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Old 02-20-2011, 08:12 PM   #51
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hey Mark,
I think this thread is going away from where you originally intended. Maybe someone will start another thread to address what is being discussed now. Sorry for the hijack.

If you are boxing with someone (unarmed), the common boxing cover is a far better practice than wrist grabbing. The boxing cover allows you to move into range, limits the damage the other fellow can inflict on you, and allows you to land a powerful blow with either hand.

If you want to bring them into a control position (top mount etc) than simply shooting in on them, gaining a double leg or if you miss getting a waist lock or bear hug, than applying a take down into control position is a favorable strategy.

Wrist grabbing, as a non-transitory technique, in an unarmed situation is not the best idea, so there is no real need to train for it. That's why we don't see much training for this in MMA gyms. A wrist grab is only a needed to control the hand specifically, which is seldom needed unless someone is armed.
Boxing. Sure and I have boxing and judo experience. 3 on 1 though. I didn't give anything away until actually attacked.

Control position. Not with 3 on 1.

Wrist grabs. Sure its not a great attack. But if done for real I think it will be a lot more effective than "grab and push to center" or "grab and immobilize". One seminar instructor said something to the effect, that morotedori should be applied as yonkyo.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 02-20-2011, 08:53 PM   #52
David Orange
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
A wrist grab, when used as a means to control someone is a transitory position. If I want to pull you into my car, then I may grab your wrist, if it's the most expedient part of you for me to grab, but I do not have any specific need to hold the wrist. Hair, your arm, your purse, your leg, your neck are all good things for me to grab, if I simply want to control you. But I grab them so I can pull you into a better holding position, like a bear hug. The wrist grab is simply a quick start position from which I will soon transition into a better hold.
Now you're thinking sensibly. A weapon is not part of the equation here.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This lack of commitment, is not what we see in Aikido techniques.
It's not what you see in bad or confused aikido tecniques but it's the only thing you see in good aikido. In Mochizuki Sensei's yoseikan, any wrist grab was simply to set the defender up for a punch or a throw. The attack could be karate, judo, jujutsu, sumo or simple manhandling but no one ever simply grabbed and held on. And if nage didn't apply an effective aikido technique in the first instant, uke would continue to follow through with any kind of attack he was good at. It wasn't a theoretical concept.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
In Aikido techniques we see Uke having a need to hold the wrist quite specifically.
Again, "we" see that only in the most superficial kind of aikido practice with an inexperienced teacher. It's an attack with no meaning, which has no place in aikido training.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If I have a weapon in my hand, you cannot let go of my hand unless you want to be struck by my weapon. This gives the attacker (uke) a real need to hold your wrist specifically. In Aikido wrist grabs are not a transitory position, they are the attack, because if you can hold my weapon hand, you can stop me from inflicting life ending damage to you.
That only applies to aikido if "you" are the uke and you're attacking with a knife. And then the point is not to hold the wrist but to use that grip to apply a technique. And that's the same as I've seen in karate and jujutsu self-defense applications: control the weapon hand for the 1/4 second required to implement kuzushi and a disarming technique.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Further, the common Aikido syllabus doesn't have escape techniques for the most common unarmed holds (e.g. bear hugs, waist locks, headlocks, other common core control techniques), but has a multitude of escape techniques from wrist controls. Why would this be?
Because it's not?

Bear hugs, waist locks, headlocks and other kinds of general controling attacks were part of the aikido syllabus I learned from day one and I've seen them taught elsewhere, as well. I can't imagine serious aikido training without that range of basics.

But the real reason for teaching wrist grabs is that they're the easiest way to teach the kihon technique and the movements apply with little modification to straight punches, hooks, yokomen uchi, shomen uchi, etc., as well as weapon attacks. And wrist grabs are the most likely attacks to be encountered by women and children.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If we understand Aikido as a weapon based system the answer is clear. If you don't control my weapon hand, I will simply cut you down. If you try a side headlock on an armed person, there is no need for them to have a means of escape, they can simply cut themselves out. If we can keep our weapon free, common holds offer us little problem. This is why there is a premium put on freeing the wrist, and not on escaping common holds.
You mentioned somewhere that you've been a black belt in aikido for ten years or so. I've been a black belt for 29 years and in that time, I've seen the thing you describe (nage holding a weapon) maybe five times. Minoru Mochizuki referred to it once (and only tangentially) out of thousands of times I practiced wrist grabs in his dojo. He pointed out that if someone grabs you in jun katate dori (single-hand same-side grab), the escape is as simple as raising your arm as if you were raising a sword: the attacker's grip in easily broken in that way. He never addressed the idea of the aikidoka's being armed with a knife. There may have been some mention, once or twice, of some ancient roots in preventing a swordsman from drawing a sword, but that was mostly theoretical and in day-to-day training, the scenario was always of an unarmed civilian, walking along when he (or she) is suddenly grabbed and pulled into some bad situation. Of course, the grab could be a wrist grab, a choke, a headlock, escort hold, shoulder hold, two hands from the rear, bear hug, etc., etc., etc. The only person armed was the uke--never nage.

Besides this, even if someone grabs my wrist when I'm holding a knife, I can cut their arm with no problem. And if I have a drawn sword in my hand, a wrist grab will not deter me in the least from cutting the attacker in half. That whole idea is completely mistaken.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
As far as the "I don't carry weapons" argument goes, it's a moot point. First and foremost the samurai did carry weapons, lots of them, always. So from the stand point of a system inspired by the Samurai perspective, they were people who always carried weapons. A Samurai wasn't going to "ground and pound", he was going to cut you down, the only way you might possibly stop him (if you were not armed yourself) would be to gain wrist control. These techniques (Aikido techniques) come from a weapon culture, that's what they work for.
Although Sokaku Takeda was known to carry a dagger and sometimes a sword cane, the prime weapon of Daito Ryu was the iron fan: good for smacking and smashing, but not sharp and not a cutting instrument. Ueshiba was never known to carry a knife or sword in daily life, though he did often carry a fan. Also, many other Daito Ryu men carried fans--some of them iron. None is noted for having carried knives or other blades as a matter of course. So this line of speculation seems to have no grounding in fact and only leads to some bad thinking, bad imagination and bad spiritual influence in general.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Second, if you are serious about self defense you do carry weapons. Anyone who seriously considers the need to protect themselves will carry weapons. Aikido is a perfect system of study for these people.
Again, after all these years walking alone in one of the most dangerous cities in the US, with over 36 years of aikido training (and karate before that), I wonder why I have never felt the need to carry a weapon? I've faced multiple attackers more than once, some of them armed, and I've never had to actually fight any of them. I only actually touched another person once and it didn't go any further than that.

I do remember a student, once, who was fascinated by guns and double-edged knives. He wanted me to teach him the techniques from Mike Echanis' book on knife fighting since it looked exactly like what I do except with a knife in each hand. He wanted to go to the military and go kill people in South America. I declined to teach him any further. Years later, after a stint in the Army, he was approached at an ATM by a guy with a gun. He drew his 9mm and shot the fellow in the leg. The robber dropped to the ground and shot upward, shooting my old student through the heart. The guy who had built his life around weapons ran several yards before falling dead.

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Third, if you are an aware person, you are almost never unarmed. Bottles, sticks, rocks, fire extinguishers, kitchen knives, car keys, brooms, wrenches, screwdrivers, etc all make expedient weapons. If you are aware of the need for a weapon, you can almost always find one rather quickly. Once you are armed, the only real chance someone stands in a fight with you is to eliminate your use of the weapon, wrist grabs are a good way to do this.
I do teach my students that a car key or door key is effectively the equivalent of a knife. And even if they grab the hand I'm holding the key in, I can easily continue to use the key per my methods even while applying aikido technique.

Real aikido has ancient roots in sword methods but they are generally indirect and rather conceptual at that. Mochizuki Sensei created a wonderful kata (ken tai iichi) to show the relationship, based on his training in katori shinto ryu. But he also developed several other katas explaining tai sabaki, the principles of technique, principles of omote and ura and others. None featured nage holding a weapon.

That line of thinking is mistaken and misguided and it's best abandoned before it leads you into worse mistakes.

Good luck on that.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 02-20-2011, 09:01 PM   #53
David Orange
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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When you think about it there are many situations in life when you could be grabbed by the wrist(s). It's the favorite method of doormen and security, it's favoured by groups of muggers, it's favoured by people who think they are much stronger and bigger than you, (especially bullies) it's favoured by someone trying to pull you somewhere. Etc.
Oddly enough, the one time anyone actually laid hands on me...he grabbed my wrist.

He was a lot bigger than I and a lot stronger. This was the summer of 1975, before I began serious aikido training so I didn't know how to respond.

Fortunately, he was harmless. But he was the last stranger that laid hands on me.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-20-2011, 09:06 PM   #54
David Orange
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
Wrist grabs. Sure its not a great attack. But if done for real I think it will be a lot more effective than "grab and push to center" or "grab and immobilize". One seminar instructor said something to the effect, that morotedori should be applied as yonkyo.
Even in ikkyo, one hand is "grabbing" uke's wrist or hand while the other works his elbow. In pretty much every aikido "hand" technique, we "hold" uke's arm in some way.

But in aikido strategy, it's always after uke grabs for us (or punches, or whatever).

What you describe in the OP could just as well be the beginning of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo or a number of other standard techniques instead of just "slinging" the attacker by his arm. But generally, it begins when uke extends his arm toward us.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 02-20-2011, 09:42 PM   #55
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

Mark,
In a multiple attacker situation I agree, don't go into a clinch.I think Ueshiba thought the same way.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 02-20-2011 at 09:44 PM.

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Old 02-20-2011, 10:34 PM   #56
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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Bear hugs, waist locks, headlocks and other kinds of general controling attacks were part of the aikido syllabus I learned from day one and I've seen them taught elsewhere, as well. I can't imagine serious aikido training without that range of basics.
depending on what style of Aikido you study you may learn a few common escape holds. But as this is not true across the board. When looking at what all styles of Aikido have in common we have, Katate, Gyakute, Morote, Ryote, Ushiro Kubishimi, and Ushiro ryote, Escapes. Some styles have a few common hold escapes, but these are not at the heart of our practice. My main Aikido teacher was an Uchi-deshi of Morihiro Saito, I don't believe we covered Headlock escapes two times during my training with him. Looking through Ueshiba's books I don't see any common hold escapes. I'm sure he did them at one point or another, but they are certainly not in anyway an important part of Aikido training as a whole.

Quote:
But the real reason for teaching wrist grabs is that they're the easiest way to teach the kihon technique and the movements apply with little modification to straight punches, hooks, yokomen uchi, shomen uchi, etc., as well as weapon attacks. And wrist grabs are the most likely attacks to be encountered by women and children.
Wrist grab attacks are common to Koryu Jujutsu. They were not thinking of training women or children. Koryu Jujutsu, even though it's very hard to speak about such a diverse group of systems, does lots of work around wrist grabbing. The reason for this is because they train the samurai culture, a weapon culture, where someone holding your wrist (weapon hand) is a real threat. The idea that we train from wrist grabs because it's simpler comes from people not understanding the kinds of techniques we are training.

Quote:
You mentioned somewhere that you've been a black belt in aikido for ten years or so. I've been a black belt for 29 years and in that time, I've seen the thing you describe (nage holding a weapon) maybe five times. Minoru Mochizuki referred to it once (and only tangentially) out of thousands of times I practiced wrist grabs in his dojo. He pointed out that if someone grabs you in jun katate dori (single-hand same-side grab), the escape is as simple as raising your arm as if you were raising a sword: the attacker's grip in easily broken in that way. He never addressed the idea of the aikidoka's being armed with a knife. There may have been some mention, once or twice, of some ancient roots in preventing a swordsman from drawing a sword, but that was mostly theoretical and in day-to-day training, the scenario was always of an unarmed civilian, walking along when he (or she) is suddenly grabbed and pulled into some bad situation. Of course, the grab could be a wrist grab, a choke, a headlock, escort hold, shoulder hold, two hands from the rear, bear hug, etc., etc., etc. The only person armed was the uke--never nage.
The modern idea of Aikido training is no doubt from the perspective of unarmed martial arts. However the techniques were never adapted to this idea. The Aikido syllabus is very similar to those found in Koryu small arms techniques. The techniques that best suit unarmed conflict that come from koryu Jujutsu can be found in Judo. The Judo syllabus and the Aikido syllabus are very different, yet both represent much of what can be found in Koryu Jujutsu. The techniques that are found in Aikido are those based around weapons conflict, even though we may want to use them in unarmed situations that is not what they are best designed to do. Wrist holding is VERY important in weapons conflict, but only trivial in unarmed conflict.

If someone is holding your wrist for dear life (which is the case if you are armed and fighting them) it IS NOT easy to make them let go. It's VERY difficult.

Quote:
Besides this, even if someone grabs my wrist when I'm holding a knife, I can cut their arm with no problem. And if I have a drawn sword in my hand, a wrist grab will not deter me in the least from cutting the attacker in half. That whole idea is completely mistaken.
If you grab the wrist correctly, a knife cannot cut you. If you don't know how to grab a wrist, than it can be easy. Here's a video from my website showing the right way to grab a wrist:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=253

If you grab the swords man's wrist before he can draw his sword, and you continue to hold it (non transitory wrist grab), you can keep him from drawing his sword, thus keeping him from cutting you in half. If he manages to draw his sword anyways, and you keep hold of the wrist, you can move your body with the cuts (having the wrist slows him, and quickly tells you where he is going with the cut) and try to keep him from cutting you in half. Dealing with someone with a weapon is ridiculously difficult, but having control of his weapon hand is your best chance. As the guy with the weapon (Aikido syllabus) the wrist grab cost you, time, effort, and control. The ability to quickly defeat the wrist grab is of the utmost importance.

Quote:
Although Sokaku Takeda was known to carry a dagger and sometimes a sword cane, the prime weapon of Daito Ryu was the iron fan: good for smacking and smashing, but not sharp and not a cutting instrument. Ueshiba was never known to carry a knife or sword in daily life, though he did often carry a fan. Also, many other Daito Ryu men carried fans--some of them iron. None is noted for having carried knives or other blades as a matter of course. So this line of speculation seems to have no grounding in fact and only leads to some bad thinking, bad imagination and bad spiritual influence in general.
No imagination necessary. Iron fan is a common Koryu Jujutsu weapon. Koryu Jujutsu deals mainly with the use of small weapons (like iron fans, tanto, or other kakushi buki. Systmes like this use lots of techniques from wrist grabs. Aikido isn't a Koryu, but it is heavily influenced by them. And the similarity of techniques is obvious. Takeda and Ueshiba were no strangers to these ideas, they were in fact masters of them, and this can quickly be seen in their bodies of work.

Quote:
Again, after all these years walking alone in one of the most dangerous cities in the US, with over 36 years of aikido training (and karate before that), I wonder why I have never felt the need to carry a weapon? I've faced multiple attackers more than once, some of them armed, and I've never had to actually fight any of them. I only actually touched another person once and it didn't go any further than that.
If the need to carry weapons was this trivial you would not find their use so common amongst the military. Contemplating self defense with out the use of weapons handicaps you at best, and is a venture into fantasy at worst. Why defend your life from a weak point?

Quote:
I do remember a student, once, who was fascinated by guns and double-edged knives. He wanted me to teach him the techniques from Mike Echanis' book on knife fighting since it looked exactly like what I do except with a knife in each hand. He wanted to go to the military and go kill people in South America. I declined to teach him any further. Years later, after a stint in the Army, he was approached at an ATM by a guy with a gun. He drew his 9mm and shot the fellow in the leg. The robber dropped to the ground and shot upward, shooting my old student through the heart. The guy who had built his life around weapons ran several yards before falling dead.
This is a tragic story, but I don't understand it's point. If the point is "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword", I understand where you are coming from, but I don't see how it applies to Aikido training. Ueshiba was VERY interested in swords and guns. He fought in wars, and likely killed people. While he learned the horrors of this lifestyle, he still understood the truth of weapons. This if very likely why he wanted to end violence and fighting in the world, an point I agree with. But none of this changes the fact that grabbing someone's wrist is important if they are using a weapon on you. And if you ever find yourself in the horrible situation of having to defend your life, and someone attempts to control your weapon hand, you must quickly clear it; or better yet use the weapon hand to lead them to a position where they can't grab it.

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That line of thinking is mistaken and misguided and it's best abandoned before it leads you into worse mistakes.
I'm not sure where you are going with this either.

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Old 02-20-2011, 10:57 PM   #57
David Orange
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If someone is holding your wrist for dear life (which is the case if you are armed and fighting them) it IS NOT easy to make them let go. It's VERY difficult.

If you grab the wrist correctly, a knife cannot cut you. If you don't know how to grab a wrist, than it can be easy. Here's a video from my website showing the right way to grab a wrist:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=253

If you grab the swords man's wrist before he can draw his sword, and you continue to hold it (non transitory wrist grab), you can keep him from drawing his sword, thus keeping him from cutting you in half. If he manages to draw his sword anyways, and you keep hold of the wrist, you can move your body with the cuts (having the wrist slows him, and quickly tells you where he is going with the cut) and try to keep him from cutting you in half. Dealing with someone with a weapon is ridiculously difficult, but having control of his weapon hand is your best chance. As the guy with the weapon (Aikido syllabus) the wrist grab cost you, time, effort, and control. The ability to quickly defeat the wrist grab is of the utmost importance.
I'm afraid your aikido is as unfinished and cluttered as your dojo is, Chris. You're operating in a real fantasy land if you think you can hold a man that way and avoid being cut by either a knife or a sword but it's clear you won't learn. Good luck to you and God have mercy on your students.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 02-20-2011, 11:22 PM   #58
graham christian
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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I'm afraid your aikido is as unfinished and cluttered as your dojo is, Chris. You're operating in a real fantasy land if you think you can hold a man that way and avoid being cut by either a knife or a sword but it's clear you won't learn. Good luck to you and God have mercy on your students.

David
That's a bit harsh. However I checked out the video and didn't like what I saw. When someone holds as described it may be hard to turn a knife blade but it makes it easy to escape the hold. Plus if it was a sword---Oh dear!

Regards.G.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:47 PM   #59
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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I checked out the video and didn't like what I saw. When someone holds as described it may be hard to turn a knife blade but it makes it easy to escape the hold.

Regards.G.
We train regularly against each other non compliantly. This is the most secure way that I am aware of to grab someone.

David,
Please refrain from making personal attacks. This thread will end up degenerating very quickly.

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Old 02-21-2011, 12:04 AM   #60
graham christian
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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We train regularly against each other non compliantly. This is the most secure way that I am aware of to grab someone.

David,
Please refrain from making personal attacks. This thread will end up degenerating very quickly.
Chris. I don't doubt your sincerity. I ask you to do one thing though. Next time the person grabs your wrist/back of base of palm as you describe change your purpose. Have as your purpose to remove your hand. I am 100% certain you'll find it easier than if he was holding the wrist beyond the wrist joint.

Your mention of non compliently is a word all too frequently used on these forums in my view for of course he's being complient by holding the way you instruct him to. Even a boxer sparring is being complient by sticking to the agreed rules of boxing.

Anyway my intention is not to make you wrong or to argue so I'll bow out.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:16 AM   #61
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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Chris. I don't doubt your sincerity. I ask you to do one thing though. Next time the person grabs your wrist/back of base of palm as you describe change your purpose. Have as your purpose to remove your hand. I am 100% certain you'll find it easier than if he was holding the wrist beyond the wrist joint.

Your mention of non compliently is a word all too frequently used on these forums in my view for of course he's being complient by holding the way you instruct him to. Even a boxer sparring is being complient by sticking to the agreed rules of boxing.

Anyway my intention is not to make you wrong or to argue so I'll bow out.

Regards.G.
Graham,
The video you are watching is a demonstration. He is grabbing compliantly to demonstrate this technique. If you'd like to see some of our non compliant stuff, check out our youtube page.

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Old 02-21-2011, 08:25 AM   #62
David Orange
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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That's a bit harsh. However I checked out the video and didn't like what I saw. When someone holds as described it may be hard to turn a knife blade but it makes it easy to escape the hold. Plus if it was a sword---Oh dear!
I hate to see a "kamiza" built of concrete blocks occupying the mat area. The unfinished walls also lend a sense of "hollowness" that Chris reinforces with a lot of the kind of thing you describe. Grabbing higher up the arm may appear to provide some measure of distance from the knife but it also provides quite a distance between the grasper's thumb and fingers, making escape that much easier. It looks good when your personal uke is making those ineffectual "struggling" actions, but in reality, the knife-wielder's arm will be free in an instant, making not only the defender's arm but his torso, abodomen and throat all easy to attack. And for that reason, I seriously worry for the students (that and the concrete blocks and wooden planks in the mat area).

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 02-21-2011, 09:40 AM   #63
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

Personal decor aside,

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Grabbing higher up the arm may appear to provide some measure of distance from the knife but it also provides quite a distance between the grasper's thumb and fingers, making escape that much easier.
Are you talking about my video here? I'm recommending grabbing lower on the arm. Maybe I'm miss understanding you.

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Old 02-21-2011, 04:31 PM   #64
David Orange
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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Are you talking about my video here? I'm recommending grabbing lower on the arm. Maybe I'm miss understanding you.
Yes. You showed both ways of grabbing. Either is easily broken and neither protects you from being seriously wounded (unless the attacker is the someone who trained with you, I suppose...).

Mochizuki Sensei never performed techniques by letting uke hold onto his wrist. Whenever grabbed, his response was always to break uke's grip and re-grasp uke with a twisting grip to turn the arm one way or the other for a technique.

And grabbing the hand that's drawing the sword really could only buy you an instant (less than a second) before the slicing and dicing would commence.

David

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Old 02-21-2011, 05:23 PM   #65
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

David,
I only showed one way to grab the wrist. It was a low grab, done at the wrist joint. I recommended not holding high on the arm.

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Old 02-21-2011, 06:02 PM   #66
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Mochizuki Sensei never performed techniques by letting uke hold onto his wrist. Whenever grabbed, his response was always to break uke's grip and re-grasp uke with a twisting grip to turn the arm one way or the other for a technique.
Nigirigaeshi. He never trusted a technique without having a hold on uke. And that's a good drift in this thread, me thinks.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:57 PM   #67
David Orange
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
David,
I only showed one way to grab the wrist. It was a low grab, done at the wrist joint. I recommended not holding high on the arm.
You would be welcome to hold my wrist in any way you liked and you could not prevent my cutting you with that kind of knife as you demonstrate. And I doubt really that you could prevent anyone from cutting you as you demonstrate--except, again, perhaps someone you had trained to be ineffectual.

But the primary point you're pushing is backward.

The guy with a knife, coming to attack (and therefore needing to be stopped) is, by aikido definition, uke. The aikidoka is centered within himself (or herself) and does not go out and attack--except to "attack the attack" as Mochizuki Sensei put it.

The unarmed person being attacked or grabbed is the aikidoka.

Look at this video of an actual abduction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJoID7VwRtM

That is a real example of a real wrist-grabbing attack of the kind that happens every day in the real world. Do you think the attacker grabbed the girl to stop her from using a knife she was holding? Of course not. And this video shows exactly the scenario on which aikido is based, regardless of what you imagine the samurai did.

I trained both my daughters to respond to that kind of attack when they were much younger than that child, and my son was responding to such attacks in aikido demonstrations when he was four years old. If I could have spent half an hour with the little girl in the video before that guy grabbed her, the outcome would have been entirely different. She could easily have turned his grab into yonkyo, shiho nage or gyakute seioi nage, maybe throwing him or maybe just giving her the chance to run.

But what would be the relevance of confusing the matter with relating the attacker's grab with somehow stopping her from using a knife or "drawing a sword"? That kind of abstract imagination isn't even useful for adults.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 02-21-2011 at 07:04 PM.

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Old 02-21-2011, 07:43 PM   #68
graham christian
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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David Orange wrote: View Post
You would be welcome to hold my wrist in any way you liked and you could not prevent my cutting you with that kind of knife as you demonstrate. And I doubt really that you could prevent anyone from cutting you as you demonstrate--except, again, perhaps someone you had trained to be ineffectual.

But the primary point you're pushing is backward.

The guy with a knife, coming to attack (and therefore needing to be stopped) is, by aikido definition, uke. The aikidoka is centered within himself (or herself) and does not go out and attack--except to "attack the attack" as Mochizuki Sensei put it.

The unarmed person being attacked or grabbed is the aikidoka.

Look at this video of an actual abduction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJoID7VwRtM

That is a real example of a real wrist-grabbing attack of the kind that happens every day in the real world. Do you think the attacker grabbed the girl to stop her from using a knife she was holding? Of course not. And this video shows exactly the scenario on which aikido is based, regardless of what you imagine the samurai did.

I trained both my daughters to respond to that kind of attack when they were much younger than that child, and my son was responding to such attacks in aikido demonstrations when he was four years old. If I could have spent half an hour with the little girl in the video before that guy grabbed her, the outcome would have been entirely different. She could easily have turned his grab into yonkyo, shiho nage or gyakute seioi nage, maybe throwing him or maybe just giving her the chance to run.

But what would be the relevance of confusing the matter with relating the attacker's grab with somehow stopping her from using a knife or "drawing a sword"? That kind of abstract imagination isn't even useful for adults.

David
David,
I don't disagree with the fact that in most cases it's quite easy to escape a static wrist grab with just a little technical knowledge and no panic. Then even to use it as in Aikido to do a technique. That's all well and good.

However I don't agree with your view about if anyone grabbed your wrist when you're holding a knife that you would simply do whatever. I understand, I think, you get this from the view of Aikido not tracing back to days of the samurai and so you don't see the reason for practicing from that view maybe. ie: grabbing the wrist of someone holding a knife etc. (correct me if I'm wrong)

I do lot's of practice of doing this kind of thing don't you?

Regards.G.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:10 PM   #69
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

David,
With all due respect, that girl just walked along with him. That was not a wrist attack, he held her wrist and walked her away. The girl in the video made no attempt to resist. I don't see how this helps your argument.

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Old 02-22-2011, 07:15 AM   #70
David Orange
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
However I don't agree with your view about if anyone grabbed your wrist when you're holding a knife that you would simply do whatever. I understand, I think, you get this from the view of Aikido not tracing back to days of the samurai and so you don't see the reason for practicing from that view maybe. ie: grabbing the wrist of someone holding a knife etc. (correct me if I'm wrong)

I do lot's of practice of doing this kind of thing don't you?
Ghraham,

If I can escape from a wrist grab when I'm unarmed, why would it be different if I'm holding a knife? I can let him hold on and still cut his arm in various ways, but I'd also be moving in toward him with a view to the major targets of the body, the throat, the eyes, etc.

Of course aikido harks back to samurai days, but there is no precedent for nage having a knife against an unarmed attacker.

Now if uke has a knife, of course it's very dangerous, but nage's only hope (the same as with a sword attack) is to avoid with the body, parry the knife hand and seize with an inward or outward twisting motion leading to techniques such as yonkyo or shiho nage.

I'm just saying that in the demo Chris showed, exactly as he showed it, his grip would not prevent uke's slicing his arm up.

Best wishes.

David

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Old 02-22-2011, 07:18 AM   #71
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

I think we are starting to over-inflate the concept of the wrist grab.
1. Neither cosa dori nor katate dori (how we do it) are great against a knife. You need to use the pinkie and ring fingers to compress and lock the wrist joint to prevent nage from rotating the wrist; not many people grab that way. Then you need to apply a (rotational) pressure that runs to uke's center and locks out the elbow and shoulder to prevent either joint from rotating. Most of us just grab the hand and let it dangle in front of our...er... center?
2. Wrist grabs are more about controlling balance and center than they are about controlling the arm. Lock up the arm (like a chain rotated to compress the links) and that becomes a handle to control center and balance. Let a good judo player, wrestler, karate person grab you and "breaking" their grip ain't so easy. Don't even get me started on a good aikido person or DRA person. Some of the good aikido people can grab you and prevent you from doing anything. Just when you thought your tenkan was good...

I would not advocate escaping a good grab is easy. Katate dori and cosa dori are good dojo attacks and when done properly require nage to correctly move to escape. I think we have become far too comfortable with an uke that grabs your wrist and expects to be thrown. The purpose of ukewaza (in aikido) is to create a structure that requires nage to correctly move; if uke sets up a proeper structure and nage correctly moves against that structure, uke can resolve the the movement/technique. If you start ukewaza with a poor attack uke sets up a poor structure for nage.
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Old 02-22-2011, 07:34 AM   #72
David Orange
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
David,
With all due respect, that girl just walked along with him. That was not a wrist attack, he held her wrist and walked her away. The girl in the video made no attempt to resist. I don't see how this helps your argument.
His first step was to approach her. Then he grabbed her wrist. I understand he showed her a knife and it scared her so badly that she didn't resist even after he put the knife away.

But the fact is that his primary attack was a wrist grab. And the attacker had the knife. Not the defender.

But let's go further. Can you show me one example of O Sensei's having a knife or sword against an unarmed attacker?

I don't think so.

I know that I have seen countless examples of O Sensei unarmed facing 1) sword; 2) knife; 3) multiple attackers.

I've also seen O Sensei with a sword when and only when 1) he was alone; 2) when the attacker also had a sword or spear.

I've seen O Sensei demonstrate 1) sword against sword; 2) jo against sword; 3) fan against sword (and maybe fan against spear or juken).

But I've never seen O Sensei demonstrate armed against un unarmed attacker (except possibly fan against unarmed). Mostly, it's O Sensei unarmed against sword or unarmed opponents.

So to lend any validity to your claim, you need to show at least one example of O Sensei's using a knife or sword against an unarmed attacker.

As to a theoretical koryu link to aikido's reason for practicing against a wrist grab, I'd have to ask you to be specific and explain where the link is.

I'd say that Mochizuki Sensei probably had more technical koryu and general weapons experience than any student of Morihei Ueshiba except his old pal Yoshio Sugino. They both trained extensively in katori shinto ryu and both continued this throughout their lives. I trained thousands of hours in Mochizuki Sensei's form of TSKSR and saw his relation of sword and other weapons to aikido. Of course, this was not O Sensei's method of sword, which was not koryu but his own development; but, as much as Mochizuki Sensei related aikido to sword, he never put any emphasis on grabbing a swordsman's arm to prevent his drawing the sword. It seems that that little explanation is a very tenuous attempt to link modern aikido to the samurai.

It has about as much relevance as trying to explain our love of pizza as a vestige of having once had gills, when our ancestors supposedly lived in the ocean.

I think your aikido will improve quite a bit when you let go of that theoritical imagination and start dealing with human life in the real world.

David

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Old 02-22-2011, 08:26 AM   #73
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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David Orange wrote: View Post
....

Of course aikido harks back to samurai days, but there is no precedent for nage having a knife against an unarmed attacker.

David
I've seen plenty of techniques demonstrated with an armed nage. All sorts of ushiro variations that make no sense at all unless nage has some sort of weapon. I don't think you have a good point here.

Regards,
Mark
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Old 02-22-2011, 08:37 AM   #74
David Orange
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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I've seen plenty of techniques demonstrated with an armed nage. All sorts of ushiro variations that make no sense at all unless nage has some sort of weapon. I don't think you have a good point here.
I won't discount the value of aikido in weapons retention but Chris asserts that the reason the wrist grab even exists in aikido is to prevent an armed nage from attacking uke, which is really backward.

But who have you seen demonstrating these methods and can you post some link? Also, please describe anything in aikido unarmed technique that only makes sense if understood as involving weapons?

Extra points if it's O Sensei or one of his major deshi.

Best to you.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 02-22-2011 at 08:50 AM.

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Old 02-22-2011, 08:45 AM   #75
David Orange
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Re: Really, grab my wrist!

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Let a good judo player, wrestler, karate person grab you and "breaking" their grip ain't so easy. Don't even get me started on a good aikido person or DRA person. Some of the good aikido people can grab you and prevent you from doing anything. Just when you thought your tenkan was good...
As Alejandro noted above, our Sensei emphasized always breaking the grip as the first thing. Then re-grab the grabber and apply as you describe. Mochizuki Sensei developed a full set of escapes for every kind of wrist grab, arm grab, shoulder grab, choke, bear hug, waist hug, etc.

A truly mighty and crushing grip is important for developing aikido and anytime someone gives me an excellent grip, I'm glad for it. But not many people can actually do what Chris demonstrates on his video. Very few would last half a second without serious wounding.

And, again, the main reason the wrist grab exists in aikido is that it's a very common attack against an unarmed person--not because the samurai may have once used it that way. Otherwise, we'd have to explain how a bear hug was used to prevent nage's drawing his sword, or how a rear two-shoulder grab was developed for the same reason. Second, working from a wrist grab is the easiest way to develop the reversals and general mechanics that will apply to all other uses of a technique, including strikes and the more general body controls such as bear hugs, waist hugs or chokes.

Of course, any attack could be related in theory to controling an armed samurai, but I note that thousands of people have learned to do the techniques without that in mind and at the dojo where I trained in Japan, such an explanation was never used--especially for teaching.

Best to you.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 02-22-2011 at 08:49 AM.

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