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Old 02-15-2011, 03:24 PM   #201
David Orange
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The Nishino mentioned in the article is this gentleman:

Bio:http://www.nishinojuku.com/english/e...e_pro_top.html

Video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXEYGqfIU
That's pretty impressive to me despite some of the outlandish behavior of the ukes. However, we should remember that those folks are all probably hyperventilated from a lot of that breathing practice, possibly to the point of giddiness.

Anyway, that Taiki exercise was one of the first things I learned in yoseikan aikido, in 1974/75. That's one I've done lots of. Seeing how they're applying it and considering that Nishino trained with O Sensei, Tohei and Saito as well as with the founder of Yichuan, I'm not inclined to dismiss the videos. He looks like he could put most people down on contact.

As for no-touch throws, I think the important point is that we shouldn't expect them to work and so shouldn't consider them a main intent. I've had a few happen very naturally over the years. Once, when a judo-experienced woman started to attack me with shomen uchi. Just as she was about to attack, I scooted back 18 inches or so--just enough to spoil her distance. So she scooted up 18 inches and reset, but just when she was about to attack, I scooted back 18 inches. This time, she moved up 18 inches and instantly launched her shomen uchi and I did what I learned as the "aiki drop," in front of her feet and she just sailed over my head. It was really funny because it was as if she'd been shot from a slingshot. Whe I moved back, I felt our ma-ai sort of "stretch" and when she moved up, it relaxed. And when I moved back again, it stretched again and when she attacked, it was with the impetus of that "stretchy" attachment between us. A weird feeling, but very fun and memorable, though I couldn't necessarily replicate it.

Another time, a guy gave me a pretty strong front kick and I just opened in nagashi tai sabaki and he just flew right past me and landed behind where I had been standing.

I saw a similar thing in a kyokushin tournament once: one guy kicked for the other guy's head but the other guy just bobbed a bit. The kick missed his head by a couple of inches and the kicker came off his ground foot and spun in the air like a barrel before he hit the ground on the other side of the guy he was trying to kick.

So I'd say no-touch throws are a real thrill to see and a bigger thrill to do, but mostly because the "real thing" is so rare, arising from the perfect conditions of a single moment. I don't think you can force it and I don't think it's good practice to try to hard to achieve it. Kihon waza is a better place to focus.

Best to all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:22 PM   #202
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
That's pretty impressive to me despite some of the outlandish behavior of the ukes. However, we should remember that those folks are all probably hyperventilated from a lot of that breathing practice, possibly to the point of giddiness.
Hi David,

unfortunately, for me the completely ridiculous behaviour of the ukes, takes away all creditability of what the chap is doing. There is no way on this earth that the ukes are being honest or in any way real. If you are throwing ukes who are as high as kites through hyperventilation, what sort of demo is that?

Quote:
Anyway, that Taiki exercise was one of the first things I learned in yoseikan aikido, in 1974/75. That's one I've done lots of. Seeing how they're applying it and considering that Nishino trained with O Sensei, Tohei and Saito as well as with the founder of Yichuan, I'm not inclined to dismiss the videos. He looks like he could put most people down on contact.
I haven't spent the time to fully research Mr Nishino, but from the biog that Demetrio provided it says that he trained for a few years with K. Ueshiba. I stand to be corrected as I am a bit lazy on the research front. And if anyone has felt Mr Nishino's power, please let me know. I just can't get past the bizarre antics of the white clad ukes, it is just wrong to pose this as something genuine. - If it is, and can be proven as such, I will quite happily eat my hakama!

The demo where they are all in a line, one behind the other, I have been in a similar line with about 20 other dan grades and felt what it is like for my teacher to send a shot of ki right down the middle of the line. an interesting sensation I can tell you. everyone ends up moving backwards fairly rapidly, trying not to tread on each others toes , the momentum is there for a while and we all manage to regain composure before too long. Any one can be shown how to move a line of people with ease fairly quickly, it's not rocket science or magic. Relaxation, extension of ki, same old stuff etc. My teacher also trained with Tohei Sensei, I don't belive that Tohei ever demonstrated anything like what Mr Nishio was doing, so he must have gained the superpowers somewhere else.

Ki development exercises are one thing, Ki Demos like the one in the clip are not the same thing

Maybe you are more open minded than me, I just can't buy what I see. And, I could be completely wrong.

As for no touch throws? gotta love em, if they are real!

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:54 PM   #203
David Orange
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
...unfortunately, for me the completely ridiculous behaviour of the ukes, takes away all creditability of what the chap is doing. There is no way on this earth that the ukes are being honest or in any way real. If you are throwing ukes who are as high as kites through hyperventilation, what sort of demo is that?
Well, they weren't all that way. There were some pretty strong-looking people in some of those demos and they weren't laughing or going weird distances. He just sent them straight back and down.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
And if anyone has felt Mr Nishino's power, please let me know. I just can't get past the bizarre antics of the white clad ukes, it is just wrong to pose this as something genuine. - If it is, and can be proven as such, I will quite happily eat my hakama!
I guess it's the same for anyone. It would be good to hear of someone who has experienced what he can do, but usually, you just have to go meet the guy to see if he's real.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
The demo where they are all in a line, one behind the other, I have been in a similar line with about 20 other dan grades and felt what it is like for my teacher to send a shot of ki right down the middle of the line. an interesting sensation I can tell you. everyone ends up moving backwards fairly rapidly, trying not to tread on each others toes , the momentum is there for a while and we all manage to regain composure before too long. Any one can be shown how to move a line of people with ease fairly quickly, it's not rocket science or magic. Relaxation, extension of ki, same old stuff etc. My teacher also trained with Tohei Sensei, I don't belive that Tohei ever demonstrated anything like what Mr Nishio was doing, so he must have gained the superpowers somewhere else.
I didn't see him do much of anything but that taiki opening, find their weak point and send them hurtling back into it. In fact, all he did looked very simple. Of course, what the ukes did is another story, but as has been said so often, bad ukes make it hard to tell how much real power a guy has.

I will say I'd like to meet him and feel that, though most likely, he'd put you with one of those very muscular students for awhile....

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:19 PM   #204
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I guess it's the same for anyone. It would be good to hear of someone who has experienced what he can do, but usually, you just have to go meet the guy to see if he's real.
Hi David,

there must be someone here who has felt him? I can't say that I would travel very far to see what someone has, if there are no credible voices to vouch for him. If he has the goods, great, I'd like to feel it, and learn from it.

I was standing next to Mike S when he squared up shouder to shoulder with a guy at the seminar, he did a power release that sent the guy back a dozen or so feet. Lovely to see and completely real, the uke kept his balance, kept his mind forward and recovered to walk forward with a big grin on his chops. That was real.

If the uke is being honest, then it's likely to be real.

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:59 AM   #205
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No Touch Throws

Hi Mark,

I'm still "investigating" Nishino, so I don't have reached any conclusion. However, maybe the name Kenji Tokitsu, rings a bell.

Anyway, Tokitsu has written about his 4 years experience training with Nishino. IIRC Tokitsu stated Nishino's qigong method has value but there was also a lot of collusive behaviour (unconscious-cultural based-whatever) in Nishino's disciples.

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Old 02-16-2011, 04:27 AM   #206
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,

I'm still "investigating" Nishino, so I don't have reached any conclusion. However, maybe the name Kenji Tokitsu, rings a bell.

Anyway, Tokitsu has written about his 4 years experience training with Nishino. IIRC Tokitsu stated Nishino's qigong method has value but there was also a lot of collusive behaviour (unconscious-cultural based-whatever) in Nishino's disciples.
Hi Demetrio,

I have spent a bit more time reading up on this interesting character.He may well have something, but I'm not sure quite what it is, I clipped this from the article I was reading:

(i) At his school, Nishino practices Taiki with several hundred students each day. He does this once with each student everyday (except for new students who have not practiced for 6 months). If he uses his own energy to knock down or throw several hundred students, he must be exhausted. However, after finishing this within 2--3 h, he seems to be not tired. This fact suggests that opponents used their own energy. (ii) The experience of most of the students has been that when they started learning the Nishino Breathing Method, they did not respond much to Nishino's Ki. They just walked back several steps or fell down. However, after practicing it for from several months to a few years, many of them began to respond more vigorously. It may be that the sensitivity of the student toward Nishino's Ki increases with the practice time, and therefore, the more one practices, the more he/she responds. Again, this supports the notion that the students move with their own energy when they receive Ki from Nishino.

For me the crux of all of this is in the bolded section. The students have to learn to be able to react like they do.

Personally, I'll stick with what I've got. Only time will tell if the breathing method he has developed will increase his lifespan by the factor that he claims. I wouldn't want to learn a breathing method that taught me how to be less centred and co-ordinated (which is what I witness from his students), even if it did extend my life by some years.

Interesting stuff, though.

regards

Mark
p.s. also from the same article:
At the age of 50, he decided to search for the secrets of the Japanese martial art called Aikido. He quickly became a 7th degree blackbelt and trained many students as an Aikido master. Combining all of his experiences, namely western medicine, western ballet and Japanese martial art, and through his continuous search for the secrets and beauty of the human body, he developed the Nishino Breathing Method.

How is this possible??

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-16-2011, 07:53 AM   #207
David Orange
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
For me the crux of all of this is in the bolded section. The students have to learn to be able to react like they do.
In that regard, it's not too far from the Dillman stuff, but I do believe there is a core or very hard reality in what Nishino is doing. I can't begin to imagine what the crazy-looking students are doing, or why, but I did see some people who looked both very strong and very centered. But what do you see in an ordinary aikido school? In some cases, you don't even see one person who looks like he really has any idea about aikido. In some, you see two or three and the rest are just going through motions. It's rare to see a school where very individual is both technically skilled and mentally focused.

But it does appear to me that Nishino and several of his students have some awesome power. It would be interesting to meet him and see.

One other point: ballet is one of the most grueling physical pursuits you can find. Ever check out the legs on Mikhail Baryshnikhov? I think O Sensei and Tohei would have been very impressed by his abilities at 50... But I agree that we need to know more.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-16-2011, 01:30 PM   #208
Mark Freeman
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
In that regard, it's not too far from the Dillman stuff, but I do believe there is a core or very hard reality in what Nishino is doing. I can't begin to imagine what the crazy-looking students are doing, or why, but I did see some people who looked both very strong and very centered. But what do you see in an ordinary aikido school? In some cases, you don't even see one person who looks like he really has any idea about aikido. In some, you see two or three and the rest are just going through motions. It's rare to see a school where very individual is both technically skilled and mentally focused.

But it does appear to me that Nishino and several of his students have some awesome power. It would be interesting to meet him and see.

One other point: ballet is one of the most grueling physical pursuits you can find. Ever check out the legs on Mikhail Baryshnikhov? I think O Sensei and Tohei would have been very impressed by his abilities at 50... But I agree that we need to know more.

Best to you.

David
Hi David,

I will remain an open minded sceptic

regards

Mark
p.s. My daughter is a professional dancer, I appreciate the gruelling nature of their training. Ballet in particular is probably the hardest of all.

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:15 PM   #209
grondahl
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Re: No Touch Throws

From an old thread:
Quote:
Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
One of my seniors in Japan (a 5th dan whom I'd describe as a "slab of beef") went to Tokyo to feel the 'ki' of Nishino Kozo [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXEYGqfIU].

When Nishino waved his hands without effect, my friend was scolded and told that he needed to train more in order to become sensitive to Nishino's energy.

What I don't understand is why anyone would want to practice any sort of martial art, the efficacy of which is based on the attacker's 'sensitivity.'

I find this to be sadly common when an art is nage/tori-centric.
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Old 02-16-2011, 03:33 PM   #210
Tenyu
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The Nishino mentioned in the article is this gentleman:

Bio:http://www.nishinojuku.com/english/e...e_pro_top.html

Video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXEYGqfIU
I honestly didn't know Jedis were real. His midi-chlorian count looks higher than Skywalker's.

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Old 02-16-2011, 06:24 PM   #211
graham christian
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Re: No Touch Throws

Very funny. For me this falls under mesmerism or hypnotism if you like. More to do with the power of suggestion and nothing to do with Ki.
Regards.G.
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:48 PM   #212
David Orange
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Very funny. For me this falls under mesmerism or hypnotism if you like. More to do with the power of suggestion and nothing to do with Ki.
Have you ever tried that Taiki exercise they do?

Granted, the uke reactions are often screwy, but I tried all four of the breathing methods he outlines and find them very interesting and expect that they're really good for ki development. And I have a lot of experience with the Taiki, though I'm sure he puts another emphasis on it. But I wonder how most people would do if they actually touched hands with Nishino or some of his top people? I think most people would really be surprised.

Peter Grondahl's quote from Michael Hacker is interesting, but it's a quote of a quote from a third person's experience and there's too much I don't know about what happened for me to be able to draw solid conclusions. I'd certainly be disappointed if he told me it depended on my sensitivity. I don't want anything that only works on people who are sensitive to it.

But it's really strange that you have this opinion of Nishino based on the video when most commenters here have had almost the same reaction to your videos. I'm willing to imagine that you're teaching something useful in those videos but I actually think that I'm seeing a bad misrepresentation of aikido. It actually looks less believable to me than the Nishino videos. Can you imagine that?

Not trying to insult you, but it seems that that's what 99% of responders have been telling you from the first clip you posted.

I guess I have to meet both Nishino and you.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:55 PM   #213
graham christian
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Have you ever tried that Taiki exercise they do?

Granted, the uke reactions are often screwy, but I tried all four of the breathing methods he outlines and find them very interesting and expect that they're really good for ki development. And I have a lot of experience with the Taiki, though I'm sure he puts another emphasis on it. But I wonder how most people would do if they actually touched hands with Nishino or some of his top people? I think most people would really be surprised.

Peter Grondahl's quote from Michael Hacker is interesting, but it's a quote of a quote from a third person's experience and there's too much I don't know about what happened for me to be able to draw solid conclusions. I'd certainly be disappointed if he told me it depended on my sensitivity. I don't want anything that only works on people who are sensitive to it.

But it's really strange that you have this opinion of Nishino based on the video when most commenters here have had almost the same reaction to your videos. I'm willing to imagine that you're teaching something useful in those videos but I actually think that I'm seeing a bad misrepresentation of aikido. It actually looks less believable to me than the Nishino videos. Can you imagine that?

Not trying to insult you, but it seems that that's what 99% of responders have been telling you from the first clip you posted.

I guess I have to meet both Nishino and you.

Best to you.

David
David, I've never done Taiki. Which exercise do you mean. The breathing?

I have however met a few Taichi teachers, some good and some who tell you what you should do and feel. Likewise I have met many reiki healers who tell you what you should be feeling. You could call that no touch healing.

The funny thing is I can see and feel the difference and so on personal experience can tell you many are to do with the power of suggestion. No Ki. In fact you can get a reiki practitioners certificate after a couple of weekends.

I'm glad you find it strange me saying this it'll give you food for thought.

I am fully aware of the feeling of being led by Ki, of having someone lead your mind, of when I have center and when it's disrupted, and most variations. I have experienced it and understand it therefore to a great degree can recognise it.

Don't know about your maths but the majority of people who post on here may have experienced it sometimes, and you yourself have done some by all accounts, but the majority don't do it so how can they recognise it?

When O'Sensei says things like non-resistance and Saitome sensei says similar I wonder what most folks are hearing. There are folks who explain the Ki side of things and the harmony side of things quite well and yet the majority of posters seem to dismiss or politely acknowledge and then get back to arguing. Then blame the teachers for not teaching properly.

Wendy palmer did a good column on this kind of thing called 'soft power' so I would imagine those looking for this missing part of Aikido would run and queue up to learn from her. Mmmm. I doubt that happened.

Everyone shouts about hard training and I agree but not with what the majority call hard training. It is hard to even look at what non-resistance means apparently. If you non-resist then obviously you cannot go against for against is resistance. If you are doing something TO an opponent then you are against. Now if getting the reality of non-resistance is so hard then the continued practice of it apparently would make most of you feint.

Let's take our friend tenyu as an example. Everyone against. No non-resistance, no Aikido. Blind. They fail to realize that if you accept and non-resist then the person whoever it is will then open up and tell you their views and if they are crazy they will thus expose themselves. By resisting you just give them power.

Unfortunately those who don't jump on the bandwagon are seen as agreeing with. As I said, blind. The blind leading the blind.

To me Kiatsu is far greater than looking impressive bouncing someone around yet what would you see if you watched me do it? Nothing. In fact I am not impressed by seeing anyone bounce someone around for I know by personal experience most couldnt bounce the majority of my students around because they are too centered.

So why should I worry about it? I don't judge myself by fame or even fancy impressive technique and looking the part. All image. I judge myself by how well my students are doing in applying the principles to Aikido and to their own lives and every win for them is a win for me.

The challenge of harmonizing completely with one is greater than the challenge of throwing many.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:41 PM   #214
David Orange
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Re: No Touch Throws

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
David, I've never done Taiki. Which exercise do you mean. The breathing?
Taiki is the push-hands sort of exercise they do, where nage absorbs uke's push by turning the hips and shoulder to roll the push off, then pushes into uke, who in turn rolls it off. That was one of the first exercises I learned in yoseikan aikido and it was presented as a ki exercise. So if Nishino learned directly from O Sensei, he must have gotten the taiki there. It's a lot of fun when the partner is a very strong person.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I'm glad you find it strange me saying this it'll give you food for thought.
Oh, I already feel like I'm learning a lesson, all right.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
When O'Sensei says things like non-resistance and Saitome sensei says similar I wonder what most folks are hearing. There are folks who explain the Ki side of things and the harmony side of things quite well and yet the majority of posters seem to dismiss or politely acknowledge and then get back to arguing. Then blame the teachers for not teaching properly.
I believe from what I've read that most people think that resistance is forbidden. This results in a practice where uke falls no matter what kind of goofy technique nage applies. My own understanding is that nage does nothing to go against uke's efforts but that if uke can feel anything in nage to resist, he should resist it. Because if uke can feel the technique at all, what he actually feels is nage's resistance. And the only way I know of to make nage feel how he is resisting uke is for uke to give him resistance. Then nage can feel what he's doing wrong and can gradually work it out. But if uke never resists, he's really lying to nage and allowing nage to lie to himself, believing that he's so non-resistant even though uke can feel the awkward and counter-spiritedness in nage's technique. But nage should not resist uke at all.

Still, aikido has to relate to real human experience and the fact is, when someone attacks you physically, he means to give you hell. So I think uke ought to give a pretty good representation of that strength when he attacks, if only as a sort of inoculation of nage against the time when he meets a real attacker. In a situation like that, limp, formless and SLOW responses are worthless. Although aikido is ultimately formless, when it manifests, it appears with sharp form and zanshin. So training without good katachi and zanshin are NOT aikido. So it's just as bad to have really "no resistance" in training as it is to go to the other extreme and practice cruel and damaging technique.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Everyone shouts about hard training and I agree but not with what the majority call hard training. It is hard to even look at what non-resistance means apparently. If you non-resist then obviously you cannot go against for against is resistance. If you are doing something TO an opponent then you are against. Now if getting the reality of non-resistance is so hard then the continued practice of it apparently would make most of you feint.
Practicing without form and without zanshin are really quite different from "getting to the reality of non-resistance" because you can't reach very deep with it. Especially done slowly all the time. Tai Chi is done very slowly in practice, but a good tai chi practitioner feels the resistance of the very air. And when they apply technique in self defense it's incredibly fast. Also, when the practice together, there are slow movements, but when someone actually applies a technique, it's like a tiger pouncing.

The only way to ferret out the deep resistance in yourself is hard, fast, resistant training. Because you can think you've shed it and you can manifest it well when no one is putting on any pressure and everyone is going slowly and falling at the slightest touch. When the pressure is on, the deep, inner resistance becomes clear.

I'm afraid if something is going to make anyone faint, it's going to be your students fainting when they run up against someone who proactively means to do them harm.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Let's take our friend tenyu as an example. Everyone against. No non-resistance, no Aikido. Blind.
I'm not against Tenyu. Sometimes the only thing you can do to help a person is to flatly tell them they are going the wrong way. Sure, the world is round and they may eventually follow their path back to the right way, but it's 20000 miles that way and only a couple of feet if you just go the right way from the start.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
They fail to realize that if you accept and non-resist then the person whoever it is will then open up and tell you their views and if they are crazy they will thus expose themselves.
Tenyu opened up and expressed his views from the first post on this thread. He's already exposed himself, non-resistance or not.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Unfortunately those who don't jump on the bandwagon are seen as agreeing with. As I said, blind. The blind leading the blind.
Is that it, really? Or is it a case that you're actually resisting what everyone else is doing? I think if you get into a heavy situation with a skilled fighter, you'll quickly find yourself unable to continue with non-resistance because you train with no form and without living energy. Abstraction is fine in its place, but ten to fifteen minutes of that twice a year is more than enough. If you train like that all the time, you're just going to hurt your students.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
To me Kiatsu is far greater than looking impressive bouncing someone around yet what would you see if you watched me do it? Nothing. In fact I am not impressed by seeing anyone bounce someone around for I know by personal experience most couldnt bounce the majority of my students around because they are too centered.
I'm only impressed by bouncing people if the bouncee looks skilled and serious and delivers a powerful attack. And if a bunch of people are standing around and slowly going through some motions that don't even look like aikido and have none of the spirit of the masters like O Sensei or even Kisshomaru, I find it even less interesting and less convincing. I seriously hesitate to call that aikido.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
So why should I worry about it? I don't judge myself by fame or even fancy impressive technique and looking the part. All image.
So you think that O Sensei, Saito Sensei, Shioda Sensei, Tohei Sensei, Tadashi Abe Sensei, Abbe Sensei, Mochizuki Sensei and all the others were doing something just for looks? They taught aikido and taught how it was to be taught. I don't think they are "all image," by any means.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I judge myself by how well my students are doing in applying the principles to Aikido and to their own lives and every win for them is a win for me.
But how do you know they can really apply those principles with training such as you've shown us? 39 years of training in many arts and with all manner of teachers tells me that you're missing the big boat and I find it ironic that you can comment on Nishino as you did.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The challenge of harmonizing completely with one is greater than the challenge of throwing many.
Great platitude, but does it really have any meaning? If you can't apply that harmony when someone is coming to seriously hurt you, isn't it just words? And I seriously worry about where you're leading your students with the kind of training you've shown us.

Best wishes.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 02-16-2011 at 09:49 PM.

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Old 02-16-2011, 10:44 PM   #215
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
When O'Sensei says things like non-resistance and Saitome sensei says similar I wonder what most folks are hearing. There are folks who explain the Ki side of things and the harmony side of things quite well and yet the majority of posters seem to dismiss or politely acknowledge and then get back to arguing. Then blame the teachers for not teaching properly.
Have you ever actually put your hands on Saotome Sensei? It's like bouncing off a brick wall.

The challenge is to understand how you can *both* be completely soft and non-resistant *and* bounce people as if they've hit a wall. Lots of people can do one or the other; very few can do both.

Katherine
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Old 02-16-2011, 11:15 PM   #216
graham christian
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Re: No Touch Throws

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Taiki is the push-hands sort of exercise they do, where nage absorbs uke's push by turning the hips and shoulder to roll the push off, then pushes into uke, who in turn rolls it off. That was one of the first exercises I learned in yoseikan aikido and it was presented as a ki exercise. So if Nishino learned directly from O Sensei, he must have gotten the taiki there. It's a lot of fun when the partner is a very strong person.

Oh, I already feel like I'm learning a lesson, all right.

I believe from what I've read that most people think that resistance is forbidden. This results in a practice where uke falls no matter what kind of goofy technique nage applies. My own understanding is that nage does nothing to go against uke's efforts but that if uke can feel anything in nage to resist, he should resist it. Because if uke can feel the technique at all, what he actually feels is nage's resistance. And the only way I know of to make nage feel how he is resisting uke is for uke to give him resistance. Then nage can feel what he's doing wrong and can gradually work it out. But if uke never resists, he's really lying to nage and allowing nage to lie to himself, believing that he's so non-resistant even though uke can feel the awkward and counter-spiritedness in nage's technique. But nage should not resist uke at all.

Still, aikido has to relate to real human experience and the fact is, when someone attacks you physically, he means to give you hell. So I think uke ought to give a pretty good representation of that strength when he attacks, if only as a sort of inoculation of nage against the time when he meets a real attacker. In a situation like that, limp, formless and SLOW responses are worthless. Although aikido is ultimately formless, when it manifests, it appears with sharp form and zanshin. So training without good katachi and zanshin are NOT aikido. So it's just as bad to have really "no resistance" in training as it is to go to the other extreme and practice cruel and damaging technique.

Practicing without form and without zanshin are really quite different from "getting to the reality of non-resistance" because you can't reach very deep with it. Especially done slowly all the time. Tai Chi is done very slowly in practice, but a good tai chi practitioner feels the resistance of the very air. And when they apply technique in self defense it's incredibly fast. Also, when the practice together, there are slow movements, but when someone actually applies a technique, it's like a tiger pouncing.

The only way to ferret out the deep resistance in yourself is hard, fast, resistant training. Because you can think you've shed it and you can manifest it well when no one is putting on any pressure and everyone is going slowly and falling at the slightest touch. When the pressure is on, the deep, inner resistance becomes clear.

I'm afraid if something is going to make anyone faint, it's going to be your students fainting when they run up against someone who proactively means to do them harm.

I'm not against Tenyu. Sometimes the only thing you can do to help a person is to flatly tell them they are going the wrong way. Sure, the world is round and they may eventually follow their path back to the right way, but it's 20000 miles that way and only a couple of feet if you just go the right way from the start.

Tenyu opened up and expressed his views from the first post on this thread. He's already exposed himself, non-resistance or not.

Is that it, really? Or is it a case that you're actually resisting what everyone else is doing? I think if you get into a heavy situation with a skilled fighter, you'll quickly find yourself unable to continue with non-resistance because you train with no form and without living energy. Abstraction is fine in its place, but ten to fifteen minutes of that twice a year is more than enough. If you train like that all the time, you're just going to hurt your students.

I'm only impressed by bouncing people if the bouncee looks skilled and serious and delivers a powerful attack. And if a bunch of people are standing around and slowly going through some motions that don't even look like aikido and have none of the spirit of the masters like O Sensei or even Kisshomaru, I find it even less interesting and less convincing. I seriously hesitate to call that aikido.

So you think that O Sensei, Saito Sensei, Shioda Sensei, Tohei Sensei, Tadashi Abe Sensei, Abbe Sensei, Mochizuki Sensei and all the others were doing something just for looks? They taught aikido and taught how it was to be taught. I don't think they are "all image," by any means.

But how do you know they can really apply those principles with training such as you've shown us? 39 years of training in many arts and with all manner of teachers tells me that you're missing the big boat and I find it ironic that you can comment on Nishino as you did.

Great platitude, but does it really have any meaning? If you can't apply that harmony when someone is coming to seriously hurt you, isn't it just words? And I seriously worry about where you're leading your students with the kind of training you've shown us.

Best wishes.

David
David. You misunderstand me. Non- resistance. I agree that nage should non-resist and that is what I meant. Now, when you say uke should resist any resistance he feels in nage I understand what your saying but respectfully disagree which doesn't mean uke does nothing. It means that if uke is attacking for real with nonresistance and thus feels resistance in nage he should ATTACK that resistance. This is subtly different than what your saying. THIS is what I mean.

Why does this sublety make the difference? Well it works both ways. If the nage resists he gets hit or baulked in his trying to do the technique. If on the other hand the uke resists then he goes down hard. I say attacking through in this manner is the ukes protection.

Of course ukes also attack like a madman or whatever to represent various situations as well, but uke let alone nage soon find out the difference.

Why mention zanshin? Zanshin is also to do with non-resistance. I'd like to see you resist and at the same time be aware.

Next, I disagree once again about your view on ferreting out your deep resistance by hard fast resistive training. In fact I would say it's almost exactly the opposite. I would say that to ferret out your resistance the only way is through non-resistve(soft) varied speed training.

Don't twist what I say into the old masters doing it for image thank you.

Now asking me how I know my students apply the principles I teach? Wow! What a silly question.

Applying that harmony in all situations is precisely the practice and the discipline so what's with the if you cant?

Anyway, that's enough to and fro for me. If you don't understand or agree with what I say it's fine by me but either way therefore not worth pursuing.

Regards. G.
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Old 02-17-2011, 03:20 AM   #217
sakumeikan
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,

I'm still "investigating" Nishino, so I don't have reached any conclusion. However, maybe the name Kenji Tokitsu, rings a bell.

Anyway, Tokitsu has written about his 4 years experience training with Nishino. IIRC Tokitsu stated Nishino's qigong method has value but there was also a lot of collusive behaviour (unconscious-cultural based-whatever) in Nishino's disciples.
Why not say plainly that the ukes are jumping?Nishino may well be ok at some stuff related to qi kung but Aikido ?-he is more like a circus magic act-pretty but an illusion.
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:14 AM   #218
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Why not say plainly that the ukes are jumping?Nishino may well be ok at some stuff related to qi kung but Aikido ?-he is more like a circus magic act-pretty but an illusion.
Tatemae

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Old 02-17-2011, 04:36 AM   #219
grondahl
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Re: No Touch Throws

I wonder what it is in aikido and related arts that seem to lead to the cult-like behavior? It´s almost as if aikido-training in itself is having a delusional effect on the human psyche.

Budo as way of regression instead of progression. Lies instead of truth?.
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:27 AM   #220
David Orange
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
I wonder what it is in aikido and related arts that seem to lead to the cult-like behavior? It´s almost as if aikido-training in itself is having a delusional effect on the human psyche.

Budo as way of regression instead of progression. Lies instead of truth?.
It's not just aikido, by any means. Look at the karate world. And on this forum we recently had a young man telling us that his George Dillman karate has somehow become aikijujutsu.

And consider the kung fu cults that abound.

I'd say it's anything where one person tells a bunch of others (who are paying to be there) what to do. Where one person controls something (in this case rank) that the others all desperately want. Or if not rank, some mystique of esoteric knowledge.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 02-17-2011, 08:26 AM   #221
sakumeikan
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Tatemae
Dear Demetrio,
As I stated in my blog why not speak plainly? I note the brevity of your blog. However without resorting to analysing Japanese concepts why not just in idiot proof statements[I am a bit dull at times] just say what you mean in simple non Japanese terms.May I also state I am not xenophobic?
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:34 AM   #222
sakumeikan
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
I wonder what it is in aikido and related arts that seem to lead to the cult-like behavior? It´s almost as if aikido-training in itself is having a delusional effect on the human psyche.

Budo as way of regression instead of progression. Lies instead of truth?.
You have asked what is it about Aikido and related arts that make people take leave of their senses or judgement.Answer is really simple, lack of common sense and an ability to be self deluded.
A bit like the Emperors New Clothes in the fairy tale by Hans Christian Anderson.Some people will swallow any junk tossed their way. Pretty sad . No wonder Aikido takes a battering when there are some guys doing rubbish and promoting themselves in places like You Tube as MASTERS.
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:50 AM   #223
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Demetrio,
As I stated in my blog why not speak plainly? I note the brevity of your blog. However without resorting to analysing Japanese concepts why not just in idiot proof statements[I am a bit dull at times] just say what you mean in simple non Japanese terms.May I also state I am not xenophobic?
Cheers, Joe.
Hi Joe,

Tokitsu being japanese, and former student of Nishino, makes him follow the uses of japanese 'politeness' at least in his published writings.

Plus, this is an Aikido forum. Statements about 7th dan Aikido masters have to be done in a very diplomatic fashion.

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Old 02-17-2011, 08:56 AM   #224
grondahl
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Re: No Touch Throws

Some of the nonsense on youtube actually represents "masters" of aikido. If being an Aikikai 8 dan shihan doesn´t make you a master, what does?

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
You have asked what is it about Aikido and related arts that make people take leave of their senses or judgement.Answer is really simple, lack of common sense and an ability to be self deluded.
A bit like the Emperors New Clothes in the fairy tale by Hans Christian Anderson.Some people will swallow any junk tossed their way. Pretty sad . No wonder Aikido takes a battering when there are some guys doing rubbish and promoting themselves in places like You Tube as MASTERS.
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:20 AM   #225
Janet Rosen
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Re: No Touch Throws

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
You have asked what is it about Aikido and related arts that make people take leave of their senses or judgement.Answer is really simple, lack of common sense and an ability to be self deluded.
As Katherine and I noted some years ago in a Mirror column, when you tell people entering the dojo they are special because they are practicing a spiritual art created by a genius it sort of sets up a prediliction for enhanced self-esteem that may not mesh with reality....
http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/themirror/2005_05.html

Janet Rosen
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