Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Columns

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Comment
 
Column Tools
  #26  
Old 02-15-2011, 12:12 PM
Susan Dalton
Username: Susan Dalton
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 240
 
Location: Greensboro
Dojo: Greensboro Kodokan
Offline
Injury and Responsibility

They were having fun, really going at it. I could hear the thuds way across the mat. Then everything stopped. "Should I call an ambulance?" I heard someone say. By the time I got to them, my friend was standing.

"No, no," he said. "I'll be OK." But I could tell by his white, white face...

Last edited by akiy : 02-15-2011 at 12:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2011, 03:49 PM   #25
Susan Dalton
Dojo: Greensboro Kodokan
Location: Greensboro
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 240
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

A senior student in my dojo once said he looked for two signs of a "healthy" dojo:
1. A place where students being taped up, bandaged, or off the mat for injury was a rare occurrence.
2. A place where both men and women felt comfortable training.

We got into an interesting discussion about those two points.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2011, 03:51 PM   #26
Susan Dalton
Dojo: Greensboro Kodokan
Location: Greensboro
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 240
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Yes, I was out of the country at the time, and when I came back I found out what had happened. I myself had taught the student who died.

PAG
I'm really sorry about your student, Peter.
Susan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2011, 11:25 PM   #27
ninjaqutie
 
ninjaqutie's Avatar
Dojo: Searching for a new home
Location: Delaware (<3 still in Oregon!)
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,003
United_States
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

Quote:
Susan Dalton wrote: View Post
A senior student in my dojo once said he looked for two signs of a "healthy" dojo:
1. A place where students being taped up, bandaged, or off the mat for injury was a rare occurrence.
Wow... our dojo must go through un-healthy spurts then, because for a while, just about everyone was taping up a wrist, foot or something. We have two people sitting off the mats right now, but one of the isn't a dojo related injury. My injury was purely accidental. Things happen sometimes unfortunately.....

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 10:25 AM   #28
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

Quote:
A senior student in my dojo once said he looked for two signs of a "healthy" dojo:
1. A place where students being taped up, bandaged, or off the mat for injury was a rare occurrence.
I don't know, I'd want to know more... For one thing, how serious the injuries are. Bruises, wrenched fingers, or pulled muscles might benefit from a bit of first aid, but I would not personally consider them a catastrophe.... I got my toe-nail torn off once and it was unpleasant and took a while to heal but it's not like there were any long-term consequences or anything. Another question would be who's getting injured? To me it seems more concerning if beginners are getting injured more than seniors, as that suggests they're being pushed more than is safe for them or that people are (either intentionally or due to ignorance) taking advantage of their inexperience or willingness to do as people tell them to.

But if two seniors want to train a little nearer the edge of safety and do know what they're doing and aren't pressured to train that way and don't pressure anyone else to train that way, and in doing so risk an injury? I don't know, seems like it's their life and body to do as they like with....

Most people who do any sport do from time to time get some injury, whether it's running, swimming, basketball, etc. Hopefully it's not a very frequent thing and hopefully the injuries are not major nor hard to heal. E.g. there are some things the body can fully heal, and other things where you're doing long-term damage.

Personally for me I would be less concerned with the actual _number_ of injuries so much as how free any person is to choose how far to push themselves and to opt out of things they consider riskier without any pressure or embarrassment. It really bothers me if there's an environment where people don't feel comfortable saying they don't feel comfortable...

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 03-03-2011 at 10:32 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 02:14 PM   #29
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,741
United_States
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Wow... our dojo must go through un-healthy spurts then, because for a while, just about everyone was taping up a wrist, foot or something.
I've always made a distinction between self-inflicted injuries and other-inflicted injuries. Maybe it's not that simple, though. I can easily imagine a situation where a lot of self-inflicted injuries could indicate a bad training environment (unsafe practices, people not being taught how to respect their bodies' limits, poor fitness levels, whatever). I wouldn't really look at a dojo and say, "Lots of taped up people? REJECT!" But if you see that everyone seems to be taped up, it's probably good to look closer at the reason why.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 04:26 PM   #30
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,914
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I wouldn't really look at a dojo and say, "Lots of taped up people? REJECT!" But if you see that everyone seems to be taped up, it's probably good to look closer at the reason why.
Yep...the dojo I referred to in my post, there were plenty of warning signs in terms of % of people dinged up or healing injuries at any given time.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 06:53 PM   #31
ninjaqutie
 
ninjaqutie's Avatar
Dojo: Searching for a new home
Location: Delaware (<3 still in Oregon!)
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,003
United_States
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

Most people use tape in our dojo for supportive reasons (too much sankyo, etc) or for preventative reasons. Sometimes they use it to cover up blisters or mat burn or whatever else it is...

I wouldn't say that our dojo is a rough house though

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 07:21 PM   #32
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 871
Online
Re: Injury and Responsibility

Lots of beginners with injuries is a bad sign. It suggests people being pushed too hard, too soon, and/or lack of attention to ukemi at the early stages.

Lots of people with injuries generally is a bad sign, for the same reason. And the more severe the injuries, the worse a sign it is: broken bones are worse than sprained wrists are worse than jammed fingers.

On the other hand, we've probably all encountered people who are just injury prone. Either their enthusiasm exceeds their ability, and they take risks they shouldn't, or else they have a magic ability to put their foot in the only hole in an otherwise immaculately groomed field. We've also all had what a friend of mine calls momentary lapses of gracefulness, where getting injured (or not) is a matter of plain old bad luck. And then there are the people who, having been injured once, wrap themselves in precautionary tape after tweaks that someone else might not even notice.

Accidents happen. It's a full contact martial art. If no one ever gets hurt, ever, I would question the validity of what is being practiced. But the kinds of injuries that keep people off the mat should be rare enough to be surprising when they happen.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 09:44 PM   #33
jurasketu
Dojo: Roswell Budokan
Location: Roswell GA
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 51
United_States
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

In all realms of activity, fatigue is a common cause of injury. Swollen joints are much more susceptible to injury. Fatigue creates concentration problems which can cause folks to lose their "presence of mind" and lose their form which often leads to injury whether self-inflicted or visited on a fellow.

But... It is hard to tell if you have successfully hammered a reflex unless you've tested it under the duress of fatigue. If you can execute flawlessly while completely knackered, then you know you can do it without thinking - it has become a reflex.

Furthermore, as Dirty Harry famously said, "A man's got to know his limitations." And yet, unless you've been driven to your physical and mental limits, you usually won't actually know what they are. Unfortunately, the process of discovering your limitations can be dangerous which is why everyone in a dojo needs to be safety conscious. "Players" in every sport need to be yanked from the "game" if they cannot hold their form - they have become a danger to themselves and others.

Some folks actually know their limitations because they have been in extremis. But the process of being in extremis can be life-changing in not necessarily a positive way. So I think it is important to test one's limits slowly, safely and carefully. And understand the risks.

Don't take this as a "don't try, don't push." Most people are capable of things they never imagined - but don't let your imagination get ahead of prudence and skill.

Robin

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Shodan - Started Aikido training in 2008
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 11:27 AM   #34
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Lots of beginners with injuries is a bad sign. It suggests people being pushed too hard, too soon, and/or lack of attention to ukemi at the early stages.

Lots of people with injuries generally is a bad sign, for the same reason. And the more severe the injuries, the worse a sign it is: broken bones are worse than sprained wrists are worse than jammed fingers.

On the other hand, we've probably all encountered people who are just injury prone. Either their enthusiasm exceeds their ability, and they take risks they shouldn't, or else they have a magic ability to put their foot in the only hole in an otherwise immaculately groomed field. We've also all had what a friend of mine calls momentary lapses of gracefulness, where getting injured (or not) is a matter of plain old bad luck. And then there are the people who, having been injured once, wrap themselves in precautionary tape after tweaks that someone else might not even notice.

Accidents happen. It's a full contact martial art. If no one ever gets hurt, ever, I would question the validity of what is being practiced. But the kinds of injuries that keep people off the mat should be rare enough to be surprising when they happen.

Katherine
I agree fully with this viewpoont. I would say 95% of the time injuries are the result of lack of responsibility no matter how 'hard' the training.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 03:33 PM   #35
Dave de Vos
 
Dave de Vos's Avatar
Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 335
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

On my second introductory lesson when training ikkyo I was uke and landed with my chest on my fist. I think I broke a rib then, but I didn't have it checked (they wouldn't treat it anyway). Luckily it was the last lesson before summer break, so it had 6 weeks to heal before lessons resumed.

I estimate that about once a month there is some blood on the mat (once in 15 training hours with 15 people on the mat on average). The "victim" is usually wearing a hakama (2kyu and up in our dojo) and treated with some adhesive bandage. Like yesterday evening when a hand was punctured with a tanto while training tanto chudan tsuki.

I haven't seen more serious injuries yet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2011, 07:32 AM   #36
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Injury and Responsibility

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
There have actually been several training deaths in Japan. To my knowledge, each was in a University club setting, no Shihan was presiding, and basically the issue was what we would call "hazing". The upper class seniors presiding over the class had the juniors training to total exhaustion. Things like 1000 break falls from shihonage. The persons killed ended up being to tired to protect themselves and took disastrous falls.

There's no question that this kind of thing is avoidable. But it involves a change in the dominant paradigm operating in these university clubs.

It's not that there aren't Shihan who are brutal. They injure folks all the time. It's just that their skill level allows them to keep a lid on it. When someone is really in trouble, they can usually find a way to avoid this kind of over the top injury. But some Nidan college kid doesn't necessarily have the sensitivity, the judgment, or even the developed sense of the consequences of his actions to be given that kind of power over his juniors. It's a recipe for disaster.

Aikido Journal Article About Injuries in Aikido
Hello,
Just found this thread and would like to add to it. Decades ago when I did a bit of mountaineering I picked up a copy of the annual publication: "Accidents in North American Mountaineering". At first, this was a way of learning how to avoid becoming an accident statistic myself but I quickly became engrossed in these carefully researched accounts involving personal injury and tragedy and felt that reading them should be a preliminary requirement to getting involved in mountaineering. An annual statistical survey reporting Accidents and Injuries in Aikido might serve as an invaluable learning tool for dojocho and aikidoka alike.

Stay safe,

http://www.amazon.com/Accidents-Nort.../dp/1933056061

Last edited by abraxis : 05-17-2011 at 07:44 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2011, 03:03 PM   #37
zak riley
Dojo: kuraikan
Location: durham
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 8
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

a person of that rank should be able to take that ukemi
i disagree with that in away when we practise with someone
we should always blend and harmonize with a uke not with
a rank or belt we should never assume that someone can
do something just because of grade

Last edited by zak riley : 06-18-2011 at 03:05 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2011, 06:55 PM   #38
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 249
Philippines
Offline
Re: Injury and Responsibility

Lots of people mistake an aikido dojo as a safe place to train. Well, its not. It's one of the most dangerous places IMHO. It's much akin to driving a car, you feel safe inside a car until you experience a bad accident. It is a similar environment. The road is a very dangerous place. You need to be fully aware all around. The road code is also applicable to the dojo IMHO. There needs to be rules to prevent accidents from happening.
1.) You need to be fully aware of what going on around AT ALL TIMES, while in the dojo whether you are uke or nage, or doing nothing at all.
2.) know who your partners are. there are warning signs given by some people that they are accident/injury prone. avoid these people at all cost.
3.) when your nage is doing something you cannot handle and your gut tells you it may lead to an injury, IT IS NOT RUDE to ask the person to tone it down a bit. It is your body and he is just borrowing it so they can polish their technique. They need to respect it. It is not embarrassing to admit that you cant take it. If they don't want to partner with you later, that's fine ...you've solved your problem.
4.) the most dangerous times injuries happen...these are just examples. Pre-grading practices supervised by sensei, being uke for an examinee, partnering up with a visitor, people who throw without looking, taking exams (one shodan nominee had his eye poked by a tanto during tanto-dori, the grading was cut short as he needed to get medical attention)...etc

I've never been injured and never injured an uke for 21 years, except once. I was uke and my nage (dan level) poked me in the eye during shomenuchi ikkyo as he jerked the technique, got a corneal tear. looking at his hands, I told him that's why you cut your nails short!!! Never practiced with him again, months later a 4th dan he was training with had a bloodied mouth so I made the right decision.

You shouldn't live with the life-long consequences of somebody else's negligence. The thing is the warning signs are already there. You just need best to interpret them and act even on gut feeling that is why I probably avoided accidents all these decades. Life long regret can happen even with a momentary lapse in judgment.

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 06-18-2011 at 07:02 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Comment


Currently Active Users Viewing This Column: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Column Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new columns
You may not post comment
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Column Column Starter Category Comments Last Post
Shihonage Ukemi Rabih Shanshiry Techniques 80 10-19-2010 11:01 AM
Legal Case - Test your legal knowledge Rocky Izumi Voices of Experience 3 01-06-2008 12:27 PM
Social responsibility vs individualism ian Spiritual 19 02-17-2006 12:16 PM
Aikido injuries Doc2b Anonymous 44 02-06-2006 12:43 PM
Training while pregnant WuMarci Training 9 05-07-2005 11:13 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:50 PM.



Column powered by GARS 2.1.5 ©2005-2006

vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate