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Old 03-01-2011, 09:43 AM   #76
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Just a short couple of points that I think are central to these discussions.

There is a logical fallacy that is employed which is essentially:
- I train in aikido.
- I have defended myself in a violent situation/martial context...
- Aikido is effective in a violent situation/martial context...

It is also a fallacy to reason:
- I train in aikido
- I was unable to defend myself in [insert scenario]
- Aikido is ineffective in [insert scenario]

I trained in meditation, a guy attacked me and I hit him with a 2x4 which dropped him flat; my mediation is martially effective.

We can train and become martially effective but that does not mean that our training paradigm necessarily is equipping us with martially effective aikido.

Now please feel free to descend into arguing over "what is/isn't aikido" or "what aikido means to me" if that is what you wish...

Using the experience of a specific person in a specific scenario to determine whether a training paradigm produces a) aikido and b) something martially effective is very easy to fall into traps of false logic.

I'm not going to comment at this stage on what does or does not make something martially effective/aikido/etc.

Please feel free to decide for yourselves but bear in mind that your perception does not necessarily equal that of someone else or an objective truth.
That was short?
 
Old 03-01-2011, 09:58 AM   #77
mrlizard123
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
That was short?
Yep. You should hear me when I get going!

PS: That was a reply?

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 03-01-2011, 10:09 AM   #78
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

" Well, it depends on us".

It most certainly does......

Last edited by akiy : 03-02-2011 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
 
Old 03-01-2011, 10:44 AM   #79
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Yep. You should hear me when I get going!

PS: That was a reply?
Sorry I was distracted and pressed the submit button... I was about to say the meditation bit I liked..... I do a fair bit of that when it's quiet.....
 
Old 03-01-2011, 12:20 PM   #80
observer
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'm not really sure Deguchi was the same kind of non-violent pacifist Gandhi was.
I agree. I think he wanted to each member of the sect to become a master of the Ueshiba's art not to defense himself but to be a guardian of peace. Regardless of what he thought about the war.
 
Old 03-01-2011, 12:41 PM   #81
dps
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
I agree. I think he wanted to each member of the sect to become a master of the Ueshiba's art not to defense himself but to be a guardian of peace. Regardless of what he thought about the war.
Deguchi wanted a lot of bodyguards.

He was always getting into trouble because of his religious and political beliefs.

Did Gandhi have bodyguards?

dps

Last edited by dps : 03-01-2011 at 12:44 PM.
 
Old 03-01-2011, 01:35 PM   #82
Jonathan
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Jonathan Hay
"""Like I said, I don't find violence because I don't go looking for it. """

Jonathan
I would suggest that 99% of victims of violence didn't go looking for trouble, it found them, - wrong time, wrong place is often quoted.
Take a look at Tony's video of the innocent mother and child...
I think my statement is generally true. I think the vast majority of people, at least where I am, live quite peaceful lives -- in large part because they aren't frequenting places where violence is a known risk; they aren't engaging in dangerous, illicit practices; and they don't keep company with people who are themselves violent. Certainly, sometimes those living peaceful lives find themselves face to face with unexpected violence, but is this usually the case? I don't think so. I believe, by and large, people who don't go looking for trouble don't find it.

Regards,

Jon.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
 
Old 03-01-2011, 02:24 PM   #83
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
I think my statement is generally true. I think the vast majority of people, at least where I am, live quite peaceful lives -- in large part because they aren't frequenting places where violence is a known risk; they aren't engaging in dangerous, illicit practices; and they don't keep company with people who are themselves violent. Certainly, sometimes those living peaceful lives find themselves face to face with unexpected violence, but is this usually the case? I don't think so. I believe, by and large, people who don't go looking for trouble don't find it.

Regards,

Jon.
I'm so very glad for you, but are you prepared if it does happen?.....
Winchester used to be a sleepy conservative town, but over the last 10 years or so I have seen it change for the worst in many places, especially the council housing estates where crime and anti social behaviour is on the increase, teenagers hanging about on street corners with "nothing to do"
Reason? It costs too much to join anything and it doesn't have alcohol in it...... got a fag mate?......
 
Old 03-01-2011, 02:49 PM   #84
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
I think my statement is generally true. I think the vast majority of people, at least where I am, live quite peaceful lives -- in large part because they aren't frequenting places where violence is a known risk; they aren't engaging in dangerous, illicit practices; and they don't keep company with people who are themselves violent. Certainly, sometimes those living peaceful lives find themselves face to face with unexpected violence, but is this usually the case? I don't think so. I believe, by and large, people who don't go looking for trouble don't find it.

Regards,

Jon.
I think this is the key distinction many of the more "martially-oriented" folks often miss when folks like myself describe coming to a martial art primarily for something other than fighting ability. For someone like Tony, whose job is to often deal with the bar scene and the like, it makes sense he shouldn't take my priorities as his own. We have different needs and goals.
That said, I feel fairly confident my Aikido style is rather effective...at least, in terms of my ability to recognize basic effectiveness, which is based on growing up around wannabes and actual thugs. I have a good idea of the realities born of the streets, if not the gutters. For most people, I would argue the majority of self-defense is mental preparation and situational awareness. The ability to execute when that first awareness fails is crucial, but odds are the mental aspects will usually suffice. If you're worried about being attacked, carry a weapon (like a club) and study your surroundings in detail. Self-Defense courses are probably better for this than most martial arts schools.
I grew up with a saying: presumption is the mother of all muckups. Never assume what you understand is sufficient; test and retest your understanding wherever you can.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 03-01-2011, 04:05 PM   #85
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I think this is the key distinction many of the more "martially-oriented" folks often miss when folks like myself describe coming to a martial art primarily for something other than fighting ability. For someone like Tony, whose job is to often deal with the bar scene and the like, it makes sense he shouldn't take my priorities as his own. We have different needs and goals.
Matthew is correct to a point. This is why I spoke about "reality" being a very fluid thing. An example follows:

I came to the Greater Toronto Area from Trinidad in the Caribbean some years ago (mainly because of escalating crime) and it was interesting to experience a society where the number of violent deaths we experienced in a month in Trinidad was experienced in a year here. And they thought that number was excessive. I felt very safe but also immediately realized that what I would call "effective" martial arts training would be considered extreme by the standards of those who have lived all their life in an extremely safe reality. It was good to feel safe but I found that the result was a lot of sheep walking around who were oblivious to serious, unadulterated violence. As gang activity slowly increases here, we are seeing the effect slowly starting where the average citizen is quite a soft target.

As a result it has been very difficult to explain why I do certain things in martial arts or self defence classes, simply because these folks do not understand this level of violence. There is no point of reference in their mind. For them the experience of severe, focused and calculated violence is something seen on TV or on UFC so the perception of what is "effective" is quite skewed due to lack of any real experience or knowledge.

So while it is true that Tony may have to deal with some of the rougher folks due to his job, it does not mean that only people in his position need to approach training this way. A lot of what is "realistic" depends on where you live and your daily experiences. You may not need to learn how to deal with severe violence because of where you live, but unless you can guarantee that life will always be that way it may be a valid point to consider at some level, especially if you are putting in all these hours in training. Ignorance of reality does not protect one from it ime.

Just some thoughts.

Best
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
 
Old 03-01-2011, 04:14 PM   #86
Alex Megann
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Winchester used to be a sleepy conservative town, but over the last 10 years or so I have seen it change for the worst in many places, especially the council housing estates where crime and anti social behaviour is on the increase, teenagers hanging about on street corners with "nothing to do"
Reason? It costs too much to join anything and it doesn't have alcohol in it...... got a fag mate?......
Winchester still IS a sleepy conservative town - you should try living in Southampton...

Alex
 
Old 03-01-2011, 04:20 PM   #87
Hellis
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Matthew is correct to a point. This is why I spoke about "reality" being a very fluid thing. An example follows:
. A lot of what is "realistic" depends on where you live and your daily experiences. You may not need to learn how to deal with severe violence because of where you live, Just some thoughts.
Best
LC
Larry

Well said !

"""You may not need to learn how to deal with severe violence because of where you live""" One may well need it if they travel beyond their cocoon """

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
 
Old 03-01-2011, 07:36 PM   #88
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Winchester still IS a sleepy conservative town - you should try living in Southampton...

Alex
I am often there taking fares to Southampton to drop of at weekends. I find it no different its just bigger that's all..... yeah you got the Merchant Navy down there, no different to Pompey with Jack performing as usual.....!!
Up here we deal with the Army Training Regiment, Worthy Down logistics core (the Gurkha contingent are great!!) around 8000 student population and the many that come en mass from the army depots at Nether Wallop and Tidworth. Many come from Eastleigh, Chandlers Ford, Alresford, Foremarks,Alton,Basingstoke, Andover, Romsey, Newbury, and even as far as Aldershot, or Bordon (army again), and Guildford, to name but a few, so it can get quite busy of a weekend with plenty of kick offs when they are all in, usually at end of month when salary checks come through, then it's fun and games!!.... so I wouldn't call it sleepy.... in the daytime and early week yes, its the only time we get some peace and can relax a bit..... It's been a bit quiet lately, but that's down to the jobless and money being tighter I guess....
Hairy maybe, but definitely not sleepy....

Tony

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 03-01-2011 at 07:43 PM.
 
Old 03-01-2011, 11:09 PM   #89
David Orange
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
First of all I would like to say thank you Jun for banning me from this site for one month, It seems to me that having controversial opinions and thought is not very welcomed by many on this site.... Then again, it was a welcome break from so many IS/IP threads that were bogging down the forum!!..
Tony, as Jun said earlier, it's usually not the topic that gets you suspended: it's your own attitude and the tone and the wording of your responses to people. As one who's been suspended a few times, myself, I have to agree with him. And as an aikido man, you ought to know that when you have problems, the first place to look is at yourself.

Second, if you think IP/IS threads are bogging down the forum, you have the perfect right to ignore them. No one forces you to come into a serious discussion about which you know nothing and stink it up with "I already do that" while also claiming it's all hogwash. People who understand this topic get a lot of good out of detailed examination of principles and methods and it goes a lot better without someone's trolling out of ignorance. So if you don't like those threads, you don't have to read them. And you certainly don't have to expose yourself to the ridicule that's bound to result when you mouth off about something you don't understand. Simple, isn't it?

Third, as to your pressure testing, it's a fine idea, but don't forget that, once you go that way, there's no end of it. Geoff seems like a well-intentioned fellow. He says he doesn't fancy himself a fighter, but he can defend himself. The problem is, take any man like that and I can find you another man who can pound him into the dirt. Can Geoff defend himself against Mike Tyson, for instance? I seriously doubt it. How will his character stand up with Iron Mike pounding his head? Will he go toe-to-toe or run for his life? If he has any sense, he'll gtfo.

And how will he do if someone decides "That's not pressure-testing!" and will only believe you when you "pressure-test" against a live blade--or against two guys with live blades?

In Japan, as uchi deshi, I was often called out to meet people from around the world who came to train at one of the toughest aikido dojos in Japan. I met people from the US, Canada, UK, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Brazil, Africa, you name it. Sensei would say, "Show this guy what we're doing," and I would have to put on the gi and go face them. And I was almost forty years old then, with accumulating injuries. And more and more I would meet men who were much younger, must stronger, much faster and who already had a lot more experience in martial arts than myself.

This was before UFC, but the Gracies were already advertising $50,000.00 purses to anyone, from any style, who could beat their jujutsu. Everyone in our dojo was impressed by that and I had to face the fact that I was not a professional athlete, even though I had dedicated almost 20 years of my life to aikido up to that time. I had to realize that I could train as hard as I could force myself to go and I would never be able to match these guys who had been living in dojos since their early teens and who simply had better genes and physiques since the day they were born. So I know a little about "pressure testing", having spent years in a dojo where hour-long sutemi randoris were the norm. And I know that while each individual has his limits, "pressure testing" can always go up another notch---or ten.

Tomiki's system is all well and good, but once something becomes a sport, the nature of it changes irrevocably. In the yoseikan, we had a similar thing, only with no scoring. It's not sport if there's no "winner and loser" decided by points, but we always went all-out and when it was over, we knew who had dominated and who had "lost" the bout. But it hardly mattered because as soon as that was over, the next attacker was ready to go. We didn't draw blood on the mat (usually), but no one fell for anything but a fully effective technique. And if the attacker wasn't thrown effectively in the first move, he would follow up with karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu--whatever he was capable of--and it would usually go to the ground for serious grappling until someone was submitted. And that could mean five minutes or more of serious grappling for one attacker, to be followed by four or five more attackers as soon as you got on your feet again. And each one of those attackers would do the same: if you didn't throw them in the first instant of their attack, they would take you to the ground and fight you to submission.

Amazingly, there were very few injuries because of the general high level of conditioning, but I doubt you'll find the same results in Geoff's circles. Anytime there's blood on the mats, there are bound to be some serious injuries, eventually.

If that's what you like to do, go for it, but it's not a good standard for everyone. Are you suggesting that the "young mother" who was attacked on the bus should then go and enroll in Geoff's classes and let someone else pound her head in? Most normal aikido classes would be enough to keep her out of the situation described. But the pressure testing you describe would be only likely to injure her.

Sure, there's room for a lot more demanding aikido practice than we normally find, but simply being more brutal is not likely to fill the need.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Violence happens across the country on a regular basis, in every town, city, week in, week out.... so those of you that say or think it will probably "never happen to me" are so wrong!! The chances are sooner or later it will happen...... You have been lucky so far!! I / We (cabbies) work with the doormen and police here in Winchester UK, that is, those who are switched on, who are aware, who do something about their situation, and do have the bottle to do what is required!! Most of the doormen and police officers I know in Winchester know that I practice and teach aikido. I do get a lot of respect from them, as I do them..... They really do know the reality!! Most openly say in conversation that people are just so totally unaware, so therefore do not take responsibility for themselves in our modern societies, and then wonder why when it does happen they blame everything else except their own inability to take more control of themselves or their own enviroment!!
The problem with your ideas is that they are not really universal. Here in the states, the most common way for a cab driver to die is from a bullet in the back of the head. They don't see it coming. The passenger gives them no hint, no warning, no lip in advance. The driver pulls over to let out his fare and "BOOM!" before he can say "Here we are," he's dead. A jo in the seat might as well be a sword in a museum.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
When people come to me for aikido instruction, I give them a choice....
If you are only doing it for health, that's fine, but you will never achieve Shodan level. I make that a paramount requisite!! Most understand that....
Those that don't, either leave, or carry on knowing that, for them, Shodan level is out of reach unless they go through the pressure testing required for the level. Once Shodan level has been reached we have refresher sessions to make sure they keep 'alive' the 'reality sessions'
Yeah. The problem is, for real life-and-death situations, what you describe is not very realistic at all. Tough as it is, it's a fantasy in a world where people shoot first and issue threats later.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Half of my altercations with the idiot public have gone to the ground, so I teach newaza all the same, with all the dirty cheating methods incorporated!!. The ground is not a good place to be, but that is the reality for most fights or altercations.....
Sounds like playing, really--where people aren't fighting to kill, but just to let off some steam after drinking too much. I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the US and I've never been in "a fight" despite walking the streets alone for half my life. I've faced armed attackers, multiple attackers, multiple armed attackers, crazy people, ex-cons, various kinds of crooks and I've had all kinds of people show up at my aikido classes. And I never had to touch but one of them and never got in a fight with any of them--and never went to the ground with any of them, despite my long experience in judo, jujutsu and newaza. So maybe you're looking at things from a mistaken perspective, somehow? Never hurts to ask yourself that, does it?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
In addition to that my regime of isometric/isotonic exercise (my own version of I/S or I/P training if you want to call it that!!)
All those who harp on about IP or IS?...
Everyone I know who's into IP/IS uses not "their own version" of it, but relies on that that comes from China and Japan...and none of them agree with you on it, so....again....maybe you ought to learn more and harp less?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Just train with uncooperative partners or players as we have done in T/S aikido since its inception!! Or better still take up MMA, judo or whatever has resistance in it, you will be better off, plus you will soon find out how to move people! I will keep practising until my body will not allow me to do so anymore. Then it will be time to retire gracefully....
Training harder has its benefits, but it usually comes with injuries that never go away. Training smarter (IP/IS) seems to work better for those who really develop it.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
It's about time that those who practice aikido as dance, get wise and start doing an aikido we can all be proud of again..... Or carry on dreaming the dance in most cases!!
Better still remove their black belts, give up their excuse for what they consider aikido and join a good dance and social club, it would be far better health wise, for them and aikido!!
That's true, but how many people really are past criticism? Who can present impeccable aikido without flaw? Neither you nor I, bud. And maybe we'd do better to find the flaw in our own approaches rather than spend the time criticizing others.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
After all this time some are beginning to wake up to the reality, and have found out that it can be done, but it takes hard work, usually shunned by most!!
Tony, I know I passed the point where pure "hard work" could take me any further and I think you have passed that point, as well. What's needed is not more of the same but to get a deeper insight into the real truth of aikido's inner workings--to get to the truth of what O Sensei was doing and actually change our way of approaching aikido. And that way allows us to continue improving past the point that simply working "harder" on the same old stuff can take us.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
What is the point of learning a martial art if you don't want to learn to defend yourself?
And what's the point of incurring life-long injuries that could one day be the difference in living or dying in a real encounter? What's the point of crippling yourself in the name of "defending yourself"?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Just remember that an ineffective aikido can also be detrimental to your health and well being!!
And sometimes it's the overly tough and less-than-insightful approach that makes aikido less effective. Ever consider that?

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 03-02-2011, 02:30 AM   #90
sakumeikan
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Hi All,
Read this blog with interest. While I can see some merit in what Tiny is saying I feel that no matter how you train or develop your skill level there is always someone fitter, faster , bigger and nastier than you around the corner. The trick is to avoid meeting him/or when you do recognize the situation.
I think Aikido can assist you in judging situations. Body language for example cab influence the situation in a positive /negative manner.
As for unprovoked attacks , even the best prepared guy cannot do too much against this type of offense.
All we can do I think is keep our wits about us, use common sense and if push comes to shove , do the best we can and hope the outcome favours us.
 
Old 03-02-2011, 02:32 AM   #91
sakumeikan
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Sorry I meant to say Tony not Tiny!! My apologies Tony .
Joe.
 
Old 03-02-2011, 04:51 AM   #92
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Tony, as Jun said earlier, it's usually not the topic that gets you suspended: it's your own attitude and the tone and the wording of your responses to people. As one who's been suspended a few times, myself, I have to agree with him. And as an aikido man, you ought to know that when you have problems, the first place to look is at yourself.

Second, if you think IP/IS threads are bogging down the forum, you have the perfect right to ignore them. No one forces you to come into a serious discussion about which you know nothing and stink it up with "I already do that" while also claiming it's all hogwash. People who understand this topic get a lot of good out of detailed examination of principles and methods and it goes a lot better without someone's trolling out of ignorance. So if you don't like those threads, you don't have to read them. And you certainly don't have to expose yourself to the ridicule that's bound to result when you mouth off about something you don't understand. Simple, isn't it?

Third, as to your pressure testing, it's a fine idea, but don't forget that, once you go that way, there's no end of it. Geoff seems like a well-intentioned fellow. He says he doesn't fancy himself a fighter, but he can defend himself. The problem is, take any man like that and I can find you another man who can pound him into the dirt. Can Geoff defend himself against Mike Tyson, for instance? I seriously doubt it. How will his character stand up with Iron Mike pounding his head? Will he go toe-to-toe or run for his life? If he has any sense, he'll gtfo.

And how will he do if someone decides "That's not pressure-testing!" and will only believe you when you "pressure-test" against a live blade--or against two guys with live blades?

In Japan, as uchi deshi, I was often called out to meet people from around the world who came to train at one of the toughest aikido dojos in Japan. I met people from the US, Canada, UK, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Brazil, Africa, you name it. Sensei would say, "Show this guy what we're doing," and I would have to put on the gi and go face them. And I was almost forty years old then, with accumulating injuries. And more and more I would meet men who were much younger, must stronger, much faster and who already had a lot more experience in martial arts than myself.

This was before UFC, but the Gracies were already advertising $50,000.00 purses to anyone, from any style, who could beat their jujutsu. Everyone in our dojo was impressed by that and I had to face the fact that I was not a professional athlete, even though I had dedicated almost 20 years of my life to aikido up to that time. I had to realize that I could train as hard as I could force myself to go and I would never be able to match these guys who had been living in dojos since their early teens and who simply had better genes and physiques since the day they were born. So I know a little about "pressure testing", having spent years in a dojo where hour-long sutemi randoris were the norm. And I know that while each individual has his limits, "pressure testing" can always go up another notch---or ten.

Tomiki's system is all well and good, but once something becomes a sport, the nature of it changes irrevocably. In the yoseikan, we had a similar thing, only with no scoring. It's not sport if there's no "winner and loser" decided by points, but we always went all-out and when it was over, we knew who had dominated and who had "lost" the bout. But it hardly mattered because as soon as that was over, the next attacker was ready to go. We didn't draw blood on the mat (usually), but no one fell for anything but a fully effective technique. And if the attacker wasn't thrown effectively in the first move, he would follow up with karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu--whatever he was capable of--and it would usually go to the ground for serious grappling until someone was submitted. And that could mean five minutes or more of serious grappling for one attacker, to be followed by four or five more attackers as soon as you got on your feet again. And each one of those attackers would do the same: if you didn't throw them in the first instant of their attack, they would take you to the ground and fight you to submission.

Amazingly, there were very few injuries because of the general high level of conditioning, but I doubt you'll find the same results in Geoff's circles. Anytime there's blood on the mats, there are bound to be some serious injuries, eventually.

If that's what you like to do, go for it, but it's not a good standard for everyone. Are you suggesting that the "young mother" who was attacked on the bus should then go and enroll in Geoff's classes and let someone else pound her head in? Most normal aikido classes would be enough to keep her out of the situation described. But the pressure testing you describe would be only likely to injure her.

Sure, there's room for a lot more demanding aikido practice than we normally find, but simply being more brutal is not likely to fill the need.

The problem with your ideas is that they are not really universal. Here in the states, the most common way for a cab driver to die is from a bullet in the back of the head. They don't see it coming. The passenger gives them no hint, no warning, no lip in advance. The driver pulls over to let out his fare and "BOOM!" before he can say "Here we are," he's dead. A jo in the seat might as well be a sword in a museum.

Yeah. The problem is, for real life-and-death situations, what you describe is not very realistic at all. Tough as it is, it's a fantasy in a world where people shoot first and issue threats later.

Sounds like playing, really--where people aren't fighting to kill, but just to let off some steam after drinking too much. I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the US and I've never been in "a fight" despite walking the streets alone for half my life. I've faced armed attackers, multiple attackers, multiple armed attackers, crazy people, ex-cons, various kinds of crooks and I've had all kinds of people show up at my aikido classes. And I never had to touch but one of them and never got in a fight with any of them--and never went to the ground with any of them, despite my long experience in judo, jujutsu and newaza. So maybe you're looking at things from a mistaken perspective, somehow? Never hurts to ask yourself that, does it?

Everyone I know who's into IP/IS uses not "their own version" of it, but relies on that that comes from China and Japan...and none of them agree with you on it, so....again....maybe you ought to learn more and harp less?

Training harder has its benefits, but it usually comes with injuries that never go away. Training smarter (IP/IS) seems to work better for those who really develop it.

That's true, but how many people really are past criticism? Who can present impeccable aikido without flaw? Neither you nor I, bud. And maybe we'd do better to find the flaw in our own approaches rather than spend the time criticizing others.

Tony, I know I passed the point where pure "hard work" could take me any further and I think you have passed that point, as well. What's needed is not more of the same but to get a deeper insight into the real truth of aikido's inner workings--to get to the truth of what O Sensei was doing and actually change our way of approaching aikido. And that way allows us to continue improving past the point that simply working "harder" on the same old stuff can take us.

And what's the point of incurring life-long injuries that could one day be the difference in living or dying in a real encounter? What's the point of crippling yourself in the name of "defending yourself"?

And sometimes it's the overly tough and less-than-insightful approach that makes aikido less effective. Ever consider that?

Best wishes.

David
Then you basically know what I know, as for me playing or getting more injuries, I have only had a few, but that goes with all budo or any form of physical training. When you have been to nice to someone and they put a heavy glass ashtray round the side of your head and then proceed to stomp all over you head, that is just playing around is it? No we don't carry guns in this country, but then again maybe we should when we see the likes of Derek Bird a taxi driver gone stark raving bananas because he couldn't cope with life, sad as that is, or the cab driver in Eastleigh beat to a pulp and then set on fire inside his own cab!! So the states are a little violent? Yeah I've heard that. so American violence is bigger, better than British violence eh? Violence is the same where ever you go, drink and drugs make sure of that....
As for my version of IP/ IS I think I will stick to it David, I can't afford the 115 quid a day to "learn" it and then be told to come back in a year to see if I have improved. I don't think anyone would want to take on Mike Tyson, Henry Cooper, Muhammed Ali, Lenny Mclean, or people like Jon Bluming or a few other's we could blabber on about. Yes I know my limits as I'm sure Mr Morihei Ueshiba did or anyone with common sense, come to that, either that or they think they are god like and when that happens, oh dear! look out gullible world!!
No you carry on blabbering about your experience as I'm sure its all very interesting and we should all bow in respect of your efforts and experience, well done Dave.
Me I would rather spend my money on something more worthwhile like a nice holiday in the sun or visiting all my friends in Tokyo when I go there in May, my first holiday in ten years!! They have been so kind to invite me as in reality I would not be able to afford it....
Go and enjoy your path to enlightenment and as I say at a 115 a day you are welcome to it..... shades off Dillman to my reckoning.
But that's me, I'm a stubborn son of a bitch as they say your side of the pond.....

Take care David

Regards

Tony
 
Old 03-02-2011, 04:54 AM   #93
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Sorry I meant to say Tony not Tiny!! My apologies Tony .
Joe.
Joe I've been called a lot worse.....
 
Old 03-02-2011, 05:04 AM   #94
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi All,
Read this blog with interest. While I can see some merit in what Tiny is saying I feel that no matter how you train or develop your skill level there is always someone fitter, faster , bigger and nastier than you around the corner. The trick is to avoid meeting him/or when you do recognize the situation.
I think Aikido can assist you in judging situations. Body language for example cab influence the situation in a positive /negative manner.
As for unprovoked attacks , even the best prepared guy cannot do too much against this type of offense.
All we can do I think is keep our wits about us, use common sense and if push comes to shove , do the best we can and hope the outcome favours us.
You have it Joe!! That is good common sense....
 
Old 03-02-2011, 05:53 AM   #95
john.burn
 
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Dojo: Chishin Dojo
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Go and enjoy your path to enlightenment and as I say at a 115 a day you are welcome to it.....
Tony,

No wonder you get into so much grief - if I was given a final fare price double what I was told, I'd be less than impressed... The two IP guys who are over here for the weekend seminars are teaching for around 7 hours BOTH days for around 120 or so... Hardly 115 per day mate, it's about 60.

Ikeda sensei is over here in 2012, I'll cover your course fee to come feel someone who can do this stuff. You can't really refuse to turn up then can you?

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
 
Old 03-02-2011, 05:58 AM   #96
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

The question is not if Aikido is a martial art up to reality, the question is why your (everyone) aikido is a martial art up to your (everyone) reality?
 
Old 03-02-2011, 06:08 AM   #97
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Go and enjoy your path to enlightenment and as I say at a 115 a day you are welcome to it..... shades off Dillman to my reckoning.
Tony,

it's amazing quite how wrong you can be sometimes.

Who is charging 115/day?

Dan's workshop (which is what I am assuming you are alluding to)works out at between 50 - 60 per day from 10 till 6 which roughly works out at about 7/hour or about the same as a yoga teacher might charge or for that matter an Aikido teacher if they have to cover costs in somewhere like London.

Enlightenment isn't being offered as far as I know, but some good solid training is.

Dan Harden / shades of George Dillman? you obviously haven't been reading or rather understanding, a word of what Dan has been saying have you?

I personally was sceptical of what Mike Sigman and Dan Harden where saying when I first came to these forums over 5 years ago. But rather than stick with I know what I know, I stumped up the money and the weekend of my time and went to see Mike when he came over here. Mike's weekend was fun and very useful, his way of explaining and demonstrating what he could do, gave me a way of understanding my own abilities in a deeper more concise way. Which in turn allowed me a wider way of explaining to my students, what was actually going on in good 'aiki'/kokyo practice. Was it worth the time, cost and effort? Yest it was.

If I get the same or more from Dan, I will be just as pleased. I value the open mind that I have and I want to keep learning. There is always a cost to learning, whether it be time, money, effort, blood sweat or tears.

You seem happy to extol the virtues of your stubborn narrow mindedness, good for you! but why keep criticising those not who are not like you?

I'm thinking it may just be a complex

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 03-02-2011, 06:28 AM   #98
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Tony,
let's take stock (I will leave out titles):

- you've called a Karate student of Kenji Ushiro a bunny....
- you've called someone a bunny who could point out his lineage goes to both Gozo Shioda and TK Chiba, through long direct teaching of Kanetsuka Sensei...
- you've said you are not interested in the opinion of an uchideshi of Minoru Mochizuki...
- you keep making blanket derogatory statements about the Ki society as if Koichi Tohei had not been one of the most important students of O-Sensei...
- you keep misquoting prices of IP seminars and then accuse the teachers of wanting to make a fast buck...
- you seem to think Mike and Dan cannot fight (that's actually funny)
- you have not met any of these people, ever...

So quite clearly you are blissfully unaware what you are talking about, and there seems to be no aikido authority outside of your own self that you are willing to acknowledge. Fair enough, this is the internet, and some say the narcissistic era (though they mean teenagers) - but why are you here to talk to us at all? Just looking for approval?

Anyway, we can update the list above every now and then, maybe there comes a point where even you will find it embarassing...

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 03-02-2011 at 06:31 AM. Reason: proper address
 
Old 03-02-2011, 07:13 AM   #99
Gorgeous George
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
Tony,
let's take stock (I will leave out titles):

- you've called a Karate student of Kenji Ushiro a bunny....
- you've called someone a bunny who could point out his lineage goes to both Gozo Shioda and TK Chiba, through long direct teaching of Kanetsuka Sensei...
- you've said you are not interested in the opinion of an uchideshi of Minoru Mochizuki...
- you keep making blanket derogatory statements about the Ki society as if Koichi Tohei had not been one of the most important students of O-Sensei...
- you keep misquoting prices of IP seminars and then accuse the teachers of wanting to make a fast buck...
- you seem to think Mike and Dan cannot fight (that's actually funny)
- you have not met any of these people, ever...

So quite clearly you are blissfully unaware what you are talking about, and there seems to be no aikido authority outside of your own self that you are willing to acknowledge.
http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/...-chip-fail.jpg
 
Old 03-02-2011, 09:31 AM   #100
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
I came to the Greater Toronto Area from Trinidad in the Caribbean some years ago (mainly because of escalating crime) and it was interesting to experience a society where the number of violent deaths we experienced in a month in Trinidad was experienced in a year here. And they thought that number was excessive. I felt very safe but also immediately realized that what I would call "effective" martial arts training would be considered extreme by the standards of those who have lived all their life in an extremely safe reality. It was good to feel safe but I found that the result was a lot of sheep walking around who were oblivious to serious, unadulterated violence. As gang activity slowly increases here, we are seeing the effect slowly starting where the average citizen is quite a soft target.

As a result it has been very difficult to explain why I do certain things in martial arts or self defence classes, simply because these folks do not understand this level of violence. There is no point of reference in their mind. For them the experience of severe, focused and calculated violence is something seen on TV or on UFC so the perception of what is "effective" is quite skewed due to lack of any real experience or knowledge.
I've heard this before from people who came from more dangerous or higher crime countries - not specifically in a 'fighting' context but things like people's level of awareness when they're walking down a street or stopped in a traffic jam - and interestingly to me, I've heard it go the other way, too... For example a friend of mine from Toronto has been living for several years now in a small Japanese town. One time when he came back for a visit he made a comment that he felt like he had lost a lot of his protective 'city' instincts.... For example apparently where he's been living when people park their cars not only do they not lock them, they frequently leave the keys in the ignition for convenience .
 

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