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Old 03-02-2011, 10:22 AM   #101
Basia Halliop
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
The problem with your ideas is that they are not really universal. Here in the states, the most common way for a cab driver to die is from a bullet in the back of the head. They don't see it coming. The passenger gives them no hint, no warning, no lip in advance. The driver pulls over to let out his fare and "BOOM!" before he can say "Here we are," he's dead. A jo in the seat might as well be a sword in a museum.

Yeah. The problem is, for real life-and-death situations, what you describe is not very realistic at all. Tough as it is, it's a fantasy in a world where people shoot first and issue threats later.
I think the point about different types of violence in different places is worth taking... I'm not sure I'd even always call it more/less violent as there are many ways to injure or kill someone, but very different....

Every place has its patterns... if I look up crime reports in my city, and looking only at crime that occurs when people are there (ie not counting things like B&E that occurs when no one's home, not counting thefts of cars or bikes, and not counting reports like 'someone stole my baggy of meth') I end up with a lot of robberies of convenience stores, and muggings where people are usually surrounded or jumped by several people and/or sometimes held up with a weapon (either knife or gun), and have their cellphones, i-pods, and sometimes wallets or jackets taken from them. Almost always it's 'no injuries reported' but the attackers are usually successful in getting the property (and sometimes the person is hit or knocked down although not badly enough to require any medical attention). Robberies of stores seem somewhat more likely to end up with more serious injuries (knives or guns are more often involved and occasionally even end up being used).

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 03-02-2011 at 10:26 AM.
 
Old 03-02-2011, 10:52 AM   #102
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
Tony,
let's take stock (I will leave out titles):

- you've called a Karate student of Kenji Ushiro a bunny....
- you've called someone a bunny who could point out his lineage goes to both Gozo Shioda and TK Chiba, through long direct teaching of Kanetsuka Sensei...
- you've said you are not interested in the opinion of an uchideshi of Minoru Mochizuki...
- you keep making blanket derogatory statements about the Ki society as if Koichi Tohei had not been one of the most important students of O-Sensei...
- you keep misquoting prices of IP seminars and then accuse the teachers of wanting to make a fast buck...
- you seem to think Mike and Dan cannot fight (that's actually funny)
- you have not met any of these people, ever...

So quite clearly you are blissfully unaware what you are talking about, and there seems to be no aikido authority outside of your own self that you are willing to acknowledge. Fair enough, this is the internet, and some say the narcissistic era (though they mean teenagers) - but why are you here to talk to us at all? Just looking for approval?

Anyway, we can update the list above every now and then, maybe there comes a point where even you will find it embarassing...
You think what you like old son.... I just question the secrecy of all the hype and collusion which is very evident.
I wear my heart on my sleeve..... If I am blissfully unaware, then so be it, but there is no way I'm paying 115 quid a day to be taught some thing I have already experienced from martial artists who don't need the hype to put out that they know something that nobody else knows? They are not interested in making money from gullible people......
I am in great debt to these people who have educated me in this way for next to nothing and it will be these people I will trust....As for Tohei he hasn't done so bad out of it, I know!! But then we all know that he had a powerful physique and was quite a good hand at judo even though he was a short ass like so many of us..... I think he saw his opportunity and took it, you lot are just repeddling it.....
When I see the evidence and proof of this new wonderful but "old" power being used and demonstrated out in the open and proved in the arena I might get interested, but until then, sorry I don't buy it.....

Regards

Tony
 
Old 03-02-2011, 11:34 AM   #103
Gorgeous George
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

'They picked a fight with a warlock.'

http://livethesheendream.com/
 
Old 03-02-2011, 01:01 PM   #104
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
'They picked a fight with a warlock.'

http://livethesheendream.com/
Have to start waving my wand then, now where is that tea cosy....?
 
Old 03-02-2011, 01:02 PM   #105
C. David Henderson
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Hi Tony,

It seems to me you have two different arguments you keep making:

1. That aikido is filled with bunnies -- people who'd collapse in a confrontation;
2. That what the IT folk are talking about is something you already know.

Not for me to tell you that you're wrong in either argument.

But even if 2 were true, it would not mean the IT folk are bunnies, just that you think they're selling snake oil.

That doesn't mean they can't fight, for example. It doesn't mean what they are teaching isn't useful to someone who will be fighting.

It just means you think you already understand this stuff, and that you don't really need it.

(IIRC, neither Dan nor Mike suggested otherwise, if for different reasons than yours.)

So, it's fine if you want to keep mixing up your two points, but it doesn't really help you persuade people to think about your overall -- and important -- point to make unnecessary associations between "bunnies" and "anyone who does it differently than I do," particularly when it leads you to say things many people -- those with direct experience -- find incongruous.

Best, my friend. I'll just hop along.

David Henderson
 
Old 03-02-2011, 01:46 PM   #106
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Hi Tony,

It seems to me you have two different arguments you keep making:

1. That aikido is filled with bunnies -- people who'd collapse in a confrontation;
2. That what the IT folk are talking about is something you already know.

Not for me to tell you that you're wrong in either argument.

But even if 2 were true, it would not mean the IT folk are bunnies, just that you think they're selling snake oil.

That doesn't mean they can't fight, for example. It doesn't mean what they are teaching isn't useful to someone who will be fighting.

It just means you think you already understand this stuff, and that you don't really need it.

(IIRC, neither Dan nor Mike suggested otherwise, if for different reasons than yours.)

So, it's fine if you want to keep mixing up your two points, but it doesn't really help you persuade people to think about your overall -- and important -- point to make unnecessary associations between "bunnies" and "anyone who does it differently than I do," particularly when it leads you to say things many people -- those with direct experience -- find incongruous.

Best, my friend. I'll just hop along.
No, what I am saying is you might be taking all the bunnies for a ride 'cause they can't make their aikido work? And Dan can? Well alleluia what a big surprise.
Do "soft" all your life and that is what one comes up with, it's no big surprise is it? When I see Ikeda doing all that stuff, I was doing that at kyu grade. Kenji whatsis name stuff we see in the junnana kihon waza of Tomiki aikido. There is nothing new under the son my friend

Now you just hop along and have a nice day to Charles
 
Old 03-02-2011, 01:54 PM   #107
C. David Henderson
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Its "David," Tony.

Carry on.

David Henderson
 
Old 03-02-2011, 02:41 PM   #108
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
So while it is true that Tony may have to deal with some of the rougher folks due to his job, it does not mean that only people in his position need to approach training this way. A lot of what is "realistic" depends on where you live and your daily experiences. You may not need to learn how to deal with severe violence because of where you live, but unless you can guarantee that life will always be that way it may be a valid point to consider at some level, especially if you are putting in all these hours in training. Ignorance of reality does not protect one from it ime.

Just some thoughts.

Best
LC
Good thoughts, Larry! I think they're perfectly fitting with my post about the relatively different needs and goals we all have. To my mind it's an odds game. Even the safest place on the planet can play host to murder...and given a long enough timeline, I'd say it will. I may have been describing the relative dangers as a means of defending less-serious practices, but I would never say danger cannot find us in a "safer" area. I would also argue everyone could/"should" stand a little education in the baser forms of reality...particularly people in relatively wealthy, comfortable situations like mine...and I grew up in an elevated crime area (nothing hugely dangerous, but enough to generate an awareness for certain behaviors). My wife, as an example, is fairly oblivious to certain things I pick up on much more quickly. When we drive through the city i will spot the drug deals and the guy walking around with the knife "concealed" in his hand. This is also why I tend to make the point that "real" self-defense has very little to do with an ability to fight, though I also think everyone should have some idea about what to do in one because I recognize the fact that we all have a blind-side (i.e. the best awareness will eventually miss something).
The question is to what degree we want to address that (hopefully low) probability of attack. That's a personal call. I believe my style of Aikido just happens to be effective, but I came to it looking for moving meditation. If others were to hypothetically train in a style that only works on having a calm mind (a good skill to practice in its own right), that's their right to do so. If they think it's more than it is, all i can say is we all suffer from the same problem: not knowing what we don't know and I refer everyone to my personal quote.
Tony's basic point is a good one, but it includes some presumptive language that I think detracts from his otherwise great message.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 03-02-2011 at 02:46 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 03-02-2011, 02:59 PM   #109
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Its "David," Tony.

Carry on.
David, my apologies....
 
Old 03-02-2011, 03:03 PM   #110
Hellis
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Good thoughts, Larry! I think they're perfectly fitting with my post about the relatively different needs and goals we all have. To my mind it's an odds game. Even the safest place on the planet can play host to murder...and given a long enough timeline, I'd say it will. I may have been describing the relative dangers as a means of defending less-serious practices, but I would never say danger cannot find us in a "safer" area. I would also argue everyone could/"should" stand a little education in the baser forms of reality...particularly people in relatively wealthy, comfortable situations like mine...and I grew up in an elevated crime area (nothing hugely dangerous, but enough to generate an awareness for certain behaviors). My wife, as an example, is fairly oblivious to certain things I pick up on much more quickly. When we drive through the city i will spot the drug deals and the guy walking around with the knife "concealed" in his hand. This is also why I tend to make the point that "real" self-defense has very little to do with an ability to fight, though I also think everyone should have some idea about what to do in one because I recognize the fact that we all have a blind-side (i.e. the best awareness will eventually miss something).
The question is to what degree we want to address that (hopefully low) probability of attack. That's a personal call. I believe my style of Aikido just happens to be effective, but I came to it looking for moving meditation. If others were to hypothetically train in a style that only works on having a calm mind (a good skill to practice in its own right), that's their right to do so. If they think it's more than it is, all i can say is we all suffer from the same problem: not knowing what we don't know and I refer everyone to my personal quote.
Tony's basic point is a good one, but it includes some presumptive language that I think detracts from his otherwise great message.
Take care,
Matt
Hi Matt

Like you I agree with much of what Tony has to say, he is with `respect ` abrasive ` at least, then I must admit that I am often accused of that too....many people don't like that as I have found out myself over the years, I would assume their reaction has the same effect on Tony as it does myself.......none.......

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
 
Old 03-02-2011, 03:03 PM   #111
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Good thoughts, Larry! I think they're perfectly fitting with my post about the relatively different needs and goals we all have. To my mind it's an odds game. Even the safest place on the planet can play host to murder...and given a long enough timeline, I'd say it will. I may have been describing the relative dangers as a means of defending less-serious practices, but I would never say danger cannot find us in a "safer" area. I would also argue everyone could/"should" stand a little education in the baser forms of reality...particularly people in relatively wealthy, comfortable situations like mine...and I grew up in an elevated crime area (nothing hugely dangerous, but enough to generate an awareness for certain behaviors). My wife, as an example, is fairly oblivious to certain things I pick up on much more quickly. When we drive through the city i will spot the drug deals and the guy walking around with the knife "concealed" in his hand. This is also why I tend to make the point that "real" self-defense has very little to do with an ability to fight, though I also think everyone should have some idea about what to do in one because I recognize the fact that we all have a blind-side (i.e. the best awareness will eventually miss something).
The question is to what degree we want to address that (hopefully low) probability of attack. That's a personal call. I believe my style of Aikido just happens to be effective, but I came to it looking for moving meditation. If others were to hypothetically train in a style that only works on having a calm mind (a good skill to practice in its own right), that's their right to do so. If they think it's more than it is, all i can say is we all suffer from the same problem: not knowing what we don't know and I refer everyone to my personal quote.
Tony's basic point is a good one, but it includes some presumptive language that I think detracts from his otherwise great message.
Take care,
Matt
Sorry Matt I'm know I'm blunt, but I like your honesty....
 
Old 03-02-2011, 03:25 PM   #112
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Hi Matt

Like you I agree with much of what Tony has to say, he is with `respect ` abrasive ` at least, then I must admit that I am often accused of that too....many people don't like that as I have found out myself over the years, I would assume their reaction has the same effect on Tony as it does myself.......none.......

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Henry:

Abrasive attitude is a minor issue in my book. I frankly appreciate a person who stands up for what he/she believe in. My issue with Tony is one of ignorance from an assumed position of knowledge. We all are entitled to believe what we would like to believe. It is an attitude of intellectual honesty and integrity that leads many people to test out their ideas.

I was fortunate to have had a class during my doctoral training with one of the greatest minds of the 20th century. At 82 years of age, that man did not attach his ego to his ideas and vigorously pursued knowledge even if that meant acknowledging that his previous ideas were wrong. He was always seeking to expand his knowledge up until his death. That is a role-model that I believe we should follow. If you posit an idea, test it out without relying exclusively on past results.

Tony can continue in his attempts to belittle others. His failed arguments and lack of intellectual honesty toward testing his ideas out are apparent to many. A lot of other strong-willed people gave up their excuses long ago and tested things out to later admit what they once thought was off-base.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
 
Old 03-02-2011, 03:47 PM   #113
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Hi Matt

Like you I agree with much of what Tony has to say, he is with `respect ` abrasive ` at least, then I must admit that I am often accused of that too....many people don't like that as I have found out myself over the years, I would assume their reaction has the same effect on Tony as it does myself.......none.......

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Quote:
Sorry Matt I'm know I'm blunt, but I like your honesty
Hi Henry, Tony,
Hey, sometimes we need that abrasion to provoke a little extra blood-flow. My only real criticism is that, without a respite, it makes it harder for the "softer-skinned" folks to receive the information. If the point is to teach, you have to consider how to make the information received. Otherwise it tends to be a case of preaching to the choir...and they're often the last people who need to hear the...er..."good" news.
And thanks, Tony! I appreciate that...and I appreciate where you're coming from. I grew up with people who have a similar sense of humor as yours, so maybe I can see the genuine smile within the rib-poking a little better than some...though I have to agree with Marc about the IS/IP discussions. What you do might be similar, it might be as effective for your goals, etc., but I don't see how you can assume you already know it in the same way.
...for whatever it's worth.
Take care, guys!
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 03-02-2011 at 03:52 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 03-02-2011, 04:02 PM   #114
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Henry:

Abrasive attitude is a minor issue in my book. I frankly appreciate a person who stands up for what he/she believe in. My issue with Tony is one of ignorance from an assumed position of knowledge. We all are entitled to believe what we would like to believe. It is an attitude of intellectual honesty and integrity that leads many people to test out their ideas.

I was fortunate to have had a class during my doctoral training with one of the greatest minds of the 20th century. At 82 years of age, that man did not attach his ego to his ideas and vigorously pursued knowledge even if that meant acknowledging that his previous ideas were wrong. He was always seeking to expand his knowledge up until his death. That is a role-model that I believe we should follow. If you posit an idea, test it out without relying exclusively on past results.

Tony can continue in his attempts to belittle others. His failed arguments and lack of intellectual honesty toward testing his ideas out are apparent to many. A lot of other strong-willed people gave up their excuses long ago and tested things out to later admit what they once thought was off-base.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Marc

I do hear you loud and clear...I honestly believe that all Tony wants for students is to understand their own capabilities, when the time may possibly come when one needs to protect themselves and possibly their families...I believe that when a real scenario happens many will be in for a helluva shock....
Regards

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
 
Old 03-02-2011, 05:17 PM   #115
Marc Abrams
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Marc

I do hear you loud and clear...I honestly believe that all Tony wants for students is to understand their own capabilities, when the time may possibly come when one needs to protect themselves and possibly their families...I believe that when a real scenario happens many will be in for a helluva shock....
Regards

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
Henry:

I fully agree with what you say. I have been around the block long enough to have seen some "thought they were tough ass" black belts in some "hard" arts get their asses handed to them by a good street fighter who knew what he was doing. My own training is always about being fully cognizant of what is going on around me and training my body to operate efficiently and effectively. The people I train with not only demonstrate those abilities but can teach them (some are better teachers than others). I am always amused when people assume that those teachers are doing nonsense and those people end-up on the wrong end of a whooping without really knowing what happened to them when they decide to "test" those teachers (heck, I have been on that end myself with all of my teachers). What may look like nonsense to some people are methods and means of operating the body that are not only well-tested, but allow you to be functionally effective even when you are well past your prime in strength (which is late twenties).

Ushiro Sensei puts it best when he talks about the biggest impediment to our learning in what we think we know. The beginner's mind is something that all teachers need to use in order to allow us to continue to grow and be examples of growth to our students.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
 
Old 03-02-2011, 06:55 PM   #116
David Orange
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
...I honestly believe that all Tony wants for students is to understand their own capabilities, when the time may possibly come when one needs to protect themselves and possibly their families...I believe that when a real scenario happens many will be in for a helluva shock....
Sir T-Rex,

All these points are well taken, but Tony goes much further than that and it's not merely "abrasiveness" that he shows. Really, just remove the "brasivene" from that word and you get the essence of it. Lately, I've been disinclined to bother with his stuff. If someone thinks he learned enough twenty years ago and closed his mind back then, it's not my place to insist that they open it. But I just read most of your website on the Jack Poole controversy and, frankly, Tony strikes me as far more of that sort than your sort. And when I saw your statement, "Silence is approval," I felt spurred to speak again.

The main problem I have with Tony is his dismissive attitude toward everyone else's experience and judgment in aikido and other martial arts. According to him, none of us know enough to recognize that the IP people we've trained with are really frauds--though Tony, himself, has never met or touched any of them and further refuses to go anywhere near them, claiming poverty. Well. What kind of excuse is that for a budo man? I know you sacrificed deeply for many years to learn and promote aikido, and I sacrificed in a similar way to go and live in a tough dojo in Japan, so I would think you would scoff at this transparent excuse for Tony's fear of being proven wrong and finding that he still has a lot to learn.

It's not only a question of self defense ability: it's the idea that, as many excellent aikido, judo, karate, jujutsu and swordsmen as we have met, we would repeatedly go and pay money to train under people who cannot do far more than the claims they make. I began my training from an defensive tactics manual my father brought home from the FBI National Academy at Quantico, Virginia, when I was eight years old. In my early 20s (late 1970s), I trained with a police instructor who had been training in jujutsu since 1917. He was a collector of antique swords and you couldn't pass off a piece of junk on him.

And you can't pass off a phony budo man on me. So when I say that Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa are the real deal, and their internal power is something to be respected, valued and seriously sought after, it's based on having met and trained with a lot of Japanese and Chinese experts and having felt a wide range of abilities. Dan and Akuzawa are among the very best I've ever encountered.

Well, Tony Wagstaffe can say they're not any good, but...he's never met them and he's never felt what they can do, so doesn't that strike you as a bit daft?

And for him to simply dismiss the judgment of people with decades of experience and teaching (and in my case, I taught in Japan) is a bit more than abrasive. It's just an attempt to shore up himself by insulting others. It might work in his own mind, but it makes him look like a fool (or maybe a Poole?) to everyone else.

Regards and best wishes on your efforts.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 03-02-2011, 07:50 PM   #117
Gorgeous George
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

*Like*
 
Old 03-02-2011, 07:56 PM   #118
Hellis
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Sir T-Rex,

All these points are well taken, but Tony goes much further than that and it's not merely "abrasiveness" that he shows. Really, just remove the "brasivene" from that word and you get the essence of it. Lately, I've been disinclined to bother with his stuff. If someone thinks he learned enough twenty years ago and closed his mind back then, it's not my place to insist that they open it. But I just read most of your website on the Jack Poole controversy and, frankly, Tony strikes me as far more of that sort than your sort. And when I saw your statement, "Silence is approval," I felt spurred to speak again.

The main problem I have with Tony is his dismissive attitude toward everyone else's experience and judgment in aikido and other martial arts. According to him, none of us know enough to recognize that the IP people we've trained with are really frauds--though Tony, himself, has never met or touched any of them and further refuses to go anywhere near them, claiming poverty. Well. What kind of excuse is that for a budo man? I know you sacrificed deeply for many years to learn and promote aikido, and I sacrificed in a similar way to go and live in a tough dojo in Japan, so I would think you would scoff at this transparent excuse for Tony's fear of being proven wrong and finding that he still has a lot to learn.

It's not only a question of self defense ability: it's the idea that, as many excellent aikido, judo, karate, jujutsu and swordsmen as we have met, we would repeatedly go and pay money to train under people who cannot do far more than the claims they make. I began my training from an defensive tactics manual my father brought home from the FBI National Academy at Quantico, Virginia, when I was eight years old. In my early 20s (late 1970s), I trained with a police instructor who had been training in jujutsu since 1917. He was a collector of antique swords and you couldn't pass off a piece of junk on him.

And you can't pass off a phony budo man on me. So when I say that Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa are the real deal, and their internal power is something to be respected, valued and seriously sought after, it's based on having met and trained with a lot of Japanese and Chinese experts and having felt a wide range of abilities. Dan and Akuzawa are among the very best I've ever encountered.

Well, Tony Wagstaffe can say they're not any good, but...he's never met them and he's never felt what they can do, so doesn't that strike you as a bit daft?

And for him to simply dismiss the judgment of people with decades of experience and teaching (and in my case, I taught in Japan) is a bit more than abrasive. It's just an attempt to shore up himself by insulting others. It might work in his own mind, but it makes him look like a fool (or maybe a Poole?) to everyone else.

Regards and best wishes on your efforts.

David
David

I don't personally know Tony, so it would be difficult for me to say what kind of person he may or may not be ?.....I can assure you that whatever he may be ? there is only one Jack Poole...Thank you for taking the time to read of my efforts to protect our UK proud history and lineage..
I do suspect that Tony secretly enjoys a little wind up, this thread is around 4000 hits ? so perhaps there are some that are enjoying the ``contest`` ......
Perhaps after Mr Hardins UK visit in May we will get some feedback ??
Take care David

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
 
Old 03-02-2011, 08:25 PM   #119
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post

Abrasive attitude is a minor issue in my book......
Is it ? I do wonder.....

Last edited by akiy : 03-02-2011 at 08:30 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
 
Old 03-02-2011, 08:30 PM   #120
David Orange
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Perhaps after Mr Hardins UK visit in May we will get some feedback ??
Take care David
Thank you, Sensei.

Actually, Jack Poole's picture even reminds me a bit of Tony's--though Jack looks rather more "saintly"???

That's quite a story you've got there. I can understand your pride and protectiveness about the history of aikido in UK. It's a hell of a fierce and incredible thing. Frankly, I doubt I could have made it at the Hut. My hat remains off to you, sir.

As to Dan Harden's UK visit, he's worth way more than Tony decries as "too much". And the main impression that usually follows in Dan's wake is a lot of smiles and laughter and amazement. I doubt many people in the world could attend and not benefit greatly. And Akuzawa has been to UK, too. And he's well worth a look. At least, before calling these people "snake oil peddlers," one should meet them and see what they're doing. I can understand a lot of skepticism about someone like Nishino, but even in his case, I'd want to try him out before labelling his stuff "snake oil".

And to be fair, I did ridicule Mike Sigman and I argued with Dan and Akuzawa's major student, Rob John, for quite a while before I started to see the light in what they were telling me. And I can say it's really bad to reject that stuff without ever having experienced it first-hand.

When did you say you'll be in the US this year? April in Arizona? Your book is on my list...I just can't seem to whittle the list down, but I'm going to get yours. I told Ellis Amdur that and I bought his book, eventually. I'm looking forward to reading yours as well.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 03-02-2011, 09:14 PM   #121
KaliGman
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
...
The problem with your ideas is that they are not really universal. Here in the states, the most common way for a cab driver to die is from a bullet in the back of the head. They don't see it coming. The passenger gives them no hint, no warning, no lip in advance. The driver pulls over to let out his fare and "BOOM!" before he can say "Here we are," he's dead. A jo in the seat might as well be a sword in a museum.

Yeah. The problem is, for real life-and-death situations, what you describe is not very realistic at all. Tough as it is, it's a fantasy in a world where people shoot first and issue threats later.

Sounds like playing, really--where people aren't fighting to kill, but just to let off some steam after drinking too much. I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the US and I've never been in "a fight" despite walking the streets alone for half my life. I've faced armed attackers, multiple attackers, multiple armed attackers, crazy people, ex-cons, various kinds of crooks and I've had all kinds of people show up at my aikido classes. And I never had to touch but one of them and never got in a fight with any of them--and never went to the ground with any of them, despite my long experience in judo, jujutsu and newaza. So maybe you're looking at things from a mistaken perspective, somehow? Never hurts to ask yourself that, does it?

Best wishes.

David
David,

Where did you get your information regarding cab driver mortality in the United States? I have never seen a study which showed that the number one cause of death for a cab driver in the U.S. was a bullet to the back of the head. In fact, when it comes to overall victimization rather than the "shoot the cabbie" sport that your post seems to indicate as prevalent in the United States, I can't really recall a good study which showed cab driver victimization to be this extreme in the U.S. The last Bureau of Justice Statistics study I saw regarding workplace violence had cab drivers listed as highly likely to be victimized compared to other transportation workers, but police officers had a level of victimization that was far and away higher than that of any other class of workers. Since I keep track of violence against law enforcement trends, as I have taught officer survival classes at a police academy or two, provide training for my federal task force on a recurring basis, and have a distinct aversion to being shot, I do know that the most prevalent assault on law enforcement is not a bullet to the back of the head, and that a gunshot to the back of the head is not the most common cause of mortality amongst police officers. Since cops, who are victimized far more often than cabbies, do not die in the manner you suggest, I don't think your hypothesis can be supported in relation to cab driver mortality.

Your post seemed to indicate that the most common robbery tactic in the United States, if robbing a cab driver, would be to shoot the driver and then rob him. In general, Uniform Crime Report and National Victimization Survey data indicate that most robberies are "contractual" in nature. In other words, a threat display of a weapon is involved in order for the robber to get the victim to agree to turn over valuables. Shoot or assault first robberies do occur, but were not the norm. Of course, a problem with "contractual" robberies is that the robber is writing the contract. Maybe the robber thinks the money was delivered too slowly and shoots the victim, maybe the robber decides the victim is attractive and wants to assert dominance and decides to get a little extra physical gratification, maybe the robber screws up and exerts four pounds of pressure on a trigger by mistake when he reaches for the victim's wallet with his other hand. Violence can happen at any moment.

If you based your opinion on violence against cab drivers on personal anecdotes, your own experiences or the like, I will have to say that it does not match my experience. In the last couple of decades I have worked, at a municipal and/or federal law enforcement level, in multiple states within the United States. I currently run a task force specifically set up to address violent crime. I don't see the kind of victimization that you suggest.

Now as to your assertion regarding having faced multiple armed attackers, I really would like to know what you define as an attack. I don't see how you survive more than one armed attack without fighting, unless you have always been in a position to run away rather than fight (which is a very good option, but one that is, sadly often eliminated by the attackers so their prey does not escape—i.e. you get surrounded or manhandled/controlled), or you were discussing robberies and you gave up property or negotiated with them and were able to end up without getting hit or shot or having to hit or shoot someone (once again, often a desirable outcome considering the alternatives, but often eliminated by the bad guys). If you are merely stating that you had a group of armed guys talk roughly to you, well, while legally that might possibly be considered "assault" as you might be considered to be in fear of an unlawful touching, in reality, it does not constitute an attack or "battery"—i.e. actually getting hit or having them attempt to injure or strike you. So, did people attempt to rob, strike, or otherwise injure you or do you have some other definition of attack? Every time I have been attacked, it has been by people who tried to hit, shoot, stab, cut, bludgeon, run me over with a vehicle (I once ended up on the hood of a Plymouth and don't recommend the experience), or otherwise injure me. I could not negotiate or escape and, a time or two, if I had not "gone ugly early" and fought and injured my opponents, I would not have survived. I have talked and otherwise defused far more situations than have resulted in fighting and violence, but when I have been attacked rather than threatened, I have had to fight.

As for IP/IS or whatever, I don't discuss or comment on those posts, really. I do not have a dog in that fight. I am not that concerned with definitions of what Person X calls internal and Person Y says Person X stole from him or whatever. I have not trained with what constitutes "the big names" in this field on this tiny little subsection of the tiny martial arts section of the Internet. I am concerned with fighting performance in a weapon intense environment and against multiple opponents, as that is directly related to what I do for a living. I think Tony is concerned with this too. Maybe IP/IS or whatever is different than things some of us do, and maybe not so much, as some of us have been exposed to rather varied and interesting training. To be frank, I may play with it later on, but, what interests me now is dealing with multiple cuts and thrust per second from a bladed weapon and gang violence by guys armed with rifles and wearing body armor. I guess that a lot of people are annoyed by Tony, a few agree with him, and a lot tolerate him. Personally, Tony reminds me of a couple of relatives of mine. These are the relatives that you want to see during a holiday dinner because they are abrasive, speak their mind, and are guaranteed to amuse you by taking the starch out of a couple of your more stuffy relations. Of course, I have a, shall we say, "interesting" sense of humor and do not expect everyone to agree with my tastes. I also say that I do not think that Tony is always right in his posts and that I know that he pokes at some people who do not appreciate it and who may be offended. I think he does it with good intentions and sometimes for a bit of fun, but, if you are on the receiving end and you don't like it, I guess that does not always matter.

I do not pop in here that often, and when I do it is primarily to read rather than post. You see, I have not taught jujitsu or Aikido in years. Aside from firearms disciplines and law enforcement specific tactics, I have not taught anything but Albo Kali Silat in the last decade. The grappling I teach is more from a Filipino dumog or Filipino, Indonesian and Vietnamese silat perspective, though some aspects are very Japanese and were probably "stolen" during the time of the occupation of the Philippines or shortly thereafter. As this is an Aikido forum it is not my playground and I try not to stomp all over it. I only really came here in the first place because of the actions of a student and a former student who are members of this board and what was said about the kali system that I head. I apologize to any Aikidoka here who feels I am intruding, and if some of you tell me as Tony would say to "Sod off," well I'll leave. No harm, no foul. I know knife. I know real world violence. If I see something here regarding those topics or others that I know quite a bit about, then I throw out the occasional post. I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming and the tender missives of several people who are active in Aikido and have more experience than I in many facets of that art.

Take care and good luck with your training.

Jon

Last edited by KaliGman : 03-02-2011 at 09:17 PM.
 
Old 03-03-2011, 03:43 AM   #122
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Thank you, Sensei.

Actually, Jack Poole's picture even reminds me a bit of Tony's--though Jack looks rather more "saintly"???

That's quite a story you've got there. I can understand your pride and protectiveness about the history of aikido in UK. It's a hell of a fierce and incredible thing. Frankly, I doubt I could have made it at the Hut. My hat remains off to you, sir.

When did you say you'll be in the US this year? April in Arizona? Your book is on my list...I just can't seem to whittle the list down, but I'm going to get yours. I told Ellis Amdur that and I bought his book, eventually. I'm looking forward to reading yours as well.

Best to you.

David
David
Can you imagine how I / we felt as the pioneers of UK Aikido standing in line to meet the Mayor of Birmingham to receive an award for our many years of Aikido and its promotion from the 1950s, I heard a shuffle behind me, I looked around, It was JP an old ``student`` of mine, receiving the same award as the rest of us, this was being presented by the crass UK governing body for Aikido....

Due to present health problems, I am having to rethink the date of my visit to the USA, if things improve I hope to visit NM in late May..

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/
 
Old 03-03-2011, 04:08 AM   #123
Hellis
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Jon Holloway

That was a very interesting and informative post.

"""I do not pop in here that often"""

I hope you will `pop in` more often......

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-blogs.blogspot.com/
 
Old 03-03-2011, 09:08 AM   #124
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Have to start waving my wand then, now where is that tea cosy....?
I will make an apology to Graham Jenkins as I misread it as Graham Christian.....
 
Old 03-03-2011, 11:59 AM   #125
David Orange
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
David,

Where did you get your information regarding cab driver mortality in the United States? I have never seen a study which showed that the number one cause of death for a cab driver in the U.S. was a bullet to the back of the head. In fact, when it comes to overall victimization rather than the "shoot the cabbie" sport that your post seems to indicate as prevalent in the United States, I can't really recall a good study which showed cab driver victimization to be this extreme in the U.S. The last Bureau of Justice Statistics study I saw regarding workplace violence had cab drivers listed as highly likely to be victimized compared to other transportation workers, but police officers had a level of victimization that was far and away higher than that of any other class of workers. Since I keep track of violence against law enforcement trends, as I have taught officer survival classes at a police academy or two, provide training for my federal task force on a recurring basis, and have a distinct aversion to being shot, I do know that the most prevalent assault on law enforcement is not a bullet to the back of the head, and that a gunshot to the back of the head is not the most common cause of mortality amongst police officers. Since cops, who are victimized far more often than cabbies, do not die in the manner you suggest, I don't think your hypothesis can be supported in relation to cab driver mortality.
Jon, I can't really tell, but it sounds as if you think I said that cab driver murders are the number one cause of death in the US or something.

That's not what I said and I didn't relate it at all to LEOs. I said that the number one way cab drivers are killed in the US is being shot in the back of the head--as compared to being jumped or choked or whatever.

Maybe I'm wrong. I certainly didn't base it on statistics but just from my readings of various reports of cab driver deaths. It seems like there's seldom any warning. The killer just gets the driver to take him where he wants to go, then shoots him when he stops. I'd be glad to see any statistics you have on it, but that's my impression. Anyway, it's a comparison to Tony's report of people manhandling drivers. I just said "They don't do it that way here. They just shoot you."

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
Your post seemed to indicate that the most common robbery tactic in the United States, if robbing a cab driver, would be to shoot the driver and then rob him. In general, Uniform Crime Report and National Victimization Survey data indicate that most robberies are "contractual" in nature. In other words, a threat display of a weapon is involved in order for the robber to get the victim to agree to turn over valuables. Shoot or assault first robberies do occur, but were not the norm.
I also wasn't referring to robberies, per se, but to murders of cab drivers.

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
If you based your opinion on violence against cab drivers on personal anecdotes, your own experiences or the like, I will have to say that it does not match my experience. In the last couple of decades I have worked, at a municipal and/or federal law enforcement level, in multiple states within the United States. I currently run a task force specifically set up to address violent crime. I don't see the kind of victimization that you suggest.
I hope the comments above make my meaning clearer. And, again, if you have statistics on cab driver murders, specifically, I'll be glad to see them.

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
Now as to your assertion regarding having faced multiple armed attackers, I really would like to know what you define as an attack. I don't see how you survive more than one armed attack without fighting, unless you have always been in a position to run away rather than fight (which is a very good option, but one that is, sadly often eliminated by the attackers so their prey does not escape—i.e. you get surrounded or manhandled/controlled), or you were discussing robberies and you gave up property or negotiated with them and were able to end up without getting hit or shot or having to hit or shoot someone (once again, often a desirable outcome considering the alternatives, but often eliminated by the bad guys).
Well, since ultimately "nothing" happened, there's no way I can describe the situations that you can't discount them, but in each case I guess you could say I spoiled the contractual transaction.

However, here is the first incident, involving a single attacker, who was apparently unarmed.

I was alone, about two AM, walking home about three blocks from a coffee shop. I was crossing a large parking lot behind some buildings on a main street. The only other person around was a guy crossing the same parking lot from the other direction. I thought nothing of it, but as we progressed, his path brought him closer and closer to my path. I still didn't think anything of it, but as we passed in opposite directions, he was only a few feet away from me. When we were just passing, he suddenly turned and made as if to lunge at me, grab me in a bear hug and drive me to the ground where I suppose he intended to mount me and pound my face until I just gave up my money.

Little did he know, I HAD no money!

But just as he turned and started to lunge for me, my body instantly turned to face him and my te gatana started to come up. This shocked his sh*t and he turned back to his original heading and continued away. I just laughed it off and went on home but if he had continued his move, I would have thrown him with sumi otoshi before I knew what I'd done.

So "nothing" happened but if I hadn't reacted as I did, I have no doubt I would have been assaulted. So I know you wouldn't call it an "attack" but it was.

Briefly, I've been confronted a number of times by angry people, crazy people, muggers and robbers and the outcome has always been the same. They realized that they were stepping into something they hadn't counted on and they changed their minds before something bad happened to them. As Sokaku Takeda said, "The art of aiki is to overcome the opponent mentally, at a glance, and win without fighting."

In one case, I almost stepped into a trap when I found two guys sitting on the hood of a car parked next to mine. One guy got off the hood of the car and brought out a knife as he walked to the end of my car. My immediate intuition was that he would get to the end of the cars as I reached my driver's door and that he would then turn and approach me with the knife before I could open the door, while the other guy would follow me between the cars to sandwich me in. I believe the second guy had a pistol.

I avoided this by not stepping between the cars and sure enough, the guy with the knife reached the end of the cars and turned around, expecting to see me trying to get into my car. But I wasn't there. I was still standing near his friend, who sat grinning at me. If either of them had moved, I was going to back fist the seated guy in the head, knock him off the car and disarm him. But neither of them moved. It looked like a football play they had worked out carefully, but I just hadn't stepped into it. Since they couldn't rob me discreetly, they both left the scene.

There have been a handful of such incidents since about 1976--six or eight--in one of the most dangerous cities in the US, according to the FBI: third most dangerous this year, I believe. I've walked alone, unarmed, all over this town for half my life.

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
Every time I have been attacked, it has been by people who tried to hit, shoot, stab, cut, bludgeon, run me over with a vehicle (I once ended up on the hood of a Plymouth and don't recommend the experience), or otherwise injure me. I could not negotiate or escape and, a time or two, if I had not "gone ugly early" and fought and injured my opponents, I would not have survived. I have talked and otherwise defused far more situations than have resulted in fighting and violence, but when I have been attacked rather than threatened, I have had to fight.
Not being an LEO, I haven't gotten into the kinds of things you have, but my father and grandfather were both LEOs and I was taking guns apart, cleaning them and reassembling them when I was ten years old. I grew up shooting and I fired pistols, rifles, shotguns and automatic weapons as a kid. My first MA teachers were LEO and one of them was a reserve Marine. I started in kyokshin karate and the Marine taught me some solid lessons. I also trained with a friend of his in jujutsu, who was a police instructor and I got a lot of my strategies from him. I've never been robbed and I've never had to "talk my way out" of anything. In each case, the would-be attacker just decided to break off the engagement. Mostly, it was because I spoiled their distance and their timing and presented them with a semi-conscious discomfort that convinced them that there were better things to do that night than mess with the skinny kid with the weird eyes.

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
As for IP/IS or whatever, I don't discuss or comment on those posts, really. I do not have a dog in that fight. I am not that concerned with definitions of what Person X calls internal and Person Y says Person X stole from him or whatever. I have not trained with what constitutes "the big names" in this field on this tiny little subsection of the tiny martial arts section of the Internet. I am concerned with fighting performance in a weapon intense environment and against multiple opponents, as that is directly related to what I do for a living.
If you don't have direct experience with the IP subject it's best just to listen, ask questions or leave it alone. Although you consider it a "tiny little subsection of the tiny martial arts section of the internet," it's a major consideration for masters in Japan and China and it has been for many centuries, going back to India. As far as what you do is physical, it really is a very important consideration. But it doesn't relate that much to firearms. If you're not interested, that's your business, but if you teach 'aikido' it should be an interest for you because it's the essence of what aikido comes from.

As for the arguments, that's just noise and it's really unfortunate because it drives a lot of people away from one of the most important issues in martial arts today.

If you remember about 20 years ago, everyone was still discussing whether grappling arts or striking arts were superior. It was almost unheard of for karate men to actually fight judo and jujutsuka, so people had all kinds of mistaken ideas about how grappling and striking related. Today, thanks to the Gracie family and the UFC and similiar events, we know that grappling is an indispensible part of the martial arts repertoire.

Twenty years from now, people will be looking back and laughing at how we argued about whether IP was relevant to current-day martial arts. By then, those without IP skills just won't be teaching anymore.

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
I think Tony is concerned with this too.
There is "concern" and then there is "concern". One comes from a belief that IP isn't relevant to weapons such as firearms and there is a lot of validity to that. But that's not Tony's point as firearms are almost an imaginary concept where he lives.

The other type of concern, which may hit closer to home for Tony, is that there is something very major and important in MA that he has never encountered and about which he is completely ignorant. Note how he simultaneously dismisses IP as "snake oil" and also claims that "I do that, too.".....

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
Maybe IP/IS or whatever is different than things some of us do, and maybe not so much, as some of us have been exposed to rather varied and interesting training. To be frank, I may play with it later on, but, what interests me now is dealing with multiple cuts and thrust per second from a bladed weapon and gang violence by guys armed with rifles and wearing body armor.
That's definitely outside my experience. I could maybe show you something about sword work, but that's only applicable to swords and similar weapons such as bokken or baseball bats: not irrelevant to self-defense, but certainly not what you're talking about.

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
I guess that a lot of people are annoyed by Tony, a few agree with him, and a lot tolerate him. Personally, Tony reminds me of a couple of relatives of mine. These are the relatives that you want to see during a holiday dinner because they are abrasive, speak their mind, and are guaranteed to amuse you by taking the starch out of a couple of your more stuffy relations.
That has its place, but when the "stuffy relation" is actually a reasonable person and the abrasive "mind speaker" is ignorant of the subject at hand....it's not such fun and the "mind speaker" comes off looking pretty bad. Of course, I was in his position just a few years ago, telling Mike Sigman and Rob John that they didn't know what they were talking about, so I do have compassion for Tony, but when someone insists on maintaining ignorance about a subject and also insists on continuing to argue where he is ignorant, it loses its interesting elements entirely.

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
Of course, I have a, shall we say, "interesting" sense of humor and do not expect everyone to agree with my tastes. I also say that I do not think that Tony is always right in his posts and that I know that he pokes at some people who do not appreciate it and who may be offended. I think he does it with good intentions and sometimes for a bit of fun, but, if you are on the receiving end and you don't like it, I guess that does not always matter.
What you'll see is that everyone really cares more about old Tony than he realizes. He's only two years older than I, and my martial arts run about as long as his and maybe a bit deeper. So he's more a peer to me and I hate to see him miss out on a great boat because he thinks he already knows the story. I think that's the general idea. Sort of like trying to get your cousin not to get totally plastered at the wedding reception again....

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
I do not pop in here that often, and when I do it is primarily to read rather than post. You see, I have not taught jujitsu or Aikido in years. Aside from firearms disciplines and law enforcement specific tactics, I have not taught anything but Albo Kali Silat in the last decade. The grappling I teach is more from a Filipino dumog or Filipino, Indonesian and Vietnamese silat perspective, though some aspects are very Japanese and were probably "stolen" during the time of the occupation of the Philippines or shortly thereafter. As this is an Aikido forum it is not my playground and I try not to stomp all over it. I only really came here in the first place because of the actions of a student and a former student who are members of this board and what was said about the kali system that I head. I apologize to any Aikidoka here who feels I am intruding, and if some of you tell me as Tony would say to "Sod off," well I'll leave.
No, I think it's all relevant and I think that silat has some interesting content and may even include some internal elements, but I don't know that much about it. Silat comes from India, doesn't it? At least in the roots?

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
No harm, no foul. I know knife. I know real world violence. If I see something here regarding those topics or others that I know quite a bit about, then I throw out the occasional post.
I will say that one of the most sobering things I ever experienced was when a fellow very casually brought out a knife at a very inopportune moment. I have no illusions at all that I remain alive on earth (and so far unwounded) simply because God allows it.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 

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