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Old 02-20-2011, 10:15 PM   #1
Dan Rubin
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Did he really think that making such a declaration among instructors with decades of experience would not result in some pretty intense scrutiny?
Can you say "Mark Tennenhouse?"
 
Old 02-20-2011, 10:25 PM   #2
Mike Sigman
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
Can you say "Mark Tennenhouse?"
Or even "John Carlo" or some name like that? Problem is that I was talking about the content of internal strength in koryu arts, not the baddest guy around. Maybe at some time in the future we can convince people that there's a difference between the two, but we need to do it pretty soon before it gets into asking people what pro's they've fought and beat on their fight-card.

Back to our regularly scheduled "internal strength" discussion.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-21-2011, 01:12 PM   #3
Toby Threadgill
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
I wasn't addressing or referring to you, Mike. I was addressing Toby Threadgill, whom I quoted.
Hi Dan,

Yes...Much like Tennenhouse. Boy, he fell off the planet after his "outing" didn't he?

Toby
 
Old 02-21-2011, 04:47 PM   #4
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Yes...Much like Tennenhouse. Boy, he fell off the planet after his "outing" didn't he?
LOL Who? LOL

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 02-21-2011, 05:35 PM   #5
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
...Much like Tennenhouse. Boy, he fell off the planet after his "outing" didn't he?
Where can the full account of this be found?

I generally understand that he claimed he'd discovered or invented new dimensions of aikido that far surpassed everything previously known, then, given a chance to show them at AikiExpo '05, he couldn't do a thing.

I'd just like to get the rest of the story.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-21-2011, 06:06 PM   #6
Toby Threadgill
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Where can the full account of this be found?

I generally understand that he claimed he'd discovered or invented new dimensions of aikido that far surpassed everything previously known, then, given a chance to show them at AikiExpo '05, he couldn't do a thing.

I'd just like to get the rest of the story.

Best wishes.

David
David,

Well, since I videotaped the whole thing for Stan Pranin, I pretty much observed the resulting train wreck (pun) up close and personal.

In a nutshell, Tennenhouse claimed he had all the answers to "fix" aikido. He showed up wearing a black belt, but after watching him about 30 seconds it was obvious he was no yudansha. He could not execute any orthodox aikido waza with any competency. This led me to conclude that the reason he was trying to "fix" aikido was because he couldn't actually do any aikido.

Among the most illuminating moments was one where Mr Tennenhouse attempted to do a basic Ikkyo on George Ledyard on Saturday. Tennenhouse hadn't a clue and mind you, and George was not giving him a hard time. Tennenhouse never listened to George's attempt to help him, finally got frustrated over his repeated failures and attempted a charging double leg tackle...Yes...against George Ledyard back in his 300lb days. Have you ever seen a car hit a brick wall? Needless to say, the attempt was unsuccessful, George just stood there and Mr Tennenhouse went off to the hospital.....

The following day Tennenhouse complained to me that he was being treated badly by everyone. I was incredulous. I told him he was damn lucky it was an aikido crowd because if he'd pulled this stunt on a judo or karate crowd he'd have gone to the hospital for an extended visit.

Following this debacle I contacted his teacher, a Mr Gotlin, with the assistance of Marc Abrams. Tennenhouse I was informed was only a sankyu, and not a good one at that. He had just prior to the Aiki Expo pleaded for Mr Gotlin to promote him to shodan, but Mr Gotlin refused.

This should be a caution to certain individuals harboring delusions of grandeur, but alas wisdom is not so obstreperous.

Toby

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-21-2011 at 06:14 PM.
 
Old 02-21-2011, 06:09 PM   #7
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Where can the full account of this be found?
Full as complete, unbiased and exact? Nowhere.

Quote:
I generally understand that he claimed he'd discovered or invented new dimensions of aikido that far surpassed everything previously known, then, given a chance to show them at AikiExpo '05, he couldn't do a thing.
What he claimed was anything extraordinaire, you can still find some of his writings in Aikido Journal, but he (like many) was more talk than walk and his lack of "zanshin" made him swallow hook, line and sinker at the expo.
 
Old 02-21-2011, 06:21 PM   #8
Toby Threadgill
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Full as complete, unbiased and exact? Nowhere..
Demetrio,

Why would you assume such a thing? I have the whole incident on video. That's pretty unbiased.

Toby Threadgill
 
Old 02-21-2011, 06:23 PM   #9
Janet Rosen
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

That is one heck of an example of delusion + chutzpah taking somebody to the precipice and over!

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 02-21-2011, 06:29 PM   #10
Keith Larman
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Kind of a variation on a old joke. In his case his dogma was run over by his own karma... Self-inflicted wounds yet again.

 
Old 02-21-2011, 06:56 PM   #11
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Demetrio,

Why would you assume such a thing? I have the whole incident on video. That's pretty unbiased.

Toby Threadgill
Hi Toby,

The video is a part of what happened, there are only 10 MT posts and two blog entries in AJ (and he posted way more and in other sites too) with his claims and ensuing debates. I've been told by another attendant to the expo who was not involved in the MT affaire the behaviour of some of the "good guys" was not especially gentlemanly... and MT version of the incident is not available.

You have a very relevant part of the story videotaped (and, afaik, the video has not been published) but all what happened before, during and after is incomplete and there is some subjectivity in the witnessess and in the participants.

That's why I consider there is not a complete, unbiased and exact account of MT incident.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 02-21-2011 at 06:59 PM.
 
Old 02-21-2011, 07:37 PM   #12
Marc Abrams
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Toby,

The video is a part of what happened, there are only 10 MT posts and two blog entries in AJ (and he posted way more and in other sites too) with his claims and ensuing debates. I've been told by another attendant to the expo who was not involved in the MT affaire the behaviour of some of the "good guys" was not especially gentlemanly... and MT version of the incident is not available.

You have a very relevant part of the story videotaped (and, afaik, the video has not been published) but all what happened before, during and after is incomplete and there is some subjectivity in the witnessess and in the participants.

That's why I consider there is not a complete, unbiased and exact account of MT incident.
Demetrio:

I was there and I was one of those "good guys" involved in the affair. Mr. Threadgill was kind in his description of Mark. He was exact and to the point about mentioning what would have happened if it had not been an Aikido affair. Mark was given more than his fair share. He was given enough rope to tie a hammock or a noose. The one he tied was obvious to all. Lynn was another of those "good guys" who had interactions with Mark. It is very easy for the you to sit back and make those observations without having to have been there. The "complete" and "exact" parts that are missing would simply have placed Mark in a worse light than described. Unbiased? Give me a break. He had more than a fair opportunity to display any degree of competency. The opinions formed were as a direct result of the gross discrepancy between what he wrote about and would he was able to do (more appropriately put as to how much he could not do). So exactly what aspects of that episode do you have a problem with and why?

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-21-2011, 07:54 PM   #13
Toby Threadgill
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I've been told by another attendant to the expo who was not involved in the MT affaire the behaviour of some of the "good guys" was not especially gentlemanly
Hello,

That's somewhat true but this behavior stemmed from Tennenhouse's grandiose belief that he was invited there by Stan Pranin to teach a seminar. Nothing could be further from the truth. Stan merely offered Tennenhouse space to perform a Q&A session. When Tennenhouse refused to answer questions like "What is your rank and experience in aikido", and " Can you please demonstrate a typical Aikido Ikkyo?" things got rather heated, and rightfully so. When he then tried to start teaching a seminar, the situation got worse and I interceded. The mess broke up with Tennenhouse refusing to tell anyone how long he trained, with who and what his rank was.

Tennenhouse was hung by his own petard.

Toby
 
Old 02-21-2011, 08:15 PM   #14
kewms
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Among the most illuminating moments was one where Mr Tennenhouse attempted to do a basic Ikkyo on George Ledyard on Saturday. Tennenhouse hadn't a clue and mind you, and George was not giving him a hard time. Tennenhouse never listened to George's attempt to help him, finally got frustrated over his repeated failures and attempted a charging double leg tackle...Yes...against George Ledyard back in his 300lb days. Have you ever seen a car hit a brick wall? Needless to say, the attempt was unsuccessful, George just stood there and Mr Tennenhouse went off to the hospital.....
I'm visualizing this... and trying (and failing) to imagine the level of self-delusion that would be required to think something like this would work.... wow.

Katherine
 
Old 02-21-2011, 08:22 PM   #15
Keith Larman
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm visualizing this... and trying (and failing) to imagine the level of self-delusion that would be required to think something like this would work.... wow.

Katherine
And, actually, I know people in Aikido, calm, serene, and very nice people, who would probably have put a world of hurt on someone who would try something like that. Not necessarily intentionally, but sometimes reflexes and reaction kick in before you have a chance to temper the response... And then to try that on someone of George's size and abilities... Yeah, delusion is too kind a word.

Saw a guy repeatedly start to get up after being taken down while the instructor was saying "stay down until I let you back up". The instructor kept releasing the lock because he didn't want to hurt the guy. But after about the third time he just left it on. Didn't crank anything but the guy came up and ran right into it, hurting his shoulder. And he got upset that he was injured. Idiot.

 
Old 02-21-2011, 09:03 PM   #16
graham christian
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Now that's an important point right there that I havn't as yet seen discussed on this forum, recently anyway. The 'hard-headedness' of the uke.

When a technique is done correctly the uke has no choice but to comply. I have watched many demonstrations and been involved in sessions where Ukes were throwing themselves to avoid pain.

On the other hand I can do a soft technique where the uke, through his own resistance and hard headedness tries with all his might to fight it or prove something and ends up hurting.

This point is important to remember I think for it is a major point of Aikido that the uke, when a technique is done properly with care, is the only one who can damage himself through his own resistance.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 05:56 AM   #17
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Marc,

I don't have any problem with what happened and why. David asked "Where can the full account of this be found?". In my opinion, the full account can't be found anywhere. There still are bits and pieces around but some data has been lost, some is in private hands and some is not available for those who don't need to know.

What remains is Threadgill Sensei tape (still unpublished afaik), the memories of the people involved (and not everyone who was there has told what, in their opinion, happened) and a handful of posts around the web, so I don't think a complete picture of the incident exists at this moment.

In some years, the MT incident will be only a story like the Judo vs JJ matches in 19th century Japan, Ueshiba vs the firing squad or Sokaku leveling the Kodokan. What happened, how and why we don't really know.

OTOH, you can think it's very easy making observations without having been there, but it's not. What is easy from here is avoiding the emotional involvement of the people who participated so if I were interested in studying the MT incident as a history aficionado, I would have some advantage at mantaining objectivity and neutrality

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 02-22-2011 at 05:58 AM.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 07:20 AM   #18
dps
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Can we see the video?

dps
 
Old 02-22-2011, 07:35 AM   #19
Marc Abrams
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Can we see the video?

dps
David:

The only copy of the video is privately held by Stanley Pranin. It was made for the sole purpose of documenting the gentleman so as to create an independent record in case some legal issues arose from his appearance at the expo. Since there was nothing of a legal nature that arose after the expo, there was simply no use for the video being shown. As many people have noted, the video would serve no real purpose other than to highlight what people have said previously about that person.

There are people out there who do have some additional video clips of "Mark in Action." I can tell you that at best, they are amusing. At worst, just another clip of someone who thought that he know something, but actually knew nothing.

Regards,

Marc
 
Old 02-22-2011, 07:39 AM   #20
Marc Abrams
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Marc,

I don't have any problem with what happened and why. David asked "Where can the full account of this be found?". In my opinion, the full account can't be found anywhere. There still are bits and pieces around but some data has been lost, some is in private hands and some is not available for those who don't need to know.

What remains is Threadgill Sensei tape (still unpublished afaik), the memories of the people involved (and not everyone who was there has told what, in their opinion, happened) and a handful of posts around the web, so I don't think a complete picture of the incident exists at this moment.

In some years, the MT incident will be only a story like the Judo vs JJ matches in 19th century Japan, Ueshiba vs the firing squad or Sokaku leveling the Kodokan. What happened, how and why we don't really know.

OTOH, you can think it's very easy making observations without having been there, but it's not. What is easy from here is avoiding the emotional involvement of the people who participated so if I were interested in studying the MT incident as a history aficionado, I would have some advantage at mantaining objectivity and neutrality
Demetrio:

Alas, history tends to be recorded as snippets cut and pasted together. People even have a tendency to view the same video differently.

To me, the larger reality is that Mark should remain as a irrelevant footnote to an event (series of events, really) that helped to change the face of Aikido today. Stanley's legacy and gift to all of us, should remain focused on the positives and not some silly distraction (my own opinion).

Regards,

marc abrams
 
Old 02-22-2011, 07:39 AM   #21
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

LOL @ people defending trainwrecks like M. Tennenhouse. WTF?

Damn, I haven't heard that name in a long ass time. Good ole' aikido dayz.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 07:41 AM   #22
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

I actually remember seeing the video. Tennenhouse tried to apply an ikkyo on Lynnn Seiser. Couldn't pull it off. Was that in the video as well?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 07:43 AM   #23
Marc Abrams
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I actually remember seeing the video. Tennenhouse tried to apply an ikkyo on Lynnn Seiser. Couldn't pull it off. Was that in the video as well?
Yup,

That was one of my favorite clips! Kind of like watching a train wreck happening .

I should be in Tokyo in early June. Let's find a way to meet over some beers, sake,......

Marc
 
Old 02-22-2011, 07:49 AM   #24
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Hey...Ushiro is in Osaka. You can't make him come over there, desho?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 09:46 AM   #25
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: On M. Tennenhouse

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Demetrio:

Alas, history tends to be recorded as snippets cut and pasted together. People even have a tendency to view the same video differently.
Of course, thats why history is written, rewritten and rewritten again and again. On the tendency to interpret differently the same "facts", you are the psychologist (iirc). Why people gives different interpretations and meanings to the same facts?

Quote:
To me, the larger reality is that Mark should remain as a irrelevant footnote to an event (series of events, really) that helped to change the face of Aikido today.
Possibly, but for a being an irrelevant footnote he is still used as the mythological example and legendary standard of martial idiocy.

You guys are still carrying him like the young monk was carrying the young lady in the tale. This could mean something... or not.

Quote:
Stanley's legacy and gift to all of us, should remain focused on the positives and not some silly distraction (my own opinion).
Focusing in the positives, of course. Was not the MT incident part of the positives?

Regards.
 

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