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Old 02-24-2011, 03:16 PM   #76
Keith Larman
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Re: uke getting hurt

And another plonk...

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Old 02-24-2011, 07:05 PM   #77
Marc Abrams
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Marc and Keith. I see no problem with the story given. Done it many hundreds of times. I am surprised however by your views on no pain.

Keith, you tell a story of what you did and there was no pain except a rejection by the recipient.

So I find it funny that it tends to equate with roses in the garden and unreality justified by not only you saying we must remember it's a martial art.

So martial equals pain? Mmmm.

Effective, yes. Definite, yes. A 'soft' nikkyo is much more powerful and inescapable and effective than what you may be used to. One day you'll experience one.

Regards.G.
Graham:

Maybe, just maybe your experience base is far less than some of the posters here. Maybe, just maybe your believes may be more idealistic than reality might dictate.

Do you really know what Keith has experienced? Maybe you should reserve comment until you know what that person can and cannot do. Heck, he might have more years training in martial arts than you have been alive. Your attempts to teach/lecture/inform others tend to fall short to those who are more seasoned, capable and experienced than you appear to be.

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-24-2011, 07:23 PM   #78
lbb
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Re: uke getting hurt

Keith, David, Marc, take it easy, guys!. Graham is just using the story as another jumping-off point.

(watch out, that first step's a lulu!)

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Old 02-24-2011, 08:44 PM   #79
Michael Hackett
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Re: uke getting hurt

Yes, but he has demonstrated how good his ukemi is such falls.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:14 PM   #80
kewms
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Effective, yes. Definite, yes. A 'soft' nikkyo is much more powerful and inescapable and effective than what you may be used to. One day you'll experience one.
I have. But even a soft nikkyo can be rendered painful if uke is sufficiently determined.

That is, pain is not inherent in the lock. But once the lock is applied, uke can generally inflict pain on himself by fighting against it.

Katherine
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:14 PM   #81
graham christian
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I have. But even a soft nikkyo can be rendered painful if uke is sufficiently determined.

That is, pain is not inherent in the lock. But once the lock is applied, uke can generally inflict pain on himself by fighting against it.

Katherine
Katherine. O.K. That is your experience. I am saying it is not only possible it is done the way I describe by people who can do it. It is a reality. I am not joking when I say I am surprised more people can't do it or havn't experienced it on a regular basis.

Mary, be careful I'm I'm using it as a jump off point to.......? Mmmm. You love it.

Marc, just maybe I acknowledged what Keith said and just maybe I said I've done it. Just maybe I've validated what he said, not gone against it. So your comments are misplaced.

Also he may or may not have more experience than me if he is 70 years old or somethimg, not that it matters that much.

It's a good story and resonates with others experiences, I like it.

Mary disagreed with something about it and I understand what she was saying, obviously many don't here. So I put it to you it is a few here who are using that as a jump off point to put others down instead of discuss the the validity of what Mary said for that's all I did.

Who knows, something could be learned?

Regards .G.
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:58 PM   #82
Gary David
 
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
.

Also he may or may not have more experience than me if he is 70 years old or somethimg, not that it matters that much.
.
Graham I've been in Aikido since 1974, 68 years old and have turned a few corners. Nikkyo is a joint lock and by definition a certain level of applied pain is possible dependent upon the actions taken by either the nage or the uke...or both. If nage and uke both stay at the point of contact/conflict (the joint lock) with the uke actively trying to get out of the lock a high level of pain will be realized if the nage wishes to maintain control. If either the nage or uke work away from the point of contact secondary pressures are involved. What I would call a soft nikkyo would be possible if the secondary pressure is sourced from the dantien with connections to the ground. The nikkyo is then a byproduct of the destabilization effort but still must be maintained as a lock and the start point for the process. Even here the potential for pain exists. I am not sure what a soft nikkyo is to you.
Gary
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:29 PM   #83
graham christian
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham I've been in Aikido since 1974, 68 years old and have turned a few corners. Nikkyo is a joint lock and by definition a certain level of applied pain is possible dependent upon the actions taken by either the nage or the uke...or both. If nage and uke both stay at the point of contact/conflict (the joint lock) with the uke actively trying to get out of the lock a high level of pain will be realized if the nage wishes to maintain control. If either the nage or uke work away from the point of contact secondary pressures are involved. What I would call a soft nikkyo would be possible if the secondary pressure is sourced from the dantien with connections to the ground. The nikkyo is then a byproduct of the destabilization effort but still must be maintained as a lock and the start point for the process. Even here the potential for pain exists. I am not sure what a soft nikkyo is to you.
Gary
Hi Gary. I understand and agree with what you say there. When you mention soft nikkyo coming from dantien with connections to the ground that is nearer what I call soft nikkyo.

Terms like ground force or connect to ground I call koshi. Dantien I call center. So nikkyo done with good center and koshi I say is a very powerful nikkyo and very definite and unarguable. However this is not what I mean exactly by soft nikkyo.

Those two principles mentioned, working together produce that result. When all principles work together in Aikido then it becomes very soft yet inescapable. The person doesn't want to escape, how could they for they feel better. This is what I mean by soft nikkyo. When all comes together in such a way I call that true kokyu.

Imagine someone putting their arm around your shoulder and digging their fingers into say the base of the side of your neck in order to take your mind or cause whatever in order to put you down on the ground.

Now imagine someone putting their arm around your shoulder and despite what you fear they are up to your body just relaxes and you feel extremely comfortable and find yourself sitting down as if the two of you are sitting down on a sofa. It all feels so natural. That's what I mean.

When you hear an old master or someone renowned saying things like the true true sword is healing or true budo is love then you can see they meant it , it's real. Hard to achieve, maybe, but real nonetheless.

Hope that explains what I mean.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-25-2011, 06:12 AM   #84
Basia Halliop
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Re: uke getting hurt

Graham wrote: "Keith, you tell a story of what you did and there was no pain except a rejection by the recipient."

Umm, are we reading the same thread?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
Saw a guy repeatedly start to get up after being taken down while the instructor was saying "stay down until I let you back up". The instructor kept releasing the lock because he didn't want to hurt the guy. But after about the third time he just left it on. Didn't crank anything but the guy came up and ran right into it, hurting his shoulder. And he got upset that he was injured. Idiot.
Quote:
Keith wrote: Re: uke getting hurt
Again, as I said before, this thread was started by taking a short comment out of context of another thread. The instructor did *NOT* injure the student. The instructor allowed the student to come up into a sankyo and feel that he was locked up and that it was painful. It was not more than what you'd find in any relatively high level practice. He was NOT injured.
Quote:
Basia wrote: E.g. if he was trying to show the uke how to take safer ukemi and show them that attempting to force their way through a pin could be ill-advised or could get them hurt, then doing it in such a way that uke can't even try to do the ill-advised thing might not be a very clear way of demonstrating that... It would show that that teacher can stop such an uke (and might provide opportunities to give tips on how to stop an uke from getting out of a pin), but that might not have been what the teacher was trying to show that uke.
Quote:
Keith wrote: Basia -- Yup, that was precisely what he was trying to teach. How to properly take ukemi to *avoid* potential injury. He repeatedly ignored the instruction. The Shihan allowed him to push into the joint lock in a safe controlled fashion, vastly (for him) better than letting someone else with less control or training just crank him. Which is likely what would have eventually happened.
Of course you can often have effective joint locks that aren't painful, I'm sure we've all felt them, but that's not what's being discussed here, is it? We were AFAIK discussing the degree to which teachers SHOULD protect students from themselves, not what was humanly possible. IMO it's not even all that relevant to the discussion, but maybe that's just how it seems to me?

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 02-25-2011 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 02-25-2011, 06:24 AM   #85
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: uke getting hurt

Using the content of the orginal quote, I think the responses show a differences in styles,in teaching and in training. This is not a judgement of a particular teacher or incident.
Our style of teaching and training is to always err on the side of
caution. Many people in our dojo are not young, or are very young, their risk for injury may be more than they know.
We are training to develop correct feeling. Pain can be a good teacher. A good teacher can allow a little pain in the right circumstances. Caution should be used.
Every student is a person in their own right and has dignity and value.
Mary
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Old 02-25-2011, 06:43 AM   #86
Basia Halliop
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Re: uke getting hurt

To me exploring the feeling of pain (and similarly fear) and learning to understand what different kinds of discomfort and pain (and fear) mean in different situations (should you ignore it, should you move away/around/etc and how, are you about to injure yourself if you don't immediately change something, etc) is valuable in and of itself.... Everyone I expect has their own ideal amount that works for them in training and I can easily imagine being somewhere where it was used in a way that was too much for me or I didn't feel benefited me, but OTOH I don't think I'd want to train somewhere where no one EVER felt ANY pain. Too many opportunities lost.
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Old 02-25-2011, 07:00 AM   #87
Marc Abrams
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Keith, David, Marc, take it easy, guys!. Graham is just using the story as another jumping-off point.

(watch out, that first step's a lulu!)

Mary:

I think he already landed...... Your link says it all...... Could not have represented reality better than that!

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-25-2011, 08:26 AM   #88
C. David Henderson
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Re: uke getting hurt

I love the ocean air.

David Henderson
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Old 02-25-2011, 08:30 AM   #89
C. David Henderson
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
[It] is a few here who are using that as a jump off point to put others down instead of discuss the the validity of what Mary said for that's all I did.
What post? Are you sure you are reading it as intended (this time)? Why assume? Why not ask?

I agree there are opportunities to learn from this thread; do you include yourself as those who might learn something of value?

David Henderson
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:18 AM   #90
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Using the content of the orginal quote, I think the responses show a differences in styles,in teaching and in training. This is not a judgement of a particular teacher or incident.
Our style of teaching and training is to always err on the side of
caution. Many people in our dojo are not young, or are very young, their risk for injury may be more than they know.
We are training to develop correct feeling. Pain can be a good teacher. A good teacher can allow a little pain in the right circumstances. Caution should be used.
Every student is a person in their own right and has dignity and value.
Mary
Not a thing here I would disagree with. I think the reaction was mostly based on the fact that we have all seen dojos in which the students are so protected that it's simply not a martial art any more. My friend, James Bartee Sensei, a former Secret Service agent, calls these "happy dojos".

There are dojos around where, if a student gets hit with a shomen uchi, the whole class stops as if some serious accident has occurred. I have seen it. There is so little expectation of contact that when it does occur people are shocked. At a seminar, I had a partner who was pulling his strikes. I told him to hit me. He wouldn't. I told him that I wasn't going to do the technique until he actually attacked me. After FIVE tries I finally got him to touch my head lightly with his shomen strike.

I go to places at which no one has experienced the range of technique that is possible on a lock like nikkyo. I have experienced a nikkyop that feels like what Graham describes... it's how Popkin Sensei does it in his Daito Ryu. You feel nothing on the wrist and your center is on the ground. I have also experienced Chiba Sensei's nikkyo, which is quite simply a force of nature and makes your wrist feel like it's being ripped off. What I currently do myself is far closer to Popkin Sensei's and getting softer all the time.

What all of these nikkyos have in common is that compliance is not optional. With Popkin Sensei's you are not sure why you are on the ground and are asking yourself why you didn't just let go. With Chiba's you know exactly why you are down there and are endeavoring to see if you can squish under the tatami to get away from the pain. Most of what passes for nikkyo at many dojos isn't either of these. No one ever experiences how dangerous the technique can be and they never develop the proper degree of respect for it and don't have any idea how to protect themselves against someone whose nikkyo is on the Chiba Sensei side of the spectrum. These people go to train at big seminars and camps and they get hurt.

Tom Read Sensei's nikkyo was what I call a "pulse nikkyo". He'd draw you out to accelerate you, then he'd tighten his hip spiral back in the other direction and let you run into it. It was scarier than Chiba Sensei's. I always felt right on the edge of being injured yet I never actually was. It definitely hurt though... you were never even tempted to see if you could hang in there. Rather you were only worried that you hadn't bailed soon enough to keep the full power from hitting you. Scared the piss out of me.

I think that, just as with little children, they have to learn just how dangerous certain things can be, sometimes by trial and error, adults doing Aikido shouldn't be protected too much. It doesn't really benefit them and it doesn't benefit the art.

Of course, if you have a dojo in which the average age is in the lower forties, as is very common these days, then it changes what you can do. At a certain point you simply have to start toning things down because your students are post peak physically. The same is true when you make the training accessible for people who are damaged emotionally. It is possible that when you make the training so safe, on either a physical or emotional level, you end up with a dojo at which it is impossible to become excellent at the art.

I have friends who have chosen to make their dojos VERY accessible in terms of being really safe feeling for pretty much anyone. There are clearly a number of former abuse victims, a large number of people over 40 who didn't even start martial arts until they were already past their peaks physically. In order to make their practice safe physically and emotionally for these folks they have had to tone down the training. The result has been that they frequently lose students who are younger and really want to train hard. These are not compatible paradigms...

At my own dojo I am someplace in between. My students do not train anywhere near as hard as I trained back in the day. But given the state of my body after all that enthusiastic but ultimately rather dumb training, I am fine with that. But it is still true that most of the folks training at my friend's dojos wouldn't not be training with me, even if I were the only dojo in the area. They simply wouldn't be doing martial arts at all...

So, I think we need to take care of our people but we also need to be clear about what we are doing when we do so. It's not wrong either way. But when we strive to make things so safe that anyone can train, we lose the edge that produces excellence. In fact we create an environment in which the person that could be excellent is not allowed to really grow. On the other hand we make the practice accessible to a number of people who might find it quite rewarding and empowering, even though they won't be terribly good at it. It's just a matter of choices. I do not think that one can do both at the same dojo. At least I have not seen it done.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:38 PM   #91
Shadowfax
 
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post

Of course, if you have a dojo in which the average age is in the lower forties, as is very common these days, then it changes what you can do. At a certain point you simply have to start toning things down because your students are post peak physically. The same is true when you make the training accessible for people who are damaged emotionally. It is possible that when you make the training so safe, on either a physical or emotional level, you end up with a dojo at which it is impossible to become excellent at the art..
Speaking as someone who is a) in her early 40's b) has a significant amount of emotional scaring c) has a history of abuse and d) has some physical limitations....

I fully expect to experience pain as a part of my training. Just a week ago my uke told me I was getting hit while executing a technique. He wasn't actually hitting me but trying to let me know my movements were off and leaving me open. I told him "well then hit me". Sheesh how am I supposed to know the opening is there if you don't hit me? So he did and I learned to get out of the way....

sometimes I do test a pin to the point of pain. Because I want to experience it. I want to feel what that feels like in a place where I know I am not so likely to get injured. The knowledge of my body's limits may come in very handy some day.

I guess I can understand some people not being able to handle hard training ( I happen to really enjoy it) but I mean if you don't want to learn how to deal with getting hit.... why take up a martial art?

I really have to agree with this.

Quote:
I think that, just as with little children, they have to learn just how dangerous certain things can be, sometimes by trial and error, adults doing Aikido shouldn't be protected too much. It doesn't really benefit them and it doesn't benefit the art.
If my teachers had protected me so carefully from experiencing any pain ,and even fear, how would I have learned how to deal with it and be able to function in spite of it? I really think that experiencing these things in a controlled environment and at the hands of people you trust, who can help you to work through it, goes a long ways toward helping someone like me to heal.
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:44 PM   #92
graham christian
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Graham wrote: "Keith, you tell a story of what you did and there was no pain except a rejection by the recipient."

Umm, are we reading the same thread?

Of course you can often have effective joint locks that aren't painful, I'm sure we've all felt them, but that's not what's being discussed here, is it? We were AFAIK discussing the degree to which teachers SHOULD protect students from themselves, not what was humanly possible. IMO it's not even all that relevant to the discussion, but maybe that's just how it seems to me?
Basia. Re: No pain I was refering to #70.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:57 PM   #93
Janet Rosen
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Re: uke getting hurt

Learning how, as uke, to mitigate/challenge a stable applied nikkyo by my own response to it, and learning to breathe into a nikkyo or sankyo was one of aikido's most valuable "off the mat" lessons for me, teaching me to relax when injured or in some other kind of pain.

I understand what you are saying, George, about the different expectations of training between younger and older students - it's part of why I'm offering a special beginners class for those w/ mobility or age concerns - but I do think there is a difference between "hard training" as in fast repetitions, big throws, etc, and a slower form of "martial training" that is slower and makes fewer demands on the compromised body but should still be accurate, on target and test the limits of the individual.
To me there is no excuse for an off-target attack once a beginner has had a class to work through fear of hitting/being hit.

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Old 02-25-2011, 04:17 PM   #94
graham christian
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
What post? Are you sure you are reading it as intended (this time)? Why assume? Why not ask?

I agree there are opportunities to learn from this thread; do you include yourself as those who might learn something of value?
Charles. Am I assuming? I came in after Mary had had enough and was bowing out, Janet said it had once again deteriorated and turned to point scoring, and Keith had 'deleted'.

It needed a new impetus or direction as far as I could see.

Learning? Of course. I entered with center, led you around in a circle, returned with iriminage. You lost center and started talking about the ocean.(heh, heh) What do you think?

George came in with a good well balanced response. It's all good.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-25-2011, 06:47 PM   #95
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
It needed a new impetus or direction as far as I could see.

Learning? Of course. I entered with center, led you around in a circle, returned with iriminage. You lost center and started talking about the ocean.(heh, heh) What do you think?
I think, with your apparently never-ending need to inject veiled and not-so-veiled insults and one-ups, that you come across as passive-aggressive and arrogant.
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Old 02-25-2011, 06:58 PM   #96
graham christian
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I think, with your apparently never-ending need to inject veiled and not-so-veiled insults and one-ups, that you come across as passive-aggressive and arrogant.
Thank you.

xxx.G.
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Old 02-26-2011, 02:45 AM   #97
C. David Henderson
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Re: uke getting hurt

Really Graham,

I don't believe I lost my center. I believe I've behaved as a gentleman throughout my participation on this thread. For example, I am happy to address you in the manner you would request of me.

As to being led in circles, it is, I admit, a hazard that often seems to attend trying to make sense of what you say.

But, as I said, carry on.

The person I truly admire at the moment is Cherie Thank you for being real and genuine. I truly appreciated your post. In my view, you touched upon the essential reason why practice may serve as misogi. Thank you for your sincerity.

And Mary, again, thank you for the lovely post of that picture of the ocean.

David

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