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Old 01-21-2011, 07:58 AM   #26
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

Adapt.... all techniques work..... it's where you apply them....
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:50 AM   #27
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote:
You can't put a square peg in a round hole
Unless the hole is big enough, or the peg small enough.
True...

But you still won't have a good fit.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:31 AM   #28
tlk52
Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
Location: NYC
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

my understanding is that the ikkyo pin is 1) a position where nage could attack/break the elbow, 2) to access your own weapon while controlling the elbow, and 3) a place where, in keiko, nage can test their kokyu and stability.

I don't think that the Ikkyo pin is designed to hold someone immobile but without injury for long periods of time.
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Old 01-25-2011, 06:05 AM   #29
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

Quote:
Ron Merrill
for www.insidefighting.com

Tales from the MMA Crypt is a brand new feature here on InsideFighting.com. We will chronicle the stories of gritty, behind the scenes fight action. We will take you to where the cameras couldn't go. And above all else, we will strive to get to the heart of the story by interviewing participants and witnesses whenever possible.

Our second installment begins with a man who proved that career success could become a double edged sword, if indeed you were in the right career; or in his case, the wrong career. For every cheer that he received for defeating an opponent, he most certainly received "boos" from the fans of the same. While he collected riches for his accomplishments within the ring, he collected a handful of enemies outside of it. It's ironic, actually. And that's why it earns a spot amongst InsideFighting's Tales From The MMA Crypt.

Bas Rutten vs. Bouncers
Bas Rutten set out to have a good time at Sweden's Spy Bar one night back in 1998. Unfortunately for Bas, the employees of the Spy Bar weren't big fans of his. "I was going to the Spy Bar in Sweden. When I walked in, the bouncers called me by my first name and then I knew that something was going to happen," Bas relates. No stranger to recognition, Bas decided to stay at the Stockholm hotspot and dance. After all, he had arrived with friends and was looking to have a good time. "Then I started to jump around Bas Rutten style which is just jumping and dancing to the music. Two bouncers came to me and asked me if I could come with them. I did and they put me in this fire escape room. There, one of them tells me that I have to leave. I said, ‘okay, can you guys get my friend and tell him that I am out because he is also from Holland and doesn't know where to go here?"

Apparently looking for trouble, but not seeming to elicit the desired response from Bas' compliant tone, they resorted to more brutal tactics in order to bait Bas Rutten into fight. "That's where one of the two put a finger in my eye. I told him to stop, and that there was no reason to be aggressive. Then he put his finger in my other eye." Eye gouging is certainly beyond the realm of appropriate conduct for even The Spy Bar's notoriously rough bouncers. With his back literally against the wall, and his personal safety in harm's way, Bas reacted as instinct had taught him. "I KO'd the guy. Then the little guy jumped on me. They all had these little microphones in their ears. In no time there where three more."

Out-numbered by the arrival of reinforcements, the odds shifted from favoring the professional fighter to placing him in serious jeopardy. Rutten quickly learned that superior numbers would be the least of his concerns, however, as his aggressors began to arm themselves. "I was just fighting to get them away from me. Broomsticks came out and they started to hit me with them while I was busy hitting them. It was ugly."

Seeing that the situation had become a hopeless struggle for survival, Rutten realized that his only way out was to make a quick escape. "I was trying to make it downstairs and get the hell out of there. Once I was downstairs I found the door, and what do you know, it was closed." Pinned between a locked door and a posse of sadistic bouncers, Rutten came to a morbid conclusion; this had become life or death. "I turned around and I thought, ‘OK, now I am going to hit you fucking guys in the throat and try to take you out,' since there was no other option."

As the world champion mixed martial artist prepared himself for the fight of his life, the scene took a dramatic and humorous turn. "I looked at them and they took a few steps back. ‘All right,' I thought. They can see in my eyes that I really mean business now, and they are scared! I was wrong. Behind me was the whole police force waiting outside."

Just as his notoriety had brought on the night's conundrums, Bas' fame would see him clear of them. Spending the night in a Swedish jail might not have been the planned after-hours activity for that evening, but it certainly beat the alternative. When Bas Rutten's friends found him two days later, he was his typical, jovial self. He had even been granted privileges above and beyond those of his fellow inmates. "I was eating cookies and drinking coffee and tea while I was watching TV In my cell!"

The following is an excerpt from a Swedish newspaper regarding the incident:

A Really Rotten Fighter
The three security guards stood no chance whatsoever against the deadly professional fighter. "We were lucky to have the police right outside," says Fadde Darwich, safety inspector at the trendy Spy Bar in Stockholm. A week ago, the Dutch heavyweight street fighting instructor, Bas Rutten, assaulted three guards.

He is a champion of the unfair martial art street fighting where everything is allowed: knee-kicks, punching to the throat, and choking your opponent. Bas Rutten tried to apply some of these tricks as he visited Stockholm last Friday. "He arrived at Spy Bar late at night and was rude to a guest. We decided that he should leave the bar, and tumult arose," says Fadde Darwich.

Bas Rutten cut one guard's eyebrow and landed a few more shots, but no one received any serious damage. Rutten was arrested and taken to Norrmalmsarresten (the Norrmalm Jail). He was arrested for assault and assaulting a police officer. Bas Rutten was later set free. He's now disappeared and has probably gone abroad.

As they say, "every cloud has a silver lining," which is why our story doesn't end there. In their editorial, the Swedish newspaper who attempted to defame Bas Rutten for using what it interpreted to be rotten tactics actually showed a copy of Bas's Street and Self-Defense Tactics instructional video. Rather than achieving the desired end-result, the visual aid inspired readers to rush right out and learn the techniques that had allowed one man to survive the thugs at The Spy Bar.

Just what was Bas up against that night at The Spy Bar? Click here to read what patrons of Sweden's The Spy Bar have been saying about the place for years. I think you'll find it to be quite fascinating.
He has also told a story about he hardest he has ever been hit. He claims it was in the head with a bat that had a nail in it. That it was from behind and got stuck in his skull, he turned around and knocked the guy out. I'm not sure Bas is really human.

Having personally tried to use ikkyo in bjj and mma I can say that it's just too much risk for little reward. When ikkyo fails you end up in a really bad stop compared to the safer (in the unarmed context) full body controls.

As for the competition think, I still think most people have no idea what the point of competition is. I don't think guys like Anderson Silva look at competition the way many aikidoka do. I think they look at it as trying to be the best they can be. There is no 'top' and there is no downslide.

To me bjj and boxing is a form of yoga (a term I stole from Matt Thornton). It is a way to explore my body and mind and see what I can overcome. Sure the ability to handle myself in a fight is a nice secondary bonus, but the primary concerns are 100% internal.

I can think of no moment more powerful then being paired with a very strong and spastic new guy who just wants to rip your head off, he might not even know the rules. The pure control and pace seems almost impossible. The realization that your wits are the only thing keeping you from being smashed into paste, followed by seeing the fear and realization in his eyes. A close second to that moment is the moment your partner finally realizes how to train and breaks though that mold of aggression and fear of losing. Then you can have slow, tactical matches that transcend just grappling and move into pure art.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-27-2011, 01:14 PM   #30
JasonDawe
Dojo: Fudoshin Akikai
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2
Canada
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

Saw a video of Steven Segal giving Anderson Silva some pointers and demonstrated what looked like an Iriminage by walking inside of the punch. Would be different technique for fighter to deal with when stand-up boxing is more of a square off and that is what they would expect.

Also dropped Silva with Kotegeishi too - that was funny.

Still I think some techniques such as Ikkyo or Iriminage could be effective and not violate small joint manipulation rules.
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Old 01-28-2011, 05:47 AM   #31
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

Anything short of grabbing a finger and breaking it (or a toe) will not violate small joint manipulation rules.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:38 AM   #32
tombuchanan
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 19
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

Aikido focuses on cooperative training. The aforementioned technique (and those similar to it) will work in a cooperative environment.

MMA focuses on competition. Their techniques will work in a competitive (non-cooperative) environment.

MMA practitioners are typically athletes. Their techniques will work on physically strong individuals with an arsenal of techniques and defensive skills.
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Old 02-03-2011, 02:03 PM   #33
Richard Stevens
Location: Indianapolis
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

I think Tom hid the nail on the head. The likeliness of being able to apply certain Aikido techniques in an MMA ring is greatly diminished by the fact that the competitors are athletes who typically have Jujutsu training.
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Old 02-03-2011, 03:01 PM   #34
Gavin Slater
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 30
Australia
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

Hi,

I dont think it is to do with the waza, but more how you train the waza, and how you train in general. If you are going to fight in a competitive, athletic environment, then you need to prepare for that i.e randori, conditioning etc. People lose fights, waza dont.

Specifically speaking in regards to ikkajo (is it really just a pin?), for example think two on on in wrestling, that is a variation of ikkajo.

Regards,

Gavin
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Old 02-03-2011, 03:18 PM   #35
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 596
England
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Adapt.... all techniques work..... it's where you apply them....
Tony
Agreed.

Many Aikido techniques work well in both the MMA and the street, sadly most people think of the application as in the choregraphed dojo situation..One must be able to adapt to any and all situations.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 02-17-2011, 03:51 AM   #36
daniel loughlin
Dojo: Oldham
Location: Manchester
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

In answer to whether or not ikkyo would work in MMA yes I know this as i used it the other day myself. I did not use ikkyo to completely pin and control my partner if that what is meant by the original thread. However I was facing a guy who was around 5 stone heavier than me and be was burning himself out trying to apply a headlock & choke which he didnt have.
So i just sat there and practiced some relaxed breathing kept my chin tight to my chest, and when i felt an opening caught the wrist he was applying the choke with and reached up behind my head to push his elbow forward. I only meant it as a means of escape from the choke however he because he wasn't used to an ikkyo he didnt even put his free hand out to stop himself and went head first into the floor.
I have also found it a useful escape when someone pounces trying to take your back, but you have to be fast before they get their hooks in.
So as previously stated by others ikkyo does work it just may look a little bit different than it does in the dojo with a flowing partner.
Also people mentioning sankyo and nikkyo in MMA, i'm fair sure that you don't see them used ever because its against the rules of most UFC style fights to use wrist (and finger and toe holds for that matter.)
Peace

Danny Loughlin
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:21 AM   #37
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

Quote:
Daniel Loughlin wrote: View Post
Also people mentioning sankyo and nikkyo in MMA, i'm fair sure that you don't see them used ever because its against the rules of most UFC style fights to use wrist (and finger and toe holds for that matter.)
Peace
Wristlocks are totally legal in MMA, in submission grappling and, of course, in Vale Tudo matches.

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Old 02-17-2011, 04:32 AM   #38
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
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Sweden
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

The myth of aikido waza as "to dangerous" for competition/sparring is hard to kill.
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:48 AM   #39
ChrisHein
 
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Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
The myth of aikido waza as "to dangerous" for competition/sparring is hard to kill.
This myth is very annoying, and proven wrong in our school on an almost daily basis. I think cooperative Randori and Jiyuwaza are much more dangerous for Uke, than one where they can actually protect themselves.

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Old 02-17-2011, 10:04 AM   #40
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This myth is very annoying, and proven wrong in our school on an almost daily basis.
But is an useful myth.

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