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Old 02-25-2011, 09:24 AM   #26
bob_stra
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
bob, stop bother me with these stuffs unless you have my basic requirements: food, drink and loose women. the first two are mandatory; the last, optional.
Bender:

Oh, no room for Bender, huh? Fine! I'll go build my own lunar lander! With blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the lunar lander and the blackjack!

Sorry to interrupt. Carry on.
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Old 02-25-2011, 09:56 AM   #27
JW
 
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Hi Jason-
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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
..., most everything is upper body muscle. ...
2. work on developing a relaxed, connected body. Right now I see you using lots of muscle
Although you are preaching to the choir about there being a different way, I was hoping my level of development would be self-evident in the video. Maybe it is and that is what you are correctly telling me, or maybe you are not seeing what I am. Hard to say about that. Although I certainly can know how far I have come in the last 2 years, I don't know how far I have to go, and it sounds like you believe I have a ways to go.
BTW, what I was working on just before I made this video was connection in the compressive and tensile directions. No leverage. I could move the uke to and fro easily. But it wasn't kuzushi. I studied that Ikeda clip, and saw him do this buckling action-- that came straight from there. I think that is the aspect you are talking about as "leverage." It is a trick I saw him employ that I was not doing, so I copied that and made the vid.
It is an interesting comment to hear that being one of the main parts called NOT Ikeda-like. It could be because I am doing it wrong. Thanks!

Bob-
You watch too much TV. Keep it up!
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Old 02-25-2011, 10:02 AM   #28
JW
 
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Ride the chaos.

Hi Tenyu-
I've never heard anyone who claims to do an "internal art" say that collusion and a certain type of postural habit is REQUIRED for aikido (or Ikeda's aikido) to operate. It seems to be an even stronger statement than Michael Varin saying that the collusion was making it a bit easier for Ikeda. At any rate, Ledyard Sensei's more substantial experience with Ikeda Sensei seems to speak to a reduced dependence on collusion, not augmented, relative to what one might expect from looking.
Anyway, you called my partner non-collusive, in that he wasn't standing right, connecting his arm to center right, etc:
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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Since your video uke is untrained his center is disconnected from his own arm... All of uke needs to be alive, give very clear power applications, and move integrally to his center in order for nage to achieve any of the easy looking techniques Ikeda does.
So, why was it so easy for me to take his balance, even in the high resistance portion of the video? If I am not depending on certain kinds of attacks, yet I am successfully doing 1/100th of what Ikeda is doing.. then I remain unconvinced about the "value" of collusion in acheiving kuzushi on contact.

The idea of someone being immune to Ikeda's technique because he has certain martial stylistic traits sounds wrong to me. Like defeating a no-touch throw by alternately lifting your big toes.

Re:timing
Although I agree with you about proper timing in terms of carrying out an interaction properly, I am in this video only establishing that interaction, not cultivating it into throws beyond that initial, establishing moment of aiki.

Re:chaos
It took me a moment, but I think I see where you're going with that last line. I don't think aikido avoids chaos, I think in aikido we ride the chaos. I'm supposing this is in fact part of the let-go-and-let-the-kami's-will-direct-things Way. (I think that's a direct O-sensei quote, I just can't remember which English translation that was..) The process that brings an attacker down in aiki a chaotic process of collapse. Nage supplies the constraints and chaos determines the exact outcome within nage's constraints. Thus for O-sensei there were no techniques, things just happened, and thus he "received" techniques from the kamisama (from the chaos). Those became our techniques, because in O-sensei's opinion, our repeating of those movements was an honor to the kami who created those techniques spontaneously, through his body and mind. Thus doing techniques was a form of worship, more than a practice to teach you to become able to force those techniques to happen whenever you wanted, as predeterminations of outcome in martial encounters. That's my current thinking anyway, could be BS.
At some point if I say god is chaos and you say everything is predetermined by gods... well things get so far out there that disagreement could dissolve.
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Old 02-25-2011, 10:23 AM   #29
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chaos pretzel

Hi Bob, I forgot to reply to the clips you posted. Those both address non-buckling kuzushi. I have played with that a little and it is interesting. (By non-buckling kuzushi I mean the uke is no longer stable where he is currently standing, but he is not twisted into a pretzel of chaos.) That kind of work is also a study in entry or irimi I think, which is necessary (more important than buckling) but not immediately fruitful for me!

I know that has to become useful, so it is worth working on. But here's my problem from the few weeks before I did this buckling video. If a smart uke is not stable in a certain spot, he can just move his feet (step, shuffle, etc) and get a lot of stability back. So I end up chasing him around. I want to bring down to the ground or throw--both involve more of a collapse than a tipping-action.. hence my obsession with buckling. Plus, the buckling actually makes it difficult for him to move, because his feet are squashed down to the ground. So he feels unstable where he is standing, but it is not trivial to move to a new spot and renew the attack. Any thoughts?
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Old 02-25-2011, 10:47 AM   #30
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

jonathan, after long and deep contemplation, actually, only a few seconds between the time i poured the coffee into my cream and sugar. i'll toss a few things out for laugh.

1. it looked as though your power was trap between uke's wrist and elbow. it needs to reach through uke. when Ikeda sensei doing the stuffs, uke felt as though he reached inside uke, grabbed the spine, and move it around. the outward appearances of the techniques are the results, not the cause. thus, the meaning of internal.

2. view your arms and uke's arm as one arm, your arm. the connection is your elbow and uke's shoulder is your hand. so try this, reach out with your hand and grab uke's shoulder, then try to move him around with your body, i.e. lock your arm in place.

years ago i went to a seminar taught by Hooker sensei. he discussed the different between learning and training. i'll paraphrase. learning is when two person helping each other to accomplish a task to gain maximum knowledge. training is taking off the gloves and test what you have learned; there will bruises and blood letting.

so the question i would ask you is, are you learning or are you training? they have two different mental attitudes. what Ikeda sensei shown was learning mode.

systema learning methodology that you might want to consider. at the beginning stage, you use the least amount of force and doing everything at snail pace. this is to NOT imprint tension in your body. so repeat after me, "tension is the mind killer. i must not tense. i will let it pass through me." after a time, then increase the power and/or speed, very slowly. also, your uke should provide the power, either push or pull. just stand there and grab provide no power for you to manipulate; thus, you have to supply your own power into the equation. thus, you were doing things to uke.

so the power equation should be

uke's power + your power = 100%

that means if uke's provide 70% of power, then you provide 30%. "four ounces pushes a thousand pounds", right?

now, back to my requirements discussion with Marc. the last two is ura whereas the first two, omote.
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:00 AM   #31
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Hi Phi, I agree with what you are saying about connection going deeper. That's irimi, right? What I am working on here is a little tool for good results that does not depend on complete irimi. Maybe that's not aikido. But I felt that Ikeda was using this trick, see :16, :19 and :40 in the Ikeda vid. I consider this trick to be a type of atemi.
It could be that I am right that Ikeda is using this 'atemi' in his vid, but always in combination with good, complete irimi. Thus you see him doing something different than me, while I see him doing what I am doing PLUS a lot more.

Also, training vs learning-- of course this is learning too. But it is "testing" which is a part of learning. If you are satisfied with the types of tests you do in learning, then that means you think the learning is working, so you can go on to what you called "training." Not there yet (I didn't tell my friend to punch me in the face if he could).
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:28 AM   #32
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

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Hi Phi, I agree with what you are saying about connection going deeper. That's irimi, right? What I am working on here is a little tool for good results that does not depend on complete irimi. Maybe that's not aikido. But I felt that Ikeda was using this trick, see :16, :19 and :40 in the Ikeda vid. I consider this trick to be a type of atemi.
It could be that I am right that Ikeda is using this 'atemi' in his vid, but always in combination with good, complete irimi. Thus you see him doing something different than me, while I see him doing what I am doing PLUS a lot more.
i have not been your uke so i can't honestly say what you are doing is what he does. i have been Ikeda sensei's uke quite a few times. actually, i was his chauffeur for a few seminars (he almost disowned me, because i mentioned i used instant coffee instead of the good stuffs ) everything he does is irimi. he's irimi while turning. he's irimi while moving backward. he's irimi while drinking his coffee! he's irimi while selling bujin stuffs, even with all my resistance, i ended up walking away with arm-loaded stuffs and bank account much lighter (now i understand his phrase "make uke light")
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:32 AM   #33
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

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Hi Jason-

Although you are preaching to the choir about there being a different way, I was hoping my level of development would be self-evident in the video. Maybe it is and that is what you are correctly telling me, or maybe you are not seeing what I am. Hard to say about that. Although I certainly can know how far I have come in the last 2 years, I don't know how far I have to go, and it sounds like you believe I have a ways to go.
BTW, what I was working on just before I made this video was connection in the compressive and tensile directions. No leverage. I could move the uke to and fro easily. But it wasn't kuzushi. I studied that Ikeda clip, and saw him do this buckling action-- that came straight from there. I think that is the aspect you are talking about as "leverage." It is a trick I saw him employ that I was not doing, so I copied that and made the vid.
It is an interesting comment to hear that being one of the main parts called NOT Ikeda-like. It could be because I am doing it wrong. Thanks!!
Don't take what I said as an insult, I think that what you're doing and your interest level is great. You asked for opinions and gave one that I thought would help. You're in good shape, I can see your biceps and shoulders pop up through your shirt when they kick in. Your ideas about connecting to uke are good, but you're doing it through a more muscularly supported connection (in yourself) than you want to have. You're connecting to uke and pushing him away with muscle/leverage rather than letting him connect to the ground through you and then moving him away from you with your whole body. Someone with softer skills could neutralize what you're doing and connect back to your center through the tension those muscles create in you.

That's why I recommend meeting with someone who has experience in that and can show you things you can do to condition your body so that those muscles don't need to kick in unless you want them to do so. Do not feel bad, you are not the first aikido person who thinks they're relaxed and aren't. I think it's safe to say that every aikido person who starts working on these things thinks that and quickly learns that we weren't anywhere near as relaxed as we thought we were.
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:48 AM   #34
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

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Do not feel bad, you are not the first aikido person who thinks they're relaxed and aren't. I think it's safe to say that every aikido person who starts working on these things thinks that and quickly learns that we weren't anywhere near as relaxed as we thought we were.
I totally agree with that, it's just that what you are describing sounds like a process I already have been going through (changing from muscle to transmission and manipulation of extrinsic forces like grf and weight). MAN I was stiff 2 years ago! (have been all my life)

But yeah I saw the same thing you did about the biceps firing. I'll keep watching that video but I still have not convinced myself that the power I am primarily using comes from those muscles. (They may be firing here and there, yet still be inconsequential to my main forces and movement-- there is a lot of noise in my motor system, I need to do more misogi ;])

Do you have a video showing your relaxed body causing fast or instant kuzushi?
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Old 02-25-2011, 12:33 PM   #35
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

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I totally agree with that, it's just that what you are describing sounds like a process I already have been going through (changing from muscle to transmission and manipulation of extrinsic forces like grf and weight). MAN I was stiff 2 years ago! (have been all my life)

But yeah I saw the same thing you did about the biceps firing. I'll keep watching that video but I still have not convinced myself that the power I am primarily using comes from those muscles. (They may be firing here and there, yet still be inconsequential to my main forces and movement-- there is a lot of noise in my motor system, I need to do more misogi ;])
so you're seeing the same thing i'm seeing. If Ikeda were to do those things in a tshirt, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't see any of that. The same goes for the other skilled guys I mentioned. The thing is, you don't fix that by continuing to do them with muscle, thinking that it's going to get softer. It doesn't work that way, IMO. There are joint connections that have to be strengthened to be able to hold you together against forces so that those muscles don't kick in. The only way those things get conditioned is by NOT using the muscles. You start soft with very little force, just short of that point where the muscles kick in. It's pretty boring at first, I will not lie, but it really doesn't take a lot of time to get to a point that your body can start supporting you this way from standard directions and then you can start working these things in more active ways that aren't directionally specific. You really should find some people in your area to work with, there are quite a few in Ca these days.

I can probably get something for you early next week. It may not be instant though, I have to look for it , but i'm still a noob so that's ok. It's the connection that I have to find , depending on how hard the person wants to grab, but once I have it, the kuzushi part is fairly easy and doesn't require outward movement from me. Keep in mind that i'm talking about light force here. If someone were to grab me and push through me hard, I'd still have tons of muscles kick in and it would all go to crap. That just shows that being able to do a neat trick isn't the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It's more like the most basic of things. Thinking about these things, figuring them out for yourself helps, but putting in the work is the only thing that gets results.
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:05 PM   #36
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

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That just shows that being able to do a neat trick isn't the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Agreed, certainly. I am showing a neat trick (or trying to) that is along the way towards much greater things. My "trick" seems to work with high loads from uke (shown in the resistance sections). But beyond showing that here, I don't try to work with large loads to learn.

Regarding the muscle usage: I agree about working from weak to strong. And I agree that I have extraneous muscle usage in the video, and we can both see that. What I am thinking though is that I also have 'something else,' which I have dutifully worked on in a relaxed way, without partners. That something else is what I hoped might be evident in the video. I think the something else is not correlated with those muscle firings-- in other words different things are mixed in together, crap + good things. The presence of the crap doesn't necessarily negate the presence of good things that happen at different times and different places from the crap.. but I could be wrong.
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Old 02-25-2011, 02:46 PM   #37
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Jonathan,
Thanks for the video! If more people had the courage to put up some video we'd get farther!!

From what I understand of the IP community, you can't see IP on video, so I don't know how anyone can criticize what you are doing, for all they know your IP could be on blast, how could they see it...

Funny to me how every time seeing something comes up, and I or someone else asks "show me", the answer is well IHTBF (it has to be felt). Yet when someone posts something of their own free will, all the critics show up to say how they can tell you're not doing it right...

As far as Ikeda, and instant kazushi goes, we know for a fact the he can do it quite well with uke. He does it great! I'm impressed. However we don't know anything about his ability to do it with a stranger who intends him harm, or at least embarrassment. When we go into an Aikido dojo, we plan to play by the rules, that's just what we do, and that's the way it's suppose to be. Outside of this, we are all just speculators, even those of us who know the practice well.

As for your video, do you do this stuff like Ikeda, no way. But he's been doing it for a LONG time, so you're probably on the right track, if that's what you're interested in, keep doing it, and you'll probably look just like him in 20-30 years. If your interested in martial use of this skill, you need to start practicing with your partner in a sparring session. Your fundamentals are there, so why not start sparring? If you're not interested in this, I think you're on the right path.

Again thanks for the video, and your eagerness to discuss what you put up. I think you did a find job.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 02-25-2011 at 02:49 PM.

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Old 02-25-2011, 03:00 PM   #38
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

hi Chris, I disagree, there are videos that show neijin, or internal strength, or internal power, or kokyu rokyu . You just dont see it, and think its either fake, or the same. It does not feel the same. Period. However hokey it looks.

And Jonathan, you are not showing it clearly on the video, because arms moving in isolation is a huge tell tale.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:32 PM   #39
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I can probably get something for you early next week. It may not be instant though, I have to look for it , but i'm still a noob so that's ok. It's the connection that I have to find , depending on how hard the person wants to grab, but once I have it, the kuzushi part is fairly easy and doesn't require outward movement from me.
Then you're probably going to beat me to it. I had the intention to post basically the same thing.

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Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
In this thread there are potentially examples of both types, but no one is explicitly giving the critiques of "yay" or "nay."
Well, I'd say "nay", but it feels cheap to say that without explaining why, which won't work without a video, for which I don't have a partner, so...

Here's what I think one should be able to do if you want to replicate what Ikeda is doing: have someone push on your chest and without overt movement unbalance the person pushing you. One of the major telltales is that the pusher feels no difference in pressure or force at the point of contact. The reason for this is that you're not pushing at the point of contact, you're pushing at the pusher's center. Hence the need for connecting with it.
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:53 PM   #40
JW
 
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Hi Chris, I can see what you mean about the video critiques. I think they are being a bit more rational than the way you painted it though. I think these 2 things should be visible in any video:
1. Things that are wrong for sure.
2. Things that could be right.
So you can see, it is not definitive, except in the negative direction! I honestly think this is what is happening with video critiques. So I don't think people are being quite as unfair as you say, but yeah, it is not possible for things to be clear-cut.

This party I am completely unsure of:
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
you need to start practicing with your partner in a sparring session. Your fundamentals are there,
That's what I am worried about: I may in fact be several years from the fundamentals being there! I will not really spar until the fundamentals are there. Anyway I will keep working, and the more success I have the more I will be encouraged to spar. I have sparse success, so I don't want to spar yet. My reasoning: I am not trying to develop "whatever works in sparring practice." I am trying to develop "one particular method, which would work in sparring practice once developed." So you can see that sparring to early would take me down the former road, whereas waiting till a certain threshold of skill level (and body development level) would take me down the latter.

Alfonso:
I see what you mean. Funny thing, when I work by myself, the arms NEVER move on their own. But here I put an uke on the end of my arm, and he started dragging my arm around! I don't resist. Maybe I am just not ready or not good at partner practice. It is one possibility. I'll look at the video again, though if you have any specific times I should look at, that could help. Or show me with your own video, even better.
I agree I should not be having arm motion in general. Even if the uke is generating the motive force, that should be handled by me, thus he doesn't get to move my arm around freely.
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Old 02-25-2011, 05:26 PM   #41
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Jonathan, George Ledyard Sensei has some very good videos that start to give you good guidance on this. My favorite is his 2006 Seminar on "Entries". Since I bought that DVD i have been to several Ikeda Sensei seminars and my understanding of what he is doing really grew, I highly recommend this video or any of the others George has put out. An no, I am not being paid for this

Thanks
Bruce
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Old 02-25-2011, 05:30 PM   #42
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Re: Ride the chaos.

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Hi Tenyu-
I've never heard anyone who claims to do an "internal art" say that collusion and a certain type of postural habit is REQUIRED for aikido (or Ikeda's aikido) to operate. It seems to be an even stronger statement than Michael Varin saying that the collusion was making it a bit easier for Ikeda. At any rate, Ledyard Sensei's more substantial experience with Ikeda Sensei seems to speak to a reduced dependence on collusion, not augmented, relative to what one might expect from looking.
Anyway, you called my partner non-collusive, in that he wasn't standing right, connecting his arm to center right, etc:
Jonathan,

Ikeda gave a seminar at Northcoast Aikido once. At one point he formed a line and threw everyone using this instant ‘kuzushi katatedori'. Everyone walked up, grabbed his wrist and dropped to the ground like they're supposed to. When it was my turn I decided I wouldn't throw myself like everyone else, but not be stubborn about it to see what Ikeda would do. As I went in slowly to grab his wrist he understood my degree of collusion/non-collusion and had no choice but to abandon the technique. About six inches before I had his wrist he slapped my hand, and while I immediately pondered the awkwardness of the technique I admit I was slightly off-balance staring at our hands in disbelief. Right then he went in and pulled me down with my wrist, on a purely technical level I could have easily recovered and successfully resisted the throw but that would have been dishonest. My intent was thrown off-balance, that's all that mattered. Even if he didn't physically throw me down after, I would have bowed to him and walked off.

Quote:
So, why was it so easy for me to take his balance, even in the high resistance portion of the video? If I am not depending on certain kinds of attacks, yet I am successfully doing 1/100th of what Ikeda is doing.. then I remain unconvinced about the "value" of collusion in acheiving kuzushi on contact.
Look at Ikeda, he never loses his balance. There is nothing to be gained from throwing someone else off-balance if you yourself go off-balance in the process. I'm going to be blunt here because I don't think you realize just how off-balance you are in that video. You could have easily been knocked over countless times from many directions. An unstable subjective ground is a grave fundamental flaw that affects one both physically and psychologically. No one with at least three months of Aikido training should be losing their balance like that especially in a simple katatedori technique. The staff would literally throw you on the ground if you attempted a multi-level resonator with such shaky ground. Once you fix your ground then you won't have to compensate for improper grounding anymore. Nage-centric grounding must occur first in order to become nage, anything different including uke-centric grounding by default makes one an uke.
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Old 02-25-2011, 05:50 PM   #43
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

I actually have a really stupid question. Why do you want to be able to do this? You said you'd spar once you get the fundamentals right, but even O Sensei went from strong to soft. He polished what he knew and made it "softer", but he had an extensive budo background to start with. I don't think we should go balls out at each other during every class, but as Aikidokas we owe it to ourselves getting smacked in the face from time to time as a reality check.

I'm completely ignorant about all this IP stuff, but, to an outsider like me, it may sometimes seem that corners are being cut. I'm sure that there's something to it and I'll be delighted to read (and hopefully watch) some of your findings, but seeing what Ikeda does, I can't help but feel that this is something that is way beyond my understanding and experience.

Having said all this, I still would like to congratulate you for posting the video and starting this discussion.

regards,
Daniel
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Old 02-25-2011, 06:37 PM   #44
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

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Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
I have sparse success, so I don't want to spar yet. My reasoning: I am not trying to develop "whatever works in sparring practice." I am trying to develop "one particular method, which would work in sparring practice once developed."
I think I get what you're saying, however I would add one bit of advice.

The practice (sparing, or whatever the practice you're working on) will tell you what works and doesn't. It could very well be that you're idea of what "should" happen is flawed. If you work on the theory for many years, and then find, once you start the practice (sparring or what have you) that your theory was wrong, it's all down the tubes.

However, if you allow the practice to inform you as you work your theory this is much less likely to happen.

Anyways, have fun, thanks for the honesty.

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Old 02-25-2011, 09:04 PM   #45
Tenyu
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Jonathan,
Thanks for the video! If more people had the courage to put up some video we'd get farther!!

From what I understand of the IP community, you can't see IP on video, so I don't know how anyone can criticize what you are doing, for all they know your IP could be on blast, how could they see it...

Funny to me how every time seeing something comes up, and I or someone else asks "show me", the answer is well IHTBF (it has to be felt). Yet when someone posts something of their own free will, all the critics show up to say how they can tell you're not doing it right...

As far as Ikeda, and instant kazushi goes, we know for a fact the he can do it quite well with uke. He does it great! I'm impressed. However we don't know anything about his ability to do it with a stranger who intends him harm, or at least embarrassment. When we go into an Aikido dojo, we plan to play by the rules, that's just what we do, and that's the way it's suppose to be. Outside of this, we are all just speculators, even those of us who know the practice well.

As for your video, do you do this stuff like Ikeda, no way. But he's been doing it for a LONG time, so you're probably on the right track, if that's what you're interested in, keep doing it, and you'll probably look just like him in 20-30 years. If your interested in martial use of this skill, you need to start practicing with your partner in a sparring session. Your fundamentals are there, so why not start sparring? If you're not interested in this, I think you're on the right path.

Again thanks for the video, and your eagerness to discuss what you put up. I think you did a find job.
Hi Chris,

I can see both IP, IP/Aikido, and the quality thereof in video. I don't believe the IHTBF line is true at all. Ikeda said during the seminar what he was doing was easy, and I agree with him. It doesn't take much training to do well what he's demonstrating with trained cooperative ukes. Unlike your uncertainty, I can also see Ikeda's Aikido is excellent and there's no question in my mind of his martial efficacy outside of an Aikido environment. At another seminar I went to several years ago Saotome showed a version of this kazushi which shared the implicit lines of a super condensed tai-no-henko. I picked it up immediately, and I had less than eight months of Aikido training at the time. If people put the effort in demystifying Aikido then this idea that it takes 30 years to learn the basics will disappear as it should. O Sensei said he was just beginning to explore Aikido and people thought he was being modest!

Sparring, fighting, and resistance does not exist in Aikido!

-Tenyu
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Old 02-25-2011, 10:00 PM   #46
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post

Sparring, fighting, and resistance does not exist in Aikido!

-Tenyu
Speak for yourself.

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Old 02-25-2011, 11:42 PM   #47
Richard Stevens
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Am I wrong in thinking it is probably more productive to focus on perfecting the basics of the art before trying to break down advanced concepts demonstrated by a Shihan who has been training longer than many of us have been alive? Maybe I'm just being negative.
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:26 AM   #48
grondahl
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

What do you consider being the basics? The outer form of waza?

Kudos to Jonathan for the video and being able to start some fruitful discussion on the board.

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Richard Stevens wrote: View Post
Am I wrong in thinking it is probably more productive to focus on perfecting the basics of the art before trying to break down advanced concepts demonstrated by a Shihan who has been training longer than many of us have been alive? Maybe I'm just being negative.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:35 AM   #49
JO
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
What do you consider being the basics? The outer form of waza?

Kudos to Jonathan for the video and being able to start some fruitful discussion on the board.
On the one hand I think the outer form is important. But not just the 1, 2, 3 of the waza. I think an early emphasis on solid, stable posture, and maintaining that stability through the waza is very important.

Has it occurred to anyone else out there that the two most common techniques in all aikido dojos I've seen, especially in basics classes, are tai no henko (often to start) and kokyu-ho (often to end). It seems to me the stuff Jonathan is working on are particularly relevant to these two fundamental basic aikido exercises.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 02-26-2011, 02:07 PM   #50
JW
 
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Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Thanks all for the input, this is great. Some replies here for Tenyu, Daniel, Bruce, and Chris. (and the "basics" discussion from Peter, Richard, and Jonathan)

Tenyu- Thanks, I will work on my balance. This was the first time I tried this, and in reviewing the vid I think I see what you mean. I appreciate the Ikeda story too, please tell me about when that was (like a couple years ago vs a long time ago). It may suprise you to learn that I have no trouble with multi-level resonators. ;] then again maybe we are talking about different things!

Quote:
Daniel Itaboraí wrote: View Post
Why do you want to be able to do this? You said you'd spar once you get the fundamentals right, but even O Sensei went from strong to soft.
First of all I should say that by doing this kind of training, I believe you can learn to start to take balance before contact (as others have talked about here). So I don't think you need an explanation of why that is valuable. But if I (and you) cannot at this time do that, what can we do? Someone grabs your wrist-- be it in a dojo, self-defense situation, or just you and your friend playing around with a camera. He has the advantage and some dominance. How long until you take his balance? Is it several seconds away? (a lot can happen in seconds) How much do you need to take his balance-- how much time, how much additional points of contact, how much moving off the line, how much punching in the mouth to distract him (he may be faster at punching than you!) do you need? My point in this exercise was to reduce what I need to get kuzushi-- reduce time, reduce everything so that I can see exactly what I can acheive just from the grab. I think it's pretty important. I will think at all times that uke is stronger and faster than me. If I overcome him it must never be because he pretended to be weak or slow. It must be because I am following the Way, wherein the weak are not overcome by the strong.
Also-- what you said about O-sensei and strong to soft. I didn't used to know anything about Daito-ryu. But now I know a tiny bit. I think he went from soft to softer. I think he was strong in his 40s and 50s, but not from being muscularly stiff. Different type of "strength." I really think I am not cutting any corners or skipping to the end. Look at my partner in the vid, he is wishing he wasn't grabbing my wrist! So there is a kind of strength (some here have said I am being too muscley)

Bruce- thanks for the tip, I am choosing which one to start with now. Aiki and Connection vs vol3 (power of the mind) vs the one you mentioned which is vo2 I believe.

Chris-- you ideas on putting theory into practice are right on, I think. I don't disagree with that idea, I am just working within my developmental stage. I think of it like this. If I am building a weapon, I test the component pieces for good functionality.. first, good metal for the blade, then make the blade, test it, then sharpen it, test the edge, plus don't forget about the handle, all these tests while the components are being formed, during construction, before there is even something there to wield. What you see here is testing a piece-- the high resistance condition was one of the tests. If I was failing tests like this, I would worry that I am falling into the sad state you described about untested theory. Getting there, I think.

I think based on my results in this thread, my next "piece" to test will not be pre-contact stuff. It will be trying to get complete entry (forget about uke's elbow, go all the way to his perception of balanced posture) and being able to put motion into his body, while keeping the 2 connections I mentioned balanced at the point of contact.. again, in a way that is immune to resistance. Center-to-center work. Combining that with what I've shown here will be great. Practicing that will be a good way to move into the realm of pre-contact work.

Quote:
Richard Stevens wrote: View Post
Am I wrong in thinking it is probably more productive to focus on perfecting the basics of the art before trying to break down advanced concepts demonstrated by a Shihan who has been training longer than many of us have been alive? Maybe I'm just being negative.
I agree with your sentiment, but like the other replies, I strongly believe what I am working on is the basics! Jonathan O pointed out tai-no-henko. I recognized that of course, when I was looking at the Ikeda video and seeing where the initial balance breaks seem to be at. I kept seeing a tainohenko-like shape. At any rate, I am quite sure that a version of what I showed (but with focus on complete entry/center-to-center connection rather than the elbow as I was doing, silly me) is what we are supposed to do in tainohenko. So every time I did tainohenko before, and my parter just went with it.. what good was that? I didn't compel him to move, that was collusion.

Thanks, all!
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