittered away.

NOBODY!! can teach you dynamic balance,you have to" train" it,at home or in your BACKYARD,everyday so you can move and strike,kick,throw,with alot of power.Catch and surpass your teachers in a short space of time,weeks,months,not years!

The internal arts are abstract,which means adapt,make your own techniques up.
The more opened minded you are the faster you will teach yourself.

Your alarm bells should really be ringing now!

Regards Mark.
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:18 AM   #38
aikidoprincipal
Dojo: Iwama Ryu North West
Location: Chorley, Lancashire
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8
England
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Hi Martin,
If the club or association is part of the BAB then only 4-15 goes towards your insurance and subscription to the BAB. (that is the current fees 2011). If the Aikido is what you want then you are paying just over a pound per week, not a bad price for the insurance cover you get.
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:46 AM   #39
john.burn
 
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Dojo: Chishin Dojo
Location: Coventry
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 200
United Kingdom
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Paul Sparks wrote: View Post
Hi Martin,
If the club or association is part of the BAB then only 4-15 goes towards your insurance and subscription to the BAB. (that is the current fees 2011). If the Aikido is what you want then you are paying just over a pound per week, not a bad price for the insurance cover you get.
Hi Paul,

It's actually just 1.65...Whatever your own association charges you is them making money - the BAB charges your association 1.65 for normal student level insurance. They may recently have changed to a per student subscription too though, seems to ring a bell but the insurance is definitely only 1.65

Last edited by john.burn : 05-12-2011 at 10:52 AM.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:41 AM   #40
aikidoprincipal
Dojo: Iwama Ryu North West
Location: Chorley, Lancashire
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8
England
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Hi Paul,

It's actually just 1.65...Whatever your own association charges you is them making money - the BAB charges your association 1.65 for normal student level insurance. They may recently have changed to a per student subscription too though, seems to ring a bell but the insurance is definitely only 1.65
Yes indeed, but the subscription is 2-50 so any club in the BAB has to pay that with the insurance premium of 1-65
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Old 05-12-2011, 06:22 PM   #41
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
United Kingdom
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Hi Martin,

The cost of Aikido insurance in the UK via the BAB is 1.40, clubs and associations usually then ask for a membership that goes to them directly and is nothing to do with the BAB. Not everyone is a member of the BAB mind you but I guess the numbers involved do indeed keep the costs down.

Charging 40 for insurance sounds like a hell of a lot to me!

As it would appear you're learning Shodokan (Tomiki) then the BAA are members of the BAB, they should be cheaper and might well have a dojo in your area.
Dear John.
Recent changes to the B.A.B Personal Indemnity Insurance for Instructors means that in the case of level 3 Instructors the cost of this premium is now over 50.00.If the Instructor has two venues the cost is doubled.This is due to the fact that the dojo is the insured not the person.So although the B.A.B membership might be 1.40 the overall costs are 1.B.A.B membership fee.2.Instructors/dojo fees.
3. The fee to your groups parent body.4. Any teaching certification your group may have i.e Shidoin Fee , Fukushidoin fee.
So when you add it all together it comes to a few bob.Enough to get me a wee dram and a stick of rock in Blackpool [and a kiss me quick hat-very fetching].Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe
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