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Old 02-18-2011, 09:51 AM   #101
DH
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Re: Future of Aikido

Good Grief
There is no precise usage of the terms in Chinese arts either. Attempting to highjack terminology as "precise definitions" is just plain ignorant of the Chinese community at large. There has been so many arguments among students and even, master class people about all sorts of terms and movements, even to the point of some madter class people correcting the teaching of other master class people and openly stating THEY didn't get it. All while quoting the "classics" (compare it to Takeda/ Sagawa/Ueshiba in the aiki arts arguing about the term, aiki).
For any single person to say "All agree to this precise definition of this or that" is utter nonsense. It's easy to do in private discusions with rank beginners- where are all the experts in these discussions who agree and will step up and debate and vet these opinions?

Again I don't really care, but I do think the Japanese community should put some of this rhetoric into proper perspective. There is just as much, if not more, arguing among the Chinese artists.on terms and precise definitions. We've seen this all before
It's no different than some Japanese artists trying to control the definition of aiki. Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba... none of them agreed to some precise definition. Imagine some noob showing up and telling you "Everyone in the Japanese arts agrees this is what aiki is!"
You can have your opinion, you can be very good. You can be Sagawa...it still doesn't make that statement true or factual. At the end of the day, all most certainly do NOT agree.

As this thread has pointed out there are some great teachers out there sharing right now. Some avoid the typical catch phrases alltogether. Since people go to seminars, I strongly suggest people get out and feel a good cross section of the teachers mentioned in this thread and see what they have. While it is good to be careful of misteps..keep in mind that includes following individuals who try to convince you so much that they are the only ones who can help you avoid them.
The future of aikido is not so easily defined or mapped out. These are VERY interesting times, I would encourage people to join in and explore.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-18-2011 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:08 AM   #102
Keith Larman
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Re: Future of Aikido

The first time I saw silk reeling I immediately flashed on Futari Sayu Kaeshi-lkkyo. How's that for terminology... Hmmm, another way to approach and teach the technique.

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Old 02-18-2011, 10:23 AM   #103
DH
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
The first time I saw silk reeling I immediately flashed on Futari Sayu Kaeshi-lkkyo. How's that for terminology... Hmmm, another way to approach and teach the technique.
And therein lies the rub.
Personal experience: Not having any experience in taiji nor claiming to, I was shown a certain outer movement by an Chinese expert in the field. I didn't pay allot of attention to the outer form as it matched some things I knew from a Japanese art-which sure as hell was not driven by the outer form. Teacher comes over again, watches....puts his hands all over my middle and asks "No taiji?" The tells me I am doing *chansi jin* It wasn't because of my outer form. Had a repeat a year later, though more in depth. They applied terms to something from a different cultures art.
Now I compare that to friends from that art who were...uhm...not doing the same things as me...on the inside. So where would we presumably be getting this alleged consensus to what is supposed to be being done in a form?
Cheers
Dan
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:26 AM   #104
phitruong
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Re: Future of Aikido

silk reeling is only good for making silk pajamas and bed sheets. however, combining the two, silk pajamas and bed sheets, often lead to extreme ukemi which might ruin the harmony and loving feeling that you have in mind with your mate (don't ask me how i know). so there is no future in such thing. in conclusion, there is no future for silk reeling in aikido.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:00 AM   #105
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Good Grief
There is no precise usage of the terms in Chinese arts either.
This is exactly what I mean. There is a precise definition of "reeling silk" in that it is a way of practicing Six Harmonies movement. The Six Harmonies movement involves the 3 internal harmonies and the 3 external harmonies. Everyone's pet, ad hoc definition isn't valid and a lot of peoples' guesses are not as valid as everyone else's. In the same sense, people can't just come up with their own definition of "aiki" with no comparison to the original way it was used, and so on.

My point had more to do along the lines of the early UFC's where they made a big deal out of "Joe Blow is a 3rd degree blackbelt in Aikido" (or some other art like Silat, Hung Gar, whatever) and yet when you see what they do, it has nothing to do with the named art except in their own imagination and role playing. In terms of Aikido and the future of it, it's perfectly legitimate if someone claims to be doing "silk reeling" or some other buzzword to ask them to explain it. To just dumbly nod without anything going through the head but fleecy clouds is to ask for trouble. The idea that anyone can assert anything publicly and that no one is allowed to ask questions is a sure sign of trouble in an art.

Any discussion about a 'future' should allow for critical and specific questioning (not some of these "I demand you explain this" absurdities to crop up occasionally on the forum).

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:53 AM   #106
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
keep in mind that includes following individuals who try to convince you so much that they are the only ones who can help you avoid them.
I keep hearing about such individuals.... can you provide us with a quote, please? Or is this just another oblique personal shot? I.e..... for once how about staying on topic.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:22 PM   #107
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
............it's perfectly legitimate if someone claims to be doing "silk reeling" or some other buzzword to ask them to explain it. To just dumbly nod without anything going through the head but fleecy clouds is to ask for trouble. The idea that anyone can assert anything publicly and that no one is allowed to ask questions is a sure sign of trouble in an art.
Good Grief!!
I am expressing my reaction to a process I was ask to do last Saturday and from my limited experiences it reminds me of silk reeling and as a partner practice similar to push hands. The purpose of the solo practice and the paired practice, both prior to working into a technique were relaxed integrated movement and keeping this while working with a partner and then keeping this as we went on to do a technique utilizing the outer movement. I have practiced on a very limited basis both both silk reeling and push hands....make no claims to having any skill or more than a limited understand of either. I do know that if I say silk reeling most, even on a forum that is Aikido based, folks will get a ready image of what I am talking to. I guess I could have taken a lot of time to explain what was going on, but that is not me. Frank made no reference to silk reeling and only mentioned push hands and Tai Chi as a contributing source of what he was having us do. It was my place to go with it.......... T

Quote:
Any discussion about a 'future' should allow for critical and specific questioning (not some of these "I demand you explain this" absurdities to crop up occasionally on the forum).
If critical and specific questioning is going to be directed by name at individuals I am having no part of it. Actually discussion of this nature are best conducted in small groups between people who know each other...or at least have respect for each other. Otherwise they will all end badly. The future of Aikido is already moving along a number of paths whose outcomes none are dependent upon critical discussions on this or other forums...outcomes are dependent for the most part upon how much change and evolution is present in the individuals involved or on how clear these folks are about staying exactly where they are now.

Gary.....
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:25 PM   #108
Diana Frese
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Re: Future of Aikido

I know I mentioned this in another thread, but "The Professor" Chen Man-Ching's student Lou Kleinsmith was an assistant instructor at NY Aikikai.

His original background was judo, I believe, so he knew three martial arts. His picture was in a judo book as one of the participants , he taught class regularly at NY Aikikai and he also taught class as an assistant to "The Professor." The Tai Chi students simply called the place where Chen Man-Ching taught "downtown" .

Yamada Sensei was the chief instructor at NY Aikikai and he had several "senpais" (thought we didn't know the word.) help teach us. And Sensei knew Lou studied Tai Chi. One time he teased us while assisting as Tohei Koichi Sensei was teaching a technique based on the famous "relax completely" principle.

"What are you doing, Tai Chi?" he said mischievously watching us as we tried to copy what had been shown.

Although this was many years ago, it shows that at one time several students went to both places. The Tai Chi people even put a notice on the Aikikai bulletin board inviting us to watch a class, because they knew some of us were curious.

About Lou, I especially remember how he did ikkyo ura. He had the arm and he just walked behind uke holding uke's arm loosely with his own arms relaxed and just put the arm on the ground.
That's what he told us, just put the arm on the ground. His posture was perfectly well balanced, there was no strain and it was effective.

Through our minds went the thought, "How did he do that, it looked so easy." I'm sure most of you know what was going on, but back then we just thought it was a good way to learn to do ikkyo ura. Those tai chi people were always telling us to relax. But they were also aikido people.

Push hands was another thing to our minds, however and it was quite an experience to be on the receiving end of that, when someone dropped their center and with non stiff arms splatted us against the wall with our shoulders aiming towards imaginary clothespins on an imaginary clothesline.it seems to me now. They had fun doing that to us outside of Aikido class, I'm not sure they ever tried it in the dojo after class. I don't remember being splatted against the dojo walls by them...( That was one way to be reminded by friends to keep one point, but theirs were lower at least lower than mine, and my best friend took tai chi and decided to share that part with me....)

Yes there was some sharing and some cross training going on. Some of us actually tried the forms for a few months but it was hard keeping two training schedules.

One funny thing I remember from seeing the film of the Professor, Sudden recognition. Although he had gray hair and a little gray beard he was almost skipping through some of the movements. He seemed to be almost laughing, like a kid, "lookit what I'm doing, it's fun."

(Lou had a kind of mysterious smile, too, a bit similar, but totally American.)

You may not believe this next, but I have to tell it. One day quite some time before the visit "downtown" to see what our friends were practicing, I was riding on the West Side IRT or IND or something, I forget which one. I saw a gray haired Chinese gentleman laughing at me.

This was disconcerting, because at the time Bob Newhart had already come out with the record about looking in the mirror and finding out he had been walking around in public with a bit of spinach in his front teeth. I checked, I had no spinach. And my clothes seemed to be average.

This was in the back of my mind and bothered me until the invitation by my Tai Chi friends. What a relief to know he might have just been quietly laughing to himself and not at me.

Funny stories aside, I just wanted to contribute something about sharing from the Chinese arts way back in the sixties.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:25 PM   #109
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Re: Future of Aikido

so it goes:

MS says define silk reeling
DH says there isn't a single agreed on definition
next
MS will say suspect all those who can't define the simplest concepts. I can, but I won't.
DH will say How come you talk the talk only up to point, never mind not being able to walk the walk
MS will say beware those bearing jin tricks
DH will tell us he has 42 pairs of stretch socks
MS will say that is irrelevant
Phi will make a lascivious joke about stretch socks and "the suit"
Chris Hein will say that you can find perfectly adequate stretch socks within aikido
DH will ask what could "a kid" know about stretch socks
MS will point out that the Chinese invented stretch socks, they just called them "peng" because of the smell
etc.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:34 PM   #110
Diana Frese
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Re: Future of Aikido

Thanks Gary, I can't claim to understand everything on this thread but I just added some personal memories to show some sharing also occurred decades ago. So it was nice you posted while I was writing my lengthy recollections something I had been curious about while skimming in and out of the thread from time to time looking to understand some of the things mentioned.

Now I can re read, and have a better idea of silk reeling since you mention it is similar to push hands. It is helpful for those of us with not much background in Chinese Arts to have these similarities to keep in mind.

Thanks again for helping.

Last edited by Diana Frese : 02-18-2011 at 12:36 PM. Reason: corrected a word
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:50 PM   #111
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
Diana Frese wrote: View Post
.

Now I can re read, and have a better idea of silk reeling since you mention it is similar to push hands. It is helpful for those of us with not much background in Chinese Arts to have these similarities to keep in mind.

Thanks again for helping.
Hello Diane,

Here are a couple of videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eltVM5A89lM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoeFpsujqU4

dps
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:56 PM   #112
Diana Frese
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Re: Future of Aikido

Hi Patrick, I was correcting my post when you posted, so yes, I will go back and see what MS and DH were saying about silk reeling.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:00 PM   #113
Diana Frese
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Re: Future of Aikido

Hi David, this sure is an active topic with overlapping posts. Great!
Thanks for the links. I will study them this evening, I have to go out now. My husband took kung fu and is interested in any similarities between tai chi and aikido, so it should be interesting to watch it together tonite or over the weekend. Thanks again.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:04 PM   #114
Mike Sigman
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Those would be good examples of pro's and con's, too. Knowing *what* silk-reeling is would be handy for people to know, in principle, rather than just looking at some outward set of movements and saying "this is an example of silk reeling". In other words, people need to ask questions rather than just "Oh, so that's what silk reeling looks like... we do something that looks like it in class, so we have that part of it covered". In terms of the 'future of Aikido', it's easy to see how that can go astray.

If someone wants to leave it at "well, all definitions of 'silk reeling' are OK because opinions vary among different teachers', then we're back to Mary Eastland's argument and she's right. Whatever she wants to call "internal strength" is just as valid as whatever Dan is talking about, Ushiro is talking about, Joe Blow is talking about, and so on. If all opinions are valid and no one wants to say "Billy Bob's opinion is wrong and here's why", then basically the future of Aikido is going to be pretty much what the present is.

In terms of what Doran Sensei is teaching, I haven't seen it (I'll check YouTube), and my comment was more that I'd like to see it (if someone will read my post... it's still there). Actual reeling-silk would be valid for Aikido (can be logically demonstrated as a fact), but a loose use of the term "reeling silk" just leaves the usual vague questions and assertions floating around. I.e., buzzword talk.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:44 PM   #115
Gary David
 
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Re: Future of Aikido

Mike
Frank Doran is not teaching silk reeling or push hands, he is just framing his approach, at least this one time that I was with him, using some solo practice and pair practice that does a better job of preparing folks for a less muscular approach to the technique. There are a lot of people in Aikido that are capable of what I think you would call muscular jing. This to me is a step away from that. As for Frank himself he has always been a model for me and one of those I consider having had impact on my art.

Gary
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:44 PM   #116
dps
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Re: Future of Aikido

Hi Diana.

I have found Bagua / Pakua has more similarities than tai chi.

dps
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Old 02-18-2011, 05:23 PM   #117
Diana Frese
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Re: Future of Aikido

We will try to check that out, thanks. I guess I have always been curious about these topics, and it reminds me of a question I asked an assistant of mine who had studied Shorinji Kenpo I think it was. (Someone affirmed on another thread that Shorinji means Shaolin in Japanese but I don't know if I knew that fact at the time)

Anyway I mentioned to him that I thought Karate was linear. I didn't know much about karate either at the time. And he seemed to be picking up on the circular stuff in class.

He answered " Shorinji Kenpo is Japanese people trying to do Chinese things."

He didn't mean it to be disrespectful to either the Chinese or Japanese martial arts, he was just trying to answer my question in a simplistic way I could understand!

(He was great with beginners by the way, he said " Wheels roll, boxes don't," when I was trying to show how to curve the elbow and arm and hand and the diagonal from shoulder to opposite hip)

Lots of depth of study available on various types of Chinese martial arts among the people on Aiki Web. Fascinating. Thanks, I appreciate it and my husband will too.
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Old 02-19-2011, 08:15 AM   #118
jonreading
 
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Re: Future of Aikido

I think that necessarily we need to consolidate some of our terminolgy and better define those terms. For some reason aikido has avoided the codification process. I guess because its more art than science or whatever the excuse. At some point we need to press eachother to better define what we are doing and why.

The instructors I appreciate most can both do aikido, and explain it. Its become cliche now, but Einstein's quote about explanation is very true. I think some of us have become more armchair and less quarterback. I think it reasonable for students to A. Expect an instructor to comptetently demonstrate aikido and B. Expect an instructor to competently explain the demonstration. I would argue that we have many instructors out their spreading aikido they do not understand, or aikido they cannot do. And to be clear, I think that this is not bad because it is part of the learning process to explore what you do not understand. However, we need to set some precedent of expectation when we will "get it".

Again, I think some of these issues come from pushing aikido people into the real world. What would happen is a karate instructor could provide a better explanantion for aikido than we could? I have a couple of decent judo books that cover many aikido pricniples better and aikido books that talk about the same principles. In fact, an important personal discovery for me came from reading a judo lesson from Mifune Sensei. How does our instruction stack up against other arts? How can we trash talk that neanderthal UFC guy when his coach can not only hand us our lunch, but he is better at explaining what is going on. Dang.

Mike has a point about our precision. Sometimes we are over vague in our aikido. Am I doing tenkan? Or, am I doing ushiro ayumi ashi tenkai? Similar movement, but two different things. Am I extending palm up? or palm down? We need to be prepared not only to assert a preference of movement but also a reason why. I believe this is most important because I believe the deep parts of aikido (the "ura") are in the "why" of the technique. How can you learn bunkai if you don't care why you are doing the kata? How can you learn kaishiwaza if you don't care why your structure is compromised?

Last edited by jonreading : 02-19-2011 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:54 AM   #119
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Re: Future of Aikido

Read through the thread, just got confused that a lot of Aikido people here visited and learnt from many outside Aikido arts to pursue the true Aikido but nobody ever mentioned Ki-Aikido and Koichi Tohei's teaching, as if they never exist in the Aikido world.

Here is a thought-provoking article by a master who is outside of Aikido, Mike Sigman sensei. http://www.aikidojournal.com/blog/20...y-mike-sigman/
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:54 PM   #120
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
My point had more to do along the lines of the early UFC's where they made a big deal out of "Joe Blow is a 3rd degree blackbelt in Aikido" (or some other art like Silat, Hung Gar, whatever) and yet when you see what they do, it has nothing to do with the named art except in their own imagination and role playing. In terms of Aikido and the future of it, it's perfectly legitimate if someone claims to be doing "silk reeling" or some other buzzword to ask them to explain it. To just dumbly nod without anything going through the head but fleecy clouds is to ask for trouble. The idea that anyone can assert anything publicly and that no one is allowed to ask questions is a sure sign of trouble in an art.

Any discussion about a 'future' should allow for critical and specific questioning
(not some of these "I demand you explain this" absurdities to crop up occasionally on the forum).

Mike Sigman
Bold mine.

Mike's response when asked to explain silk reeling:

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So my recommendation is to stick with absolute kokyu/breathing basics and branch out into techniques and applications only after the basics have been truly ingrained.

Mike Sigman
Does Mike know silk reeling? Let's see what he says:

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Someone misunderstanding exactly what is being practiced/conditioned in the breathing (and related) exercises is going to blow the reeling-silk exercises (or misunderstand what is being talked about) and is going to have some wrong idea about "moving from the hara", in addition. I.e., these things are easily misunderstood without a common dialogue established in person. Most of the people I see nowadays who are "using internal strength" are still moving from the shoulders, etc., which means all the talk about 'silk reeling', 'breathing exercises', 'hara', etc., is actually something else and the terminologies are getting crossed.

As always, "these things are 'easy to learn' but difficult to correct". Mike Sigman
and

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
This is exactly what I mean. There is a precise definition of "reeling silk" in that it is a way of practicing Six Harmonies movement. The Six Harmonies movement involves the 3 internal harmonies and the 3 external harmonies. Everyone's pet, ad hoc definition isn't valid and a lot of peoples' guesses are not as valid as everyone else's. In the same sense, people can't just come up with their own definition of "aiki" with no comparison to the original way it was used, and so on.

Mike Sigman
It seems fairly straight forward that he does. Then why hedge on explaining it? What is silk reeling? After all, "it's perfectly legitimate if someone claims to be doing "silk reeling" or some other buzzword to ask them to explain it. " If Mike stays true to form, it'll either be silence or a turn-around asking the poster to explain it.

Speaking of explaining, how about explaining knowing what Ueshiba's breathing practices were and what Ueshiba's traditional system was in regards to kokyu? Especially considering most of Ueshiba's students had a very hard time understanding what Ueshiba was doing, let alone recreating those skills. Bold below is my addition:

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
In other words there's a trick to getting hold of and conditioning the right things. Although Tohei and Ueshiba were careful to delineate this problem by insisting on very relaxed breathing practices, my personal opinion is that they would have helped a lot more people if they'd been further explicit than just saying "relax".

Kokyu, hara, ki/breath/suit, all together is not really a difficult idea to conceptually grasp, but to implement it is pretty hard because it means changing the way the body moves and breathes. Well, of course I referring to the traditional system that Ueshiba seemed to subscribe to, not other approaches.

2 cents.

Mike
Remember, "it's perfectly legitimate if someone claims to be doing "silk reeling" or some other buzzword to ask them to explain it. "
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Old 02-19-2011, 08:49 PM   #121
gregstec
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
Ting Piao wrote: View Post
Read through the thread, just got confused that a lot of Aikido people here visited and learnt from many outside Aikido arts to pursue the true Aikido but nobody ever mentioned Ki-Aikido and Koichi Tohei's teaching, as if they never exist in the Aikido world.

Here is a thought-provoking article by a master who is outside of Aikido, Mike Sigman sensei. http://www.aikidojournal.com/blog/20...y-mike-sigman/
Some may view this as odd coming from me with all things considered, but overall, good article and on point. Prior to Tohei's split, Ki was an integral part of the teachings in the Aikikai. It is not only prevalent in "This is Aikido", first printing 1968 ( I have an original copy) but also in Kissahomaru's writings before the split as well. Tohei's Ki teachings are an excellent first step to help establish a basic foundation for IS, but, as mentioned by others, it does not go to the next level.

Greg
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:35 PM   #122
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Bold mine.

Mike's response when asked to explain silk reeling:

Does Mike know silk reeling? Let's see what he says:

and

It seems fairly straight forward that he does. Then why hedge on explaining it? What is silk reeling? After all, "it's perfectly legitimate if someone claims to be doing "silk reeling" or some other buzzword to ask them to explain it. " If Mike stays true to form, it'll either be silence or a turn-around asking the poster to explain it.

Speaking of explaining, how about explaining knowing what Ueshiba's breathing practices were and what Ueshiba's traditional system was in regards to kokyu? Especially considering most of Ueshiba's students had a very hard time understanding what Ueshiba was doing, let alone recreating those skills. Bold below is my addition:

Remember, "it's perfectly legitimate if someone claims to be doing "silk reeling" or some other buzzword to ask them to explain it. "
Mark are you trying to further the conversation or are you taking another one of your endless follow-Mike-around shots at me? This is the umpteenth time... you need to figure whether you have some goal in life other than harrassing me.

My point was pretty clear... before people start talking about "reeling silk" the place to start is with breathing techniques. If you don't understand breathing techniques, reeling-silk is a waste of time. Why don't you, for once, tell us what you know as part of the conversation rather than wasting your time with the attempts to smear?

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:51 PM   #123
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I think that necessarily we need to consolidate some of our terminolgy and better define those terms. For some reason aikido has avoided the codification process. I guess because its more art than science or whatever the excuse. At some point we need to press eachother to better define what we are doing and why.

The instructors I appreciate most can both do aikido, and explain it. Its become cliche now, but Einstein's quote about explanation is very true. I think some of us have become more armchair and less quarterback. I think it reasonable for students to A. Expect an instructor to comptetently demonstrate aikido and B. Expect an instructor to competently explain the demonstration. I would argue that we have many instructors out their spreading aikido they do not understand, or aikido they cannot do. And to be clear, I think that this is not bad because it is part of the learning process to explore what you do not understand. However, we need to set some precedent of expectation when we will "get it".

Again, I think some of these issues come from pushing aikido people into the real world. What would happen is a karate instructor could provide a better explanantion for aikido than we could? I have a couple of decent judo books that cover many aikido pricniples better and aikido books that talk about the same principles. In fact, an important personal discovery for me came from reading a judo lesson from Mifune Sensei. How does our instruction stack up against other arts? How can we trash talk that neanderthal UFC guy when his coach can not only hand us our lunch, but he is better at explaining what is going on. Dang.

Mike has a point about our precision. Sometimes we are over vague in our aikido. Am I doing tenkan? Or, am I doing ushiro ayumi ashi tenkai? Similar movement, but two different things. Am I extending palm up? or palm down? We need to be prepared not only to assert a preference of movement but also a reason why. I believe this is most important because I believe the deep parts of aikido (the "ura") are in the "why" of the technique. How can you learn bunkai if you don't care why you are doing the kata? How can you learn kaishiwaza if you don't care why your structure is compromised?
Yep. I've always felt that in Aikido I'm kinda left trying to figure a lot of things out for myself. I have my own vocabulary for describing different body movements I find in techniques. There's nothing in Aikido terminology that actually tells you what you're doing, it just describes an end state i.e shiho nage. But how do you get to shihonage? There's no way, that I know of, of describing techniques and what you actually need to do to perform them.
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:20 PM   #124
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Yep. I've always felt that in Aikido I'm kinda left trying to figure a lot of things out for myself. I have my own vocabulary for describing different body movements I find in techniques. There's nothing in Aikido terminology that actually tells you what you're doing, it just describes an end state i.e shiho nage. But how do you get to shihonage? There's no way, that I know of, of describing techniques and what you actually need to do to perform them.
Actually, just to make a thumbnail response, every physical movement is, or should be, predictable in terms of optimal development. The whole qi/ki thing is extremely logical and comes from, hold your hat, the Yin-Yang dichotomy of body movements. If you look at the basic acupuncture diagram of the body, there is a Yang motion going up the back, in terms of normal direction and power, and there is a Yin motion coming down the front. Ack... there's no way to say this succinctly... but let me just say that I disregarded this logic early in my martial career as being superfluous, but I wound up having to go back and figure all of this out ultimately. Why is there never enough time to do things right the first time, but there's always enough time to re-do the job when you're forced to?

Anyway, there are two basic ways to move and wind the body in terms of optimal strength. This is called "natural movement". All movements can be viewed as derivative variations of these two basic movements. So, for instance, kokyu/jin works optimally in one best way for kokyu-ho dosa, but also the way you respond with wrist/arm twisting to aid the kokyu-ho has an optimal method, also. What I'm getting at is that when you boil it all down there is going to be an optimal response to an opponent's force using not only kokyu, but also body position, so something like shiho-nage, assuming it's an optimal response, should actually be deducible via the ancient cosmology. It's actually a lot more practical than it sounds.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-19-2011, 11:16 PM   #125
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: Future of Aikido

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Yep. I've always felt that in Aikido I'm kinda left trying to figure a lot of things out for myself. I have my own vocabulary for describing different body movements I find in techniques. There's nothing in Aikido terminology that actually tells you what you're doing, it just describes an end state i.e shiho nage. But how do you get to shihonage? There's no way, that I know of, of describing techniques and what you actually need to do to perform them.
Alex, I'm surprised by your comment. NO-one's ever taught you what shihonage is? Is this common?

Regards.G.
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