Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-24-2011, 01:14 AM   #1
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 505
Offline
Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Video seems to be a good way to start discussions here on:
-what we are doing
-how we are doing it
-what we want to be doing
-what we do NOT want to be doing

So I made a video of something I've been thinking about. It is a work in progress and has a ways to go, and I have learned a lot just from watching this vid.. so although I think in some ways it is pretty weak, I think the video still has enough to discuss.

This idea is based on a few things. Primarily, this Ikeda Shihan video resonates with something I am thinking about: kuzushi on contact. Several times (especially 0:37 and 0:40) he shows that the uke's grab actually triggers kuzushi in the uke. There is no getting off the line, no punch in the teeth, no tricky wrist locks. Just force through the body. I'm excited about this.

Some more background--the following discussion points on aikiweb are what got me thinking.
Dan said:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Completely neutralizing a wrist grab requires no physical shifting of body mass at all and they do all the work.
Chris said:
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hunter,
Athletes can do everything on your list as well or better than any internal person.
(in response to: "3) Can take your balance on contact without any overt movement as they are already under your center of mass. They then manipulate you wherever they want. If it is a strike you loose your balance on contact.")
Phi said:
... you know, I just can't remember what he said that kicked off this whole post. I searched his posts but I just got a bunch of jokes. Sorry Phi!
At the time these things were said, I was thinking about Ikeda and kuzushi-on-contact.

So I thought these might be good for discussion:

1. in my video, do you think I am heading in the direction of what Ikeda does several times in that video?

2. Do you have a different take than I do, regarding getting kuzushi upon being grabbed? And is that different way more, or less like Ikeda than what I am doing?
(supply video for enhanced quality of discussion)

3. Any other thoughts on the content of my video?

My vid. Password is copyikeda.
Thanks!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 01:57 AM   #2
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Post Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Jonathan,

I really appreciate your video, and respect you for sharing it. I'm certain you will get all kinds of responses from people chiming in with their advice or critiques, while they lack the courage to post a video. It is high time that we recognize and expect video to help our analysis, and subject those who refuse to post video to the highest scrutiny.

I have attended Ikeda's seminars before and taken ukemi from him. I think Ikeda is excellent, but I don't perceive anything extraordinary from him. I have never seen him work with non-compliant uke, and I have my doubts as to whether he could accomplish what is shown in the video with uke who are behaving differently.

As for the exercise you are showing, I like it, but I view it as extremely rudimentary.

What do you feel is the benefit of the exercise you have shown in your video? Do you feel that exercise has any carryover to a full intensity attack?

What specific skills are you trying to develop? And how do you think they will enhance your aikido?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 05:38 AM   #3
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,702
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
So I made a video of something I've been thinking about. It is a work in progress and has a ways to go, and I have learned a lot just from watching this vid.. so although I think in some ways it is pretty weak, I think the video still has enough to discuss.
jonathan, thanks for posting your video. couple of questions.

what was your focus, as in, where did you direct your power?
can you feel your partner's center of balance?
is your partner pushing or pull on you or just hold on tight?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 09:37 AM   #4
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 505
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Hi guys, thanks. Rudimentary is right, I am trying to break down and address the component pieces of what goes into things like the :37 and :39 moments in Ikeda's video.
I haven't felt Ikeda yet so Michael, your doubts are valuable to hear. Others here have also reported the opposite, ie what happens when he demonstrates his ability to turn it up a notch from what is done in his aikido seminars. So it is good to hear both stories.

My exercise is mostly what is noted in the description of the video. I want to (from the grab itself, not using additional things like moving to the side or striking, or doing slow things to the grab like turning it into a nikkyo in place) degrade uke's posture/balance from the contact given by the grab. I want to have something that can be used without a delay, so, working toward immediate effects.
I want all of my aikido techniques to work as maintenance and intensification of this initial kuzushi-- that's why this exercise is so important to me.

Notes on resistance: the "high resistance" portion is very strong. In terms of being able to affect a body that doesn't want to let you, this was GREAT practice. (This is what kihon is afaik) MY strategy is, first be able to do things when they are too strong to just let you, then learn to deal with them quickly changing up things, to maintain their advantage. Those are 2 different weapons that an attacker can use.
Notes on my strategy: I copied what I saw in the Ikeda vid. The things like "unity" and "change insides" are what I am trying to do, but what do you do with those things? Instead of just pushing or pulling uke with that methodology, here I am buckling him at the waist (through the elbow). That is what I am feeling, and trying. I think this is a point where my "ki development" is not far enough along to allow me a nice, easy control of center without this atemi-like buckling. We shall see, because I know what I want and I will keep trying.
Partner is (depending on resistance level noted) resisting all changes to position. Meaning, if he feels me move inward he will push, vice versa. Basically, he provides his own restoring force back toward good/undisturbed posture. He does this with great vigor during high resistance. What I do is never just pushing or just pulling-- both tensile and compressive forces (hopefully adaptive forces) are always being applied to him, to allow be to buckle him at the waist using his elbow.
Does that make sense?
Erick Mead- I know, it's shear. But then so is simple bending your elbow in and out using biceps and triceps, right?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 10:41 AM   #5
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 784
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Like Michael said, thank for posting your video, its brave to do such a thing.

First, understand what Ikeda sensei is doing is a very high level of refinement over basics. Don't beat yourself up too much if you cannot do what he does...
Second, Sensei often slows down or makes bigger the movements he is demonstrating so that you can actually see what he is doing. You have to understand for practice purposes we are not talking free style. I can tell you that he can deal with anyone; sometimes the movement looks fake.

Kuzushi is the physical balance breaking that accompanies ki no musubi (musubi); this is the "aiki" thing. Sensei creates a structure that undermines your balance before you touch him. By connecting to your center before contact he breaks your structure so by the time you grab him you are toast. To me, this is the "aiki" that Gleason sensei says is missing from aikido; we have no connection before we do technique.

Alot of sensei's techniques are about timing and structure. No fancy wrist twists, no flashing hand turns, no muscling, etc. What he does is about moving your center to affect your partner's center. You unify your partner's balance to your own, and then move your body while maintaing balance; your partner's balance will have to follow. This is "connecting" as I describe it. Most of the time I feel like I need to stabilize myself against sensei (i.e. my balance is very dependent upon him). This is why uke looks like a tool - our balance is undermined.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 11:04 AM   #6
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 505
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Hi Jon, thanks. I fully expect to not duplicate what he does right away. In fact I have been working a while on some things that should affect my performance, and I still only expect to be able to duplicate a specific component at this time.

At any rate I am trying to see if people think what I am doing is totally separate from what he does, vs being a step in the same direction.

I agree with all the words you said.. words are funny though, that's why I posted the vid. So, if I say I agree with your description of Ikeda's method, what do you think upon seeing my vid? Would you say no, I am not actually doing any subset of what he does, or would you say this is a genuine part of his kuzushi method. I am certainly trying to do "No fancy wrist twists, no flashing hand turns, no muscling, etc"

I actually think the part that you describe before contact MUST be learned by doing what I am doing in the video.. what I learn there, I should be able to start to apply before contact, as a next step.
Thanks!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 11:24 AM   #7
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
What he does is about moving your center to affect your partner's center. You unify your partner's balance to your own, and then move your body while maintaing balance; your partner's balance will have to follow. This is "connecting" as I describe it. Most of the time I feel like I need to stabilize myself against sensei (i.e. my balance is very dependent upon him). This is why uke looks like a tool - our balance is undermined. [bold added by me; jss]
I agree that "unifying your balance to your own" is the first thing to learn. How to disrupt that balance in your favour is step two.

Then how to do step one?
Let your partner push you with little force. Relax as much as possible and let your body manage the incoming force. Your body knows how to carry your own weight. Think of the push as a certain amount of weight added in one specific place on your body. Or think of it as a backpack: you don't push back against the backpack, you basically just wear it. So when being pushed, just allow your body to figure out how to 'wear' the push. Et voilà, you're not resisting the push, you've just added the push as another input to your body's balance management mechanisms.

p.s.: As soon as I find someone willing to be in it, I'll post a video.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 11:52 AM   #8
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,620
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

I am always amazed that two people looking at precisely the same thing, even feeling the same thing, can have totally opposite perceptions of what is going on.

I was at the Aiki Expo and saw Ushiro Sensei and went, "Oh my God, this guy is off the charts. I need to get more exposure to this while I can." Of course, Ikeda Sensei thought the same thing and repeatedly invited Ushiro Sensei to come and teach over here.

I had other friends, who saw what I saw... yet didn't actually see what I saw. Ask them about Ushiro and they'll say, "Yeah, I saw Ushiro.. he was good." And that's it... Nothing more.

I have trained with Ikeda Sensei for 35 years. He likes nothing better than to have someone decide not to "comply". Go ahead... make your best effort. He'll pick the biggest, strongest guy in the room, give him explicit instruction to try to stop him and he'll do exactly what he intended, no effort.

I have trained with a lot of people and continue to do so. Many of them were some of the Aikido greats, now passed. To say that what Ikeda Sensei is doing is nothing special, well, either you are training with someone truly superior that I don't know about or you haven't really played with Ikeda Sensei enough.

Of course, it all depends on what someone would call "compliant". Trying to hang in there past the point at which someone has kuzushi, attempting to reorganize to stop him, well, that's another thing. That starts to cross the line into fighting an then you get to see how the atemi waza function in the technique. But I can assure you , he can do what he is showing and it doesn't require ukes that cooperate.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 12:14 PM   #9
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 505
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Hi guys, Joep, you provide more examples that I agree with verbally. (When I told my partner to resist, my idea was that I could count on getting forces from him to "wear" -- only difference is that his force depends on what I do vs being a constant input)

Part of the point of this thread was that people who I agree with verbally could look at the vid and say, "you know, you say you agree with this but you are clearly not doing it, here's why. ..."

Another point of the thread was that people who might think kuzushi on contact, or early on, is a good thing, but that what I am doing (and/or what Ikeda is doing) is not the way to get it.

In this thread there are potentially examples of both types, but no one is explicitly giving the critiques of "yay" or "nay."
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 01:13 PM   #10
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,620
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Hi guys, Joep, you provide more examples that I agree with verbally. (When I told my partner to resist, my idea was that I could count on getting forces from him to "wear" -- only difference is that his force depends on what I do vs being a constant input)

Part of the point of this thread was that people who I agree with verbally could look at the vid and say, "you know, you say you agree with this but you are clearly not doing it, here's why. ..."

Another point of the thread was that people who might think kuzushi on contact, or early on, is a good thing, but that what I am doing (and/or what Ikeda is doing) is not the way to get it.

In this thread there are potentially examples of both types, but no one is explicitly giving the critiques of "yay" or "nay."
Kuzushi on contact is the goal of technical development in Aikido. "Katsu hayabi" or 'Instant victory" is the Japanese phrase that describes this on a physical, technical level. In the larger picture I want to have you before you even attack. But for that to be true I need to understand how to organize m,y structure properly to give direction to the energy of the attack.

If someone attacks me, he needs to have an outflow of energy to my center which would allow him to do something to me. That could be a strike, it could be a grab. But there needs to be some sort of outflow to me. So, Aikido (and this is what internal power skills are about) is about giving direction to the energy of that connection.

This is why it's always been axiomatic that one cannot attack another without creating an "opening" or` "suki". That's why the Founder said that there was "no attack in Aikido". It doesn't mean you can't initiate to draw the attacker's energy out at the time of your choosing rather than wait for him to choose the instant.

So, for what someone like Ikeda Sensei is doing, the stronger the attack, the better. All he requires is someone connecting to his center. After that, they are attacking the floor. All he is doing is giving that connection direction... up, down, in , out, right, left, any combination of these...that's what creates waza. Inside of the waza he is actually in a state of potential and complete freedom to move. Which means that he can punch, kick, adjust, anything at all he wishes, while creating that kuzushi.

This is the art of the power of "not doing". The less he does, the better it works because he isn't creating any blockages to the flow of the energy of the connection. The flow to do that is already happening when the attacker physically reaches him. He is already moving what needs to be moved. It's like running out in the parking lot and grabbing the handle of a car driving across the lot. You will be moving instantly because you grabbed something that was moving.

Static technique is about creating these connections in ones body and understanding how they function to create different direction when contact is made. When real waza is executed, it isn't a matter of firing some sequence in your body, a, then b, then c... It's all running already. They touch you and they are moving.

Combined with an understanding of the mental / energetic principles of "irimi" one can get to the point at which you have the attacker before anything commences on the physical level. You can allow him to realize this fact and perhaps think better of his ill founded intention to attack, or you can hide the fact and let him destroy himself by attacking. But you had him all along, regardless. That's what Ikeda Sensei is demonstrating.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 01:35 PM   #11
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 505
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Hi Ledyard Sensei, I agree completely. My idea is that the specific things that are happening to uke in my vid (which are kind of indirect effects of what my body is doing, rather than completely planned movements) are caused by force interactions that I need to become familiar with. I use the static interaction to do that. With that familiarity and "feel" of what it is like to connect, I want to be able to do more interesting things. As you said here:

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
But for that to be true I need to understand how to organize m,y structure properly to give direction to the energy of the attack.
...
Static technique is about creating these connections in ones body and understanding how they function to create different direction when contact is made.
So.. considering that I feel like your post is in fact stating my own views and training strategy-- do you think my video lines up (in a beginner-level way) with my words (ie, with your words)?
Thanks!
--JW
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 02:25 PM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,620
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
So.. considering that I feel like your post is in fact stating my own views and training strategy-- do you think my video lines up (in a beginner-level way) with my words (ie, with your words)?
Thanks!
--JW
You are certainly on the right track...

You need to move your arms less and let your body do more. To do that you need to "go deeper" with the touch to his center. Ikeda Sensei will say "touch their spine". Actually, I like to set up cross body connections. So if he grabs with his right hand, I'll go in and connect to something on the left side of him, rather than simply just dead center.

Once you have that connection, the ideal is to experience NO CHANGE in pressure at the point of contact as you use your body to redirect the energy of that connection. If the pressure increases, in this case on his hand or arm, you are putting your attention on the point of contact and that's where your energy is going. Raso Hultgren Sensei would say that you need to put your energy "through" him rather than "at" him.

Look to maintain a perfect balance between what you are putting out to him and what you are bringing in to you. Usually, you bring his energy into your spine before you give it back to him. This would be tricky to explain rather than show, at least for me. You should feel someone do it. There's a balance of extension and draw between the fingers and the elbow along the forearm line. There's a balance between the elbow and the shoulder along the upper arm line. There's a balance of energy running up your spine and down out your tail bone. Lots of oppositional balances. More than I am currently aware of... I keep being exposed to more and more subtle lines of balance, cross body connections and tensions, etc. But you don't have to be super sophisticated to do the basic work.

Just remember, the arms do not create power. They can be used to connect with the partner's center, they help give direction to the energy of the connection, but they don't create power. At the beginning you can play with using a bit of hip movement to get horizontal movement and a bit of pelvic roll forward and back to get an up and down. Later there are ways to accomplish exectly the same thing internally and one won't see much movement outside at all. But it will work simply by letting you upper body sit on the pelvis and letting the pelvis sit on top of the hip joints and float there. Any movement back there will reflect instantly in the partner if one is already connected to that partner's center.

Basically, don't think too much about what you are doing since focusing on just yourself tends to put all your attention and energy on you and often you lose the outflow to the partner. Don't be afraid to look right at him and observe every movement he or she makes as you experiment with what you moved ion your side to produce that movement.

On the other hand, if no movement is occurring, you may be going out too much and running into their structure. In which case look at how you can correct your posture and re-balance all those forces we talked about. I hope this helps. It's easy to show in a hands on setting but not so easy to explain because s much is about "feel".

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 04:36 PM   #13
Tenyu
Dojo: Aikibodo
Location: Arcata CA
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 150
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Hi Jonathan,

Can you let us know what your training history in Aikido is?

Looking at the level you're at I don't think it's a good idea for you to practice Aikido with someone who isn't trained in Aikido. I recommend working with at least one uke who's proficient in taking ukemi if you want to begin learning how to incorporate and apply the principles of Aikido. There's a lot of chaos in your video on both sides which is very counterproductive. Once you become proficient in Aikido then you can get back to your mma friend no problem.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 05:16 PM   #14
danielajames
 
danielajames's Avatar
Dojo: Brisbane Aikido Republic
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 291
Australia
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

looks like a nice exploration of energitcs. You might also like to film 'the making contact' aspect i.e. start each attack before the hand to wrist contact. You can setup your structure each time afresh and ask uke to provide different energetic attacks as you work through possibilities and then watch over and over.

FWIW video self analysis is one of those rare gems that is so easy to do (yet rarely done in many MA circles) and allows looking at ones own self in the third person which can bring dramatic insights and little ah-ha moments

Lots of off the shelf video cameras now have a high speed mode (usually in black and white) for just a few seconds only sometimes, it can be very revealing

thanks for sharing - tough and courageous to put ones self out there

best,
dan

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 06:48 PM   #15
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 505
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Ledyard sensei, thank you very much! I know a lot more in my head than in my body. Looking at the vid was already kind of embarassing because I could see stuff wrong in addition to some glimpses of right. So yes, I know (in my head), and yes, I don't know yet (in my body)! But working on it. I'm already much better based on what I learned in this vid.

Tenyu- is it Soke or Kaiso? ;] He's not my training partner, just a video partner. But, I am really surprised to see you frown on the chaos-- exploring (requires experiencing) that was the whole point, and a common aikido uke would have smothered it with collusion. I was glad to see the forces move our bodies, without us drowning that out. And, as for my history, I have done mostly Iwama-influenced aikido since about 13 years ago. But this isn't that. This is new. I started a new direction 2 years ago. Anyway I am not a good student, so my training hours in 13 years only got me to 3rd kyu. So yeah, I am only BARELY your sempai! ;p

Daniel-
Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
You might also like to film 'the making contact' aspect i.e. start each attack before the hand to wrist contact.
Yup, exactly that is my next step. (In addition to cleaning up what I am already doing.) 100% agreed on the video usage comment, I am glad I did it. Thanks!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 07:25 PM   #16
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 292
Canada
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

I don't know why I'm adding anything after George's post since I haven't managed much along these skills myself. Much like you, I think, I'm someone out to make his aikido more subtle and relaxed yet also powerful.

There's one exercise I've found even more interesting in my search for establishing contact with uke's center. Instead of having him resist, have him actively try to break the contact. I've had Harvey Konigsberg show me this in two ways. The first is with uke touching the wrist with an open palm and simply standing still unless you connect and move his center. The second is with a stronger attack but with uke letting go and striking if he senses an opening. It's an interesting twist, and one that makes muscling the technique useless.

Jonathan Olson
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 07:46 PM   #17
itaborai83
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 17
Brazil
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

I liked Daniel James' idea to explore/film the 'the making contact' aspect. I think starting from an static grab doesn't give you much to work with. Your partner is applying force, but there's no momentum to it. IMHO you must force or trick him to start moving in order to actually unbalance him ... maybe an atemi or just the threat of it. I know that this probably negates some of your goals, but might be worth trying as a starting point.

regards,
Daniel
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 09:29 PM   #18
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 505
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Hi Jonathan, I think those exercises are great ideas. I've done a version of the open palm one, but the other is a little tricky sounding. Meaning, the people I know would not want to grab in the first place, so if I say "grab, but let go to strike any time," then they will not really grab, they'll just fake it and strike. Is that what you mean? In other words I have to fully connect even through this "token grab?" I like the idea but I think I have to work on static grabs more first.
Of course this converges on the idea of what happens before contact having value in my initial kuzushi.

But ultimately, I do want to make it so they can't let go. How to do this is more obvious within a more compressive connection based interaction: even if they let go, I am pressing in, so the connection stays (to a large degree). Just like the open-palm exercise. But realizing that this could happen in reverse, within an interaction that more favors the tensile connection has been big in my mind recently. (As they try to let go, force would continue to be exerted on their fingers against my wrist for example)

And all that is in addition to the 2 classic aikido ideas about why uke can't or shouldn't let go: 1. He will be falling if he does, or 2. He will be struck or pushed by the point of contact if he does.

I am trying to keep the 2 types of connection fused into a single percept from my point of view, so that the "inescapable connection" would operate seamlessly in either tensile or compressive directions. After all, I am trying to maintain both of these connections at all times.

Daniel I.: I can see what you mean. I want to work with intertia later (which is how I think of "using someones momentum"). But for me, that will be an adjunct skill. (That is a big part of what "ki no nagare training" means to me, and kihon comes first.) And if I didn't think I was getting any results from what I showed, I would be frustrated.

But I think it is working. In fact this whole training direction came to me when I realized that even in a light grab, with very little intent, and no motion, there are 2 tools that uke can't easily stop me from using: his own body's involuntary and dependable conduction of compressive force along his skeleton, and tensile force along his soft tissues.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 09:31 PM   #19
Tenyu
Dojo: Aikibodo
Location: Arcata CA
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 150
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post

He's not my training partner, just a video partner. But, I am really surprised to see you frown on the chaos-- exploring (requires experiencing) that was the whole point, and a common aikido uke would have smothered it with collusion. I was glad to see the forces move our bodies, without us drowning that out. And, as for my history, I have done mostly Iwama-influenced aikido since about 13 years ago. But this isn't that. This is new. I started a new direction 2 years ago. Anyway I am not a good student, so my training hours in 13 years only got me to 3rd kyu. So yeah, I am only BARELY your sempai! ;p
Jonathan,

Ikeda's doing Aikido in that demonstration and it's totally collusive as any good Aikido practice should be. If uke doesn't collude in giving nage the initial error of an attack within nage's abilities to receive it then neither person can practice Aikido. It's the basic foundation of practice and there's nothing wrong with that as long as no one has delusions about the premise. Since your video uke is untrained his center is disconnected from his own arm, what one of my teachers used to call the ‘dead squirrel' syndrome. All of uke needs to be alive, give very clear power applications, and move integrally to his center in order for nage to achieve any of the easy looking techniques Ikeda does.

Obviously nage needs to move integrally as well. Your arm and hand not being grabbed is another dead squirrel, it's important to use your whole body in every technique. In some of the more dynamic kokyunages you can see O Sensei throw both of his arms up when only one was facing uke. I'm not suggesting you do that, but it exaggerates my point that the whole body must be involved at all times, in fact Internal's preformal structures demands it. Another thing I noticed is that your posture was compromised many times. I don't recommend putting yourself in any positions however transient where you could be pushed over from any direction. To maximize my receptive alignment I rarely tilt my vertical axis in practice. I recommend keeping your head vertical as much as possible. The word resistance is used indiscriminately to mean opposite things here all the time. Uke applies power("resistance") to nage and it's nage's job to receive and throw completely without resistance in respect to nage's 90 degree phase lead over uke. Being aware of the rhythm is important too. A straight forward irimi carries a quick [And One] count where the reception and the throw happen in the same cycle, whereas the extended version usually has a [One, Long And(where uke is running back up and around nage) Two count].

Chaos is antithetical to any type of Aikido. Everything is predetermined, with less room for error in freestyle or real life situations outside the dojo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 12:58 AM   #20
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Here's a video of Sam Chin doing some kuzushi on contact stuff that may be relevant. Note: I have no affiliation to ILC (though I have taken a class or two to satisfy curiosity) so am not sure of the context of this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0Q6s-1Pi-E

I also quite like this clip as a explanation of how forces can interact

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLB9TxuQ4kk

Although they're not ideal, I believe these two clips could be used to frame Phi's 'four legged animal' thread? Phi?

Last edited by bob_stra : 02-25-2011 at 01:04 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 04:05 AM   #21
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I have trained with a lot of people and continue to do so. Many of them were some of the Aikido greats, now passed. To say that what Ikeda Sensei is doing is nothing special, well, either you are training with someone truly superior that I don't know about or you haven't really played with Ikeda Sensei enough.
Not that this means that there is no one truly superior, right?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 05:25 AM   #22
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 292
Canada
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
But ultimately, I do want to make it so they can't let go. How to do this is more obvious within a more compressive connection based interaction: even if they let go, I am pressing in, so the connection stays (to a large degree). Just like the open-palm exercise. But realizing that this could happen in reverse, within an interaction that more favors the tensile connection has been big in my mind recently. (As they try to let go, force would continue to be exerted on their fingers against my wrist for example)

And all that is in addition to the 2 classic aikido ideas about why uke can't or shouldn't let go: 1. He will be falling if he does, or 2. He will be struck or pushed by the point of contact if he does.

I am trying to keep the 2 types of connection fused into a single percept from my point of view, so that the "inescapable connection" would operate seamlessly in either tensile or compressive directions. After all, I am trying to maintain both of these connections at all times.
.
The very few times I have felt that I was fully controlled as uke, neither of the "classic" ideas really applied. I wasn't falling, nor was I in immediate threat of being struck. It was more like the feeling of my center being led around by my arm directly with my brain seemingly having little say in the matter.

Jonathan Olson
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 08:18 AM   #23
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 846
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Jonathan,

IMO you need to focus on a few things:

1. relax. While you keep your hand/forearm relaxed, most everything is upper body muscle. This is not easy. The muscles WANT to kick in for you. It takes lots of slow, relaxed low pressure conditioning of the joints so that they can handle the pressures being applied to them without big muscles kicking in to help.

2. work on developing a relaxed, connected body. Right now I see you using lots of muscle and leverage to connect your body so that you can connect to uke. Watch Ikeda, he doesn't do it that way. His body is connected in a different way.

I would recommend you attend a seminar with one of the people who often post about them in the non-aikido forum. They can get you on the right path to getting a better understanding of some of the things Ikeda talks about and does and give you exercises to get you started on the items I mentioned above. You could also ask around in the non-aikido forum for people in your area who have met with these people previously and want to get together to work on these things. There are quite a few groups like this around.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 08:48 AM   #24
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,702
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Although they're not ideal, I believe these two clips could be used to frame Phi's 'four legged animal' thread? Phi?
bob, stop bother me with these stuffs unless you have my basic requirements: food, drink and loose women. the first two are mandatory; the last, optional.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 08:55 AM   #25
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda's videos, my video, your video. Kuzushi on contact.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
bob, stop bother me with these stuffs unless you have my basic requirements: food, drink and loose women. the first two are mandatory; the last, optional.
Phil:

I thought the last two were mandatory?

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Mugendo Budogu - Official Aikikai Hakama now available!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video CitoMaramba Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 9 09-21-2007 12:25 AM
Physical contact vs. "no-touch" policy Stina Anonymous 28 12-16-2005 12:09 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:54 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate