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Old 02-17-2011, 10:40 AM   #226
Diana Frese
Dojo: Aikikai of S.W. Conn. (formerly)
Location: Stamford Connecticut
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Re: No Touch Throws

My experience in Aikido is rather old, but I just have to say something. Although I've been on hiatus for a long time, I still intend to get back to it. I married someone from another martial art who was also interested in Aikido, but don't get me wrong that wasn't the only reason.... and we have promised to re start training this year more than the occasional of other years.

In the dojo I attended in the late sixties we heard about and saw no touch throws from Tohei Koichi Sensei (one was called Obake Nage or Ghost Throw) who visited and I'm sure there were others.

For example in the late seventies, Hikitsuchi Sensei when he visited NY, New Haven and Washington mentioned techniques where one would not be touched by even one finger of the attacker (kind of a literal translation of the Japanese he used to make the point of the attacker not touching him)

So through the years in Aikido this type of thing was tried from time to time by people I knew even myself occasionally, probably, whether actually no touch I think the concept was the same, I called them informally "instant banana peel" Aikido was always fascinating to me and still is.

I noticed Nobuyuki Watanabe Sensei mentioned earlier in this thread but the You Tube video from I think it was 2006 wouldn't play so I looked on the right sidebar for another one. Last night I played one from 1987 All Japan Expo, I think it was, because Watanabe Sensei was one of my teachers years ago. I took his regular class and also Sunday, you could practice seven days if you paid a little extra for the Sunday.

They were great classes and he had great patience. I was happy to be in a class where the pace was such that I could learn something, because of the timing it wasn't too crowded.

Imagine how I felt seeing the demo and that was made over twenty years ago. Yes the no touch throws are real. I'm not saying I can really do them, but I have to speak up about it.
It's all about leading in that demo. There are other ways, I'm sure but I think the no touch part is just part of Aikido as it is, and as it was always supposed to be. It's what happens in the moment that happens to be appropriate when it happens.

Perhaps someone will agree, take that thought and express it better than I.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:19 PM   #227
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Have you ever actually put your hands on Saotome Sensei? It's like bouncing off a brick wall.

The challenge is to understand how you can *both* be completely soft and non-resistant *and* bounce people as if they've hit a wall. Lots of people can do one or the other; very few can do both.

Katherine
Hi Katherine.
No I have never met Saotome Sensei and he is one of the few I fully agree with judged by what he says.

That explanation of it's like boucing off a wall I fully understand, I have experienced it and students say that to me when I demonstrate what I call Koshi.

In fact I used to get that response especially from other Aikidoka who had done years of Aikido but not much to do with Ki or advanced developement of center. So I put it down to them just needing to practice more center and get more reality on it. However, the times when students said it to me and I then looked to see what it was I was doing that had such a dramatic effect at first had me confused.

All I could see on self inspection was that I was doing 'nothing' and when I did that they said it's like they were running into a brick wall. So at first I could do it but couldn't word or understand exactly what this doing 'nothing' was for it was definitely something to them but FELT like nothing to me.

O.K. So I discovered it's different to center, different to kokyu, different to Hara, and so as I said I found it more to do with Koshi. Having said that then IF you move that AGAINST the opponent then they BOUNCE off.

This looks impressive and dynamic, good. However my perameters in Aikido is there is no against so I don't use it that way if I can find a more harmonious thing to do with it. All the principles are of course interdependant rather than exclusive.

As I've repeatedly stated on this forum I have no interest in anyone who wants to impress or be able to do these type of things so that they can bounce people around, throw people with one finger etc. Even if their purpose is to be able to do to others because 'if someone attacks you then.....' No. Go elsewhere. I only teach who wants to learn how to Harmonize. Self developement.

In my view that is the message given by Saotome, O'Sensei and many great teachers. The fact that it is via doing a martial art is what throws most people and so don't make sense to many but to me it makes it all the more fascinating for you are studying the art of 'no-fighting,' learning the principles of 'no fighting' by putting yourself in an art of fighting. A great test and learning playground.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:20 PM   #228
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Joe,

Tokitsu being japanese, and former student of Nishino, makes him follow the uses of japanese 'politeness' at least in his published writings.

Plus, this is an Aikido forum. Statements about 7th dan Aikido masters have to be done in a very diplomatic fashion.
Demetrio,
I am not specifically relating my comments to this particular blogNeither am I saying that all 7yh /8th dans are suspect.All I am saying is this , use common sense .Nishino s Uke flew away from him.Maybe they were flight pioneers related to Louis Bleriot or Charles Lindbergh?
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:35 PM   #229
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No Touch Throws

Joe,

That is strength, boy! That is power!

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Old 02-18-2011, 03:07 AM   #230
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
That was James Earl Jones an actor .He was imo outclassed as an actor by the Nishino Sensei acrobatic team.Joe.
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:31 AM   #231
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
As Katherine and I noted some years ago in a Mirror column, when you tell people entering the dojo they are special because they are practicing a spiritual art created by a genius it sort of sets up a prediliction for enhanced self-esteem that may not mesh with reality....
http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/themirror/2005_05.html
Att he risk of being OT... that is an excellent article, summing up a lot of important stuff very precisely in just a few paragraphs! Thanks!
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:33 AM   #232
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Yeah, right. Uke is attacking by prearranged attack and you strike him to the throat or a thrust to the eyes. And of course, he has no right to strike you back, to evade/block and counter......
Do you understand what do you propose? :-O

Anyway, I gave example of boxer only to illustrate, that this entire atemi thing to initiate no touch throw is silly and naive. I never thought about real fight context.

Doing action to create reaction is judo principle not aikido.
Dear Szczepan,
Doing an action to create a reaction is a perfectly sound Aikido principle. For example if you break someones balance in one direction, the reaction of uke will be to regain posture iopposite direction.You can use this reaction as a tool .
Also in basic waza you by the nature of you posture etc in a sense creates a condition which determines how uke will respond.
Is this not creating a reaction? Cheers, Joe.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:42 PM   #233
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: No Touch Throws

Couldn't resist putting a bit of reality in here especially for the hard headed macho physical is the answer brigade.

Has anything ever scared you and made you jump? Have you ever seen anyone feint due to something happening? (even the sight of blood for some) Have you ever seen anyone throw themselves or jump out of the way of some perceived danger only to be embarassed when they notice what it was?

Even in boxing you have boxers jumping out of the way or moving, ducking quickly from a perceived threat only to be surprised when they find it was a feint and now theyre knocked out.

I think if you ever see a ghost you'll be gone quick time in more ways than one.

These are all in life examples and yet carry in them the principles which guide this topic.

Now as Aikido is a way of doing this not through fear etc. then I'll leave you with this last question. Ever met a woman(or visa versa for women or....) that made you weak at the knees?

Regards.G.
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Old 02-21-2011, 03:15 PM   #234
Bratislav
 
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Re: No Touch Throws

No touch throws.... This is for suckers

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Old 04-07-2011, 08:38 AM   #235
jeremymcmillan
Dojo: Kiku Matsu/Chicago, IL
Location: Chicago, IL
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Re: Sensei is a nutball and I had enough.

If you think Ki is a magical force, then you have fallen for some depiction of Ki which is NOT consistent with Aikido. Ki is the combination of intent focus and neuromuscular coordination in harmony. I'll accept the magic of Ki only as the kind of magic demonstrated and taught by Penn and Teller.

So, for the pencil trick challenge, I propose something like this: atemi with two hands to your eyes until you blink, and then I'd kiai as one hand sneaks down to pick up the pencil and deposit neatly in your shirt pocket before both hands tap your temples and withdraw. I'm not a magician, who is a PERFORMER of magic, but I do understand how magic really works, and it is totally about harmonizing with the audience, stealing their focus, and making room to facilitate the technical details... where else have I seen that?
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:22 AM   #236
jeremymcmillan
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Re: No Touch Throws

Throwing uke just means moving uke sufficiently away from uke's own center (imaginary plumb line from uke's hara). That lowers the bar for some ways of throwing uke to just making uke move away from his/her center.

Atemi can sometimes move uke. Some people like to make a false distinction about whether nage moved uke with atemi or whether uke moved himself/herself. If you insist on sharpening that distinction, then you have failed to understand the "Ai" in "Aikido."

Conceded: every uke and every throw is different. In some situations no-touch throws are impossible. Only fools and philosophers talk about what is impossible in any and all situations.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:38 PM   #237
Mark Harrington
Dojo: Aikido Arnis of Farmville
Location: Greenville, NC
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote: View Post
Ditto!

Does the plane throw the Sky Diver?

I would say that the plane, by lifting the skydiver to a higher altitude, imparts energy to the skydiver. That potential energy becomes kinetic energy when the skydiver jumps. Since the plane is not alive, it doesn't throw the skydiver, in this case the skydiver does throw himself using the energy imparted by the plane.
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Old 04-14-2011, 10:17 AM   #238
Mark Peckett
Dojo: Aikido Fellowship of Great Britain
Location: Birmingham
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Mark Harrington wrote: View Post
I would say that the plane, by lifting the skydiver to a higher altitude, imparts energy to the skydiver. That potential energy becomes kinetic energy when the skydiver jumps. Since the plane is not alive, it doesn't throw the skydiver, in this case the skydiver does throw himself using the energy imparted by the plane.
Plus, the sky diver actively colludes in being thrown.
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