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Old 02-22-2011, 08:49 AM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
LOL @ people defending trainwrecks like M. Tennenhouse. WTF?
Defending?

 
Old 02-22-2011, 09:04 AM   #27
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Demetrio:

Why are you defending this MT bloke? I'm just curious. What things do we have to learn about this trainwreck of a man? Marc and Toby were both there. Are you suggesting that they were embellishing something just so they can purposely defame the man? Are you suggesting that some of the guys there were were deliberately assholes towards the guy? Like Toby said, the dude could have ended up in the hospital if it was a different venue.

You were told by a guy who was not involved in the MT affair? You ARE told by a people who were INVOLVED in the MT affair--these guys have everything to lose if they were to defame MT like that...MT could press charges for defamation (or libel--sorry my knowledge of law sucks). But he wouldn't because 1) they caught him on tape 2) they have record of what he wrote on Aikiweb and Aikijournal. What would these guys have to gain from defaming a train-wreck like MT? These are all guys with different back grounds in martial arts and associations--was MT some kind of powerhouse heretic that these guys had to put him down in a cruel and Machiavellian way?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 09:28 AM   #28
C. David Henderson
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
*** still carrying him like the young monk was carrying the young lady in the tale. This could mean something... or not.
I think he suggests a larger principal may be implicated by the discussion.

And anyway, I always liked that story.

Regards,

David Henderson
 
Old 02-22-2011, 09:29 AM   #29
Marc Abrams
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Of course, thats why history is written, rewritten and rewritten again and again. On the tendency to interpret differently the same "facts", you are the psychologist (iirc). Why people gives different interpretations and meanings to the same facts?

Possibly, but for a being an irrelevant footnote he is still used as the mythological example and legendary standard of martial idiocy.

You guys are still carrying him like the young monk was carrying the young lady in the tale. This could mean something... or not.

Focusing in the positives, of course. Was not the MT incident part of the positives?

Regards.
Demetrio:

The simple fact is that I never raised the issue of MT in this thread but simply added commentary after it was already raised, so I do not know why you used the monk analogy. I would certainly agree that he does serve as a stark reminder to the Aikido world about being able to walk the talk, honesty, integrity..... I think that the person who first brought MT up was making a cautionary comparison to the original poster in the thread in which this originated from. I do not view that event as being even remotely similar to a mythology. Anti-mythology at best, since there has been a remarkable degree of under-reporting of the event, as opposed to larger-than-life distortions.

I do not consider the MT incident to be part of the positives. NOBODY I know who was there even remotely views that series of events in a positive manner. Greek comedy at best.... My positive memories are with the remarkable instructors, teachers, friends,... whom I was lucky enough to spend that time with.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-22-2011, 09:51 AM   #30
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Demetrio:

Why are you defending this MT bloke? I'm just curious.
I'm not defending him, read my previous posts.

Quote:
What things do we have to learn about this trainwreck of a man?
Its not about learning from him, its about learning about how things happen in the modern budo subculture.

Quote:
Marc and Toby were both there. Are you suggesting that they were embellishing something just so they can purposely defame the man?
I'm not suggesting some kind of aiki conspiracy against MT. I'm suggesting the complete history, all the relevant data, oppinions (what David Orange was asking for) is not available. For good causes possibly, but available is not.

[quote]Are you suggesting that some of the guys there were deliberately assholes towards the guy? Like Toby said, the dude could have ended up in the hospital if it was a different venue./QUOTE]
Deliberately or unconsciously or as a justified and deserved reaction to MT behaviour. Aikido people can be assholes too. They are no emotionless enlightened ascetic monks nor skirt wearing vulcanians. MT could have ended in a hospital if this happened in a different environment. Probably. Your point?

Quote:
You were told by a guy who was not involved in the MT affair? You ARE told by a people who were INVOLVED in the MT affair--these guys have everything to lose if they were to defame MT like that...MT could press charges for defamation (or libel--sorry my knowledge of law sucks).
Saying a guy sucks at aikido can be seen as defamation or libel? Really? Are the USA so different?

Quote:
But he wouldn't because 1) they caught him on tape 2) they have record of what he wrote on Aikiweb and Aikijournal. What would these guys have to gain from defaming a train-wreck like MT?
Nothing, but where is the defamation? In saying MT can't pull a decent Ikkyo? Seriously?

Quote:
These are all guys with different back grounds in martial arts and associations--was MT some kind of powerhouse heretic that these guys had to put him down in a cruel and Machiavellian way?
Or they simply overreacted. With the available data any conclusion is possible depending on individual agendas.

 
Old 02-22-2011, 10:13 AM   #31
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Demetrio:

The simple fact is that I never raised the issue of MT in this thread but simply added commentary after it was already raised, so I do not know why you used the monk analogy.
I wrote "you guys"... It wasn't adressed at you particularly.

Quote:
I would certainly agree that he does serve as a stark reminder to the Aikido world about being able to walk the talk, honesty, integrity..... I think that the person who first brought MT up was making a cautionary comparison to the original poster in the thread in which this originated from.
Sure. So MT affaire aquired a meaning trascending its own circunstances. Maybe some day, when one makes up some martial BS, we will say: "he pulled a Tennenhouse".

Quote:
I do not view that event as being even remotely similar to a mythology. Anti-mythology at best, since there has been a remarkable degree of under-reporting of the event, as opposed to larger-than-life distortions.
Well, MT is still in the memories of the aikido community and the story is still used as a dire warning.

Quote:
I do not consider the MT incident to be part of the positives. NOBODY I know who was there even remotely views that series of events in a positive manner. Greek comedy at best....
Or an exemplum.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 02-22-2011 at 10:15 AM. Reason: fixing quote tag

 
Old 02-22-2011, 10:18 AM   #32
Marc Abrams
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'm not defending him, read my previous posts.

Its not about learning from him, its about learning about how things happen in the modern budo subculture.
Very good point! The lesson observed by me was a re-affirmation as to how kind Aikidoka are in comparison to a lot of other martial artists. In a karate, judo, boxing, mma,.... environment, MT would have most likely received a fierce beating. In this instance, MT hurt himself by virtue of his own tipless judgment (trying to do a double leg takedown on a person twice your weight with better balance and body structure).

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'm not suggesting some kind of aiki conspiracy against MT. I'm suggesting the complete history, all the relevant data, oppinions (what David Orange was asking for) is not available. For good causes possibly, but available is not.
What is available on the public domain and spoken about on this forum should simply speak for itself. People can draw what ever conclusions that would like and write whatever history they feel is necessary. " All" and "complete" are two words that do not work well in regards to history. We do the best we can with what we have at the time.

[quote=Demetrio Cereijo;277315]
Quote:
Are you suggesting that some of the guys there were deliberately assholes towards the guy? Like Toby said, the dude could have ended up in the hospital if it was a different venue./QUOTE]
Deliberately or unconsciously or as a justified and deserved reaction to MT behaviour. Aikido people can be assholes too. They are no emotionless enlightened ascetic monks nor skirt wearing vulcanians. MT could have ended in a hospital if this happened in a different environment. Probably. Your point?
Aikidoka tend to act in a passive-aggressive manner more than an aggressive manner (in my own opinion). The events surrounding MT, to me, indicated that he was treated with a degree of kindness and respect that most people would never have extended to him in many other circumstances. We did have legitimate emotional responses to what turned out to be little more than a fraud, and despite that, he suffered no injuries as a result of how people treated him.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Or they simply overreacted. With the available data any conclusion is possible depending on individual agendas.
Despite a skeptical audience (based upon what he said and refused to say before the expo), he was given a venue to back up what he said. Nobody there over-reacted to what he did and did not do (my opinion). People can draw whatever conclusions they see fit. I really did not and do not see any personal agendas in what I have read from other people on this forum about MT. Their accounting was tempered, modest and did a good job at respectfully describing an unfortunate event.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-22-2011, 10:22 AM   #33
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
I think he suggests a larger principal may be implicated by the discussion.
Maybe the larger principal has dropped the lady years ago. He did what had to be done at that moment and that's all.

Quote:
And anyway, I always liked that story.
MT story or the river crossing monks story?

 
Old 02-22-2011, 10:33 AM   #34
Marc Abrams
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe the larger principal has dropped the lady years ago. He did what had to be done at that moment and that's all.

MT story or the river crossing monks story?
Demetrio:

On that note, let us allow this side note to fade off into the sunset....

I look forward to meeting you one day in person. I respect your intellectual honesty and integrity that is reflected in your posts. I will be in Jura, France next month for the Ushiro Sensei seminar. If you are nearby, please drop in.

Regards,

marc abrams
 
Old 02-22-2011, 10:46 AM   #35
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Demetrio:

On that note, let us allow this side note to fade off into the sunset....
No problem.

Quote:
I look forward to meeting you one day in person. I respect your intellectual honesty and integrity that is reflected in your posts. I will be in Jura, France next month for the Ushiro Sensei seminar. If you are nearby, please drop in.
A thousand miles away from here. I'd like to meet you and, of course Ushiro Sensei, but I have very limited resources and time for travelling. Maybe in the future. Thanks anyway.

Take care

 
Old 02-22-2011, 10:57 AM   #36
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Suggestion: a Soap Opera forum for aikiweb. For those so inclined.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 11:41 AM   #37
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post

This should be a caution to certain individuals harboring delusions of grandeur, but alas wisdom is not so obstreperous.

Toby
I not sure of the meaning of the last part of your sentence. Do you mean that;

wisdom is not so "Noisily and stubbornly defiant." (http://www.answers.com/topic/obstreperous)

or

wisdom is not so "Aggressively boisterous." (http://www.answers.com/topic/obstreperous)

dps
 
Old 02-22-2011, 11:44 AM   #38
dps
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

How did George become his uke?

Were there other people that were his uke?

dps
 
Old 02-22-2011, 12:55 PM   #39
Toby Threadgill
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Hi,

I actually have an copy of the entire event, not just snippets. Stan wanted me to have it as a back up in case any legal issue presented itself and his copy was damaged or lost. It was understood that this tape would not be made public and I will continue to respect his wishes.

I viewed the tape again last night and must agree with Marc Abrams, viewing the tape only confirms that my memory of the event is completely accurate. Tennenhouse behaved in a way that was bizarre and hard to justify. Additionally, the "good guys" critically called into question here on this forum were exactly as I remember and very restrained given the disconnect between what Tennenhouse claimed and what he presented. I think the aikidoka present demonstrated nothing beyond justified agitation. There certainly were jeers and such but given that the event was promoted as a Q&A, when questions were ignored it's reasonable to expect that some vociferious frustration would become evident.

Demetrio,

I'm sorry but to imply that it is impossible to evaluate this incident because all the facts are not available is nonsense. There are a lot of people here who were directly involved in this incident as it happened. Plus at least one I know of has the entire event on tape. That's pretty solid stuff. Your apparent qualifications for obtaining a complete picture of the event is fantastic and impossible to meet. Remember, I am not an aikidoka and had no dog in this fight. I was pretty much an independent observer until I saw with my own eyes what Tennenhouse really represented. At that point yes, I formed an opinion based on the facts as they unfolded right in front of me. Compared to other events like Ueshiba's dodging bullets or being showered with golden light, this one is pretty well supported and documented. At some point you have to accept that everyone's observation of an event will be colored ala Rashomon, but I believe David Orange's requirement's of "A full account" can be met realistically, while yours cannot.

@DPS

Simple...People demonstrating delusions of grandeur are frequently associated with stubborn and loud cries of defiance. People exhibiting wisdom, not so much.

As for George, Tennenhouse attended a few seminars the first day of the Expo. He participated in a seminar taught by Todd Jones sensei, the topic of which was performing aikido waza against a lead hand jab. The first technique was a version of sayonage. His partner was a thin aikido black belt I don't know but Tennenhouse never executed the technique successfully on this gentleman who didn't appear to know who Tennenhouse was. The next technique was Ikkyo and his partner was nice guy, Lynn Seiser. Same result with Lynn excuting at a speed you'd have to call moderate to slow. Frankly, during the session with Lynn Tennenhouse looked like he'd never attempted ikkyo on anyone. Tennenhouse next partnered with George Ledyard. On the tape you can clearly observe George slowly throwing jabs at Tennenhouse and tapping him lightly on the head. George was not jerking Tennenhouses chain in any way but finally shook his head and flashed a frustrated look at me because Tennenhouse clearly had no clue how to perform ikkyo and would not take any of George's advice. Finally Tennenhouse visibly frustrated attempted to tackle George, so George simply moves slightly back and corrected his posture. Tennenhouse flopped over on his back and that was it. Rather anticlimactic actually.

Toby

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-22-2011 at 12:59 PM.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 01:00 PM   #40
dps
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Toby,

Thank you

dps
 
Old 02-22-2011, 01:07 PM   #41
C. David Henderson
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
MT story or the river crossing monks story?
Both, as it happens.

David Henderson
 
Old 02-22-2011, 02:37 PM   #42
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Demetrio,

I'm sorry but to imply that it is impossible to evaluate this incident because all the facts are not available is nonsense.
Impossible is nothing, what we have here is not impossibility, what we have is difficulty.

Quote:
There are a lot of people here who were directly involved in this incident as it happened. Plus at least one I know of has the entire event on tape. That's pretty solid stuff. Your apparent qualifications for obtaining a complete picture of the event is fantastic and impossible to meet.
My apparent qualifications? What do you mean? I don't have any qualifications: I haven't a formal education in Martial Arts History, Budo Anthropology, Journalism or similar/related field, I don't remember having claimed being a professional historian or playing one on TV. My background is in HHRR/Human Factors.

Also, I haven't asked you (pl) to give me all the data for making an opinion by myself (who am I to ask for that?). I've only pointed to the "full account" not being available. You say what is around is enough to achieve a conclusive understanding of the event. Can we agree to disagree?

Quote:
Remember, I am not an aikidoka and had no dog in this fight. I was pretty much an independent observer until I saw with my own eyes what Tennenhouse really represented. At that point yes, I formed an opinion based on the facts as they unfolded right in front of me. Compared to other events like Ueshiba's dodging bullets or being showered with golden light, this one is pretty well supported and documented.
Sure, no problem.

Quote:
At some point you have to accept that everyone's observation of an event will be colored ala Rashomon, but I believe David Orange's requirement's of "A full account" can be met realistically, while yours cannot
.
Ah, Rashomon... great movie.

 
Old 02-22-2011, 03:05 PM   #43
SeiserL
 
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
nice guy, Lynn Seiser.
No need for name calling Sensei. LOL

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 02-22-2011, 04:05 PM   #44
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I've only pointed to the "full account" not being available. You say what is around is enough to achieve a conclusive understanding of the event. Can we agree to disagree?.
Hi Demetrio,

Sure, we can agree to disagree but it was David Orange that posed the question. It's up to him to qualify or stipulate what constitutes a "full account".

(It's obvious a language issue exists here given you misunderstood my use of the word "qualifications" in my previous post (think requirements, stipulations, conditions) so we could be talking past one another.)

It is my impression that David wanting the full story meant he wanted to hear the story from someone who was actually there as opposed to the half baked 3rd hand rumors that are floating around the aikido community. David never implied in my mind that he was seeking something on the order of court evidence and/or legal depositions.

David...If you're out there, are you satisfied you got the "full account"? Between what's been presented by me and Marc Abrams I can't think of anything relevant to add. If something we said was off base I'm sure George and or Lynn would step in to clarify.

Toby

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-22-2011 at 04:07 PM.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 04:16 PM   #45
Marc Abrams
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Hi Demetrio,

Sure, we can agree to disagree but it was David Orange that posed the question. It's up to him to qualify or stipulate what constitutes a "full account".

(It's obvious a language issue exists here given you misunderstood my use of the word "qualifications" in my previous post (think requirements, stipulations, conditions) so we could be talking past one another.)

It is my impression that David wanting the full story meant he wanted to hear the story from someone who was actually there as opposed to the half baked 3rd hand rumors that are floating around the aikido community. David never implied in my mind that he was seeking something on the order of court evidence and/or legal depositions.

David...If you're out there, are you satisfied you got the "full account"? Between what's been presented by me and Marc Abrams I can't think of anything relevant to add. If something we said was off base I'm sure George and or Lynn would step in to clarify.

Toby
Toby:

If we wanted to add more, we could point out that MT's Q & A was an attempt on his part to "teach" his "way." My impressions were that a) he did not have a clue as to the teaching methodology behind static grabs b) did not have a real understanding of the basics of a proper attack c) did not have a real understanding of the basics of a kokyu-nage. Needless to say, that "starting point" was the beginning of the train wreck...... My fond recollection of the end of that episode was Mr. Threadgill and Mr. Williams following MT out to the back door as he tried to escape from having to answer questions that they asked about his training, rank, etc....

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-22-2011, 05:01 PM   #46
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Hi Demetrio,

Sure, we can agree to disagree but it was David Orange that posed the question. It's up to him to qualify or stipulate what constitutes a "full account".
Of course.

Quote:
(It's obvious a language issue exists here given you misunderstood my use of the word "qualifications" in my previous post (think requirements, stipulations, conditions) so we could be talking past one another.)
Yes, I need better dictionaries.

Regards.

PS. I still owe you a beer waza session.

 
Old 02-22-2011, 05:34 PM   #47
SeiserL
 
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
If something we said was off base I'm sure George and or Lynn would step in to clarify.
IMHO, its clear and accurate.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 02-22-2011, 09:08 PM   #48
Toby Threadgill
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
PS. I still owe you a beer waza session.
Demetrio,

I'll be in Ronda, Spain next week and again the fall



Toby
 
Old 02-22-2011, 10:52 PM   #49
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post

Focusing in the positives, of course. Was not the MT incident part of the positives?

Regards.
Well, of course it turned out that way for me. I had taught a class during that Expo... but because there were so many classes going on simultaneously, with some of the real "big names" as well, I had about eight to ten folks in my class of whom all but one or two already had trained with me at some previous time. So it wasn't that great from the standpoint of making new connections.

Then, Tennenhouse threw his back out trying to do a double leg on me (I didn't even sprawl in an attempt NOT to hurt him, I merely stepped back into hanmi and grabbed his obi and held his butt in the air so he couldn't drive me back on my heels)...

Within an hour people I had never met, had no idea who they were, cam up to me asking if "I was the guy who'd taken out Tennenhouse?" I had no idea that many people knew about Tennenhouse... sure as hell a lot more than knew who I was... probably an example of that saying that "no publicity is bad publicity". By the end of the Expo, far more people knew me as the guy who had taken out Tennenhouse than had seen any of my Aikido... Ellis even ended up writing a piece explaining that I had not, in any way, done anything to hurt the fellow. I was going to get a t-shirt that said "I didn't do it".

Anyway, the guy was clearly not tracking. It would have been like injuring a handicapped person. I was actually trying to help him when he hurt himself because it was so apparent he hadn't a clue.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:50 AM   #50
Dan Rubin
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Here's Mr. Tennenhouse's side of the story, posted soon after the event:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/arch...14772-p-8.html

Scroll down to the post by "backwardwalker" (that's him). His post is followed by reactions to it (all negative) and his responses.

Last edited by Dan Rubin : 02-23-2011 at 07:01 AM.
 

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