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Old 02-15-2011, 02:23 PM   #226
Toby Threadgill
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Your and your friends arguments in this thread, are not based on all the facts nor do they use logic.

A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience's prejudices and emotions rather than logic; e.g., raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is; e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques.

A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.

dps
Mr Skaggs,

Facts & logic.....Hummm.

Well...As I've said before it's all pretty simple stuff. It is you and others who are using sophism to confuse the situation.

We have an individual with only cursory experience in budo who was kicked out of his dojo by his sensei for improper behavior. He perceived himself to be so enlightened that he came here to publicly announce the founding of his own martial art. It later comes to our attention, (directly from his teacher) that he had promised not to teach what he learned from his teacher without permission, and that he is essentially ignoring this promise.

People including yourself attempted to defend this person with very convoluted reasoning. One method was throwing out comparisons to Bruce Lee, Ueshiba, Akuzawa and Dan Harden. And it was you who included one definition of sophism as:

"It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong,"

Well,

On the surface these seem like logical comparisons but the people you mention are not relevant and therefore wrong for many reasons, some of which are:

None could be considered beginners.

Bruce Lee was never disloyal to Yip Man. Bruce was one of only 6 students ever trained personally by Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung. Bruce Lee was also already a boxing champion before he started teaching Jun Fan boxing after moving to Seattle from Hong Kong in in 1959. (FWIW, Long ago I was a student of both Jun Fan Boxing and Wing Chun. They are NOT the same.)

Morihei Ueshiba was fully licensed in Daito ryu before founding aikido.

Neither Akuzawa nor Dan Harden are teaching anything remotely similar to Daito ryu.

So the inclusion of all these people is not factually or logically relevant to the context of this debate, consequently it sure looks like you are using sophistry to me.

You also present evidence that Mr Read "may" be offering some information publicy that would compromise his claim that the information given to our esteemed founder and OP was proprietary. This might be a legitimate subject for another discussion but in this case it is irrelevant, and is frankly little more than obfuscation. Regardless of what knowledge is offered publicly by Mr Read the fact remains that a promise was made and it is now being ignored by the OP.

The relevant facts as far as I'm concerned are:

The OP is essentially a beginner but clearly making a public claim to be an expert.

The OP was kicked out of the dojo by his teacher for inappropriate behavior with a parent during a childrens class, but obviously sees himself as experienced and mature enough to found his own martial art.

The OP broke his promise to his teacher after leaving the dojo.

My conclusion based on these facts and the clear application of logic is that this person does not manifest the expertise, maturity or character traits I demand for serious consideration as a sensei or founder of a martial art. Simple as that.

I'm off to more important pursuits. The weasle farting can now proceed as I have nothing more to add.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-15-2011 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:26 PM   #227
Howard Popkin
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Mr Skaggs,

I'm off to more important pursuits. The weasle farting can now proceed as I have nothing more to add.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Dude,

You said .....weasel farting
LOL
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:34 PM   #228
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Bruce Lee was also already a boxing champion before he started teaching Jun Fan boxing after moving to Seattle from Hong Kong in in 1959.
Kiddy boxing champion in a small league.

Quote:
Morihei Ueshiba was fully licensed in Daito ryu before founding aikido.
Kyoju dairy = full transmission? Then Menkyo Kaiden is?

What about Kano founding Judo at age 22 without full transmission in Kito-ryu and Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū?

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Old 02-15-2011, 02:36 PM   #229
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Mr Skaggs,

Facts & logic.....Hummm.

Well...As I've said before it's all pretty simple stuff. It is you and others who are using sophism to confuse the situation.

We have an individual with only cursory experience in budo who was kicked out of his dojo by his sensei for improper behavior. He perceived himself to be so enlightened that he came here to publicly announce the founding of his own martial art. It later comes to our attention, (directly from his teacher) that he had promised not to teach what he learned from his teacher without permission, and that he is essentially ignoring this promise.

People including yourself attempted to defend this person with very convoluted reasoning. One method was throwing out comparisons to Bruce Lee, Ueshiba, Akuzawa and Dan Harden. And it was you who included one definition of sophism as:

"It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong,"

Well,

On the surface these seem like logical comparisons but the people you mention are not relevant and therefore wrong for many reasons, some of which are:

None could be considered beginners.

Bruce Lee was never disloyal to Yip Man. Bruce was one of only 6 students ever trained personally by Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung. Bruce Lee was also already a boxing champion before he started teaching Jun Fan boxing after moving to Seattle from Hong Kong in in 1959. (FWIW, Long ago I was a student of both Jun Fan Boxing and Wing Chun. They are NOT the same.)

Morihei Ueshiba was fully licensed in Daito ryu before founding aikido.

Neither Akuzawa nor Dan Harden are teaching anything remotely similar to Daito ryu.

So the inclusion of all these people is not factually or logically relevant to the context of this debate, consequently it sure looks like you are using sophistry to me.

You also present evidence that Mr Read "may" be offering some information publicy that would compromise his claim that the information given to our esteemed founder and OP was proprietary. This might be a legitimate subject for another discussion but in this case it is irrelevant, and is frankly little more than obfuscation. Regardless of what knowledge is offered publicly by Mr Read the fact remains that a promise was made and it is now being ignored by the OP.

The relevant facts as far as I'm concerned are:

The OP is essentially a beginner but clearly making a public claim to be an expert.

The OP was kicked out of the dojo by his teacher for inappropriate behavior with a parent during a childrens class, but obviously sees himself as experienced and mature enough to found his own martial art.

The OP broke his promise to his teacher after leaving the dojo.

My conclusion based on these facts and the clear application of logic is that this person does not manifest the expertise, maturity or character traits I demand for serious consideration as a sensei or founder of a martial art. Simple as that.

I'm off to more important pursuits. The weasle farting can now proceed as I have nothing more to add.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Not to mention said person's attempt to set up shop NEXT DOOR to his former teacher's dojo... always big on the list of tacky things to do.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:54 PM   #230
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I am just pointing out the that what he did was what O'sensi did and to judge Tenyu's action is also to judge O'sensei's actions and many other martial artist both famous and obscure.
What Tenyu is doing is nothing like O Sensei did. O Sensei held a teaching license from Sokaku Takeda and he taught under Takeda's auspices for several years before beginning his own art. Jigoro Kano had menkyo in three styles of jujutsu before he created judo and he was consistently beating his teachers in randori through the principles he personally discovered and applied to their arts.

The closest comparison we could make to Tenyu is maybe Bruce Lee, who came to America to escape criminal charges, taught pretty much straigh Wing Chun for several years and then completely changed his approach after he tried to apply Wing Chun against Chinese internal arts. And Bruce Lee was dead eight years later.

So let's be clear that there is nothing similar in Bruce Lee's "starting his own style" and in O Sensei's development of aikido. Likewise, nothing similar between Bruce Lee and Jigoro Kano or most other founders of serious bujutsu and budo systems.

And Tenyu has done nothing but take someone else's work and present it as his own.

There's nothing to applaud, congratulate, admire or encourage in his efforts. He is simply a confused young man who's made a big mistake and needs to recognize that fact.

Regards.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:11 PM   #231
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Jigoro Kano had menkyo in three styles of jujutsu before he created judo and he was consistently beating his teachers in randori through the principles he personally discovered and applied to their arts.
Actually, I can't find Kano's levels in the other systems. He may not have had three menkyo, though I've heard that before...

Here's a good article on the creation of judo, though. If anyone around here has this kind of experience, I'd like to meet them.

http://judoinfo.com/kano4.htm

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:38 PM   #232
Keith Larman
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Wow sort of like Deja Vue in a way.
Depends on who you're comparing. O-sensei had a valid teaching license and taught with Takeda's permission. He wasn't hamon'ed. And he wasn't a beginner but an experienced and well respected martial artist in his own rite. There is zero comparison.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Of course your words carry more weight than mine because you are higher ranking than I, an outstanding member of both the Aikido and Aikiweb communities and a nice guy.

dps ( Aikido hobbyist )
Wow.

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Old 02-15-2011, 03:41 PM   #233
Howard Popkin
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

He said weasel farting
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:44 PM   #234
Eric Joyce
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
The closest comparison we could make to Tenyu is maybe Bruce Lee, who came to America to escape criminal charges, taught pretty much straigh Wing Chun for several years and then completely changed his approach after he tried to apply Wing Chun against Chinese internal arts. And Bruce Lee was dead eight years later.
Hey David,

Was this the fight back in the mid 60's against Wong Jack Man or something like that? If memory serves me, I think he was a tai chi or xingyiquan guy.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:03 PM   #235
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Mr Skaggs,

Facts & logic.....Hummm.

Well...As I've said before it's all pretty simple stuff. It is you and others who are using sophism to confuse the situation.....

(snip)

Simple as that.

I'm off to more important pursuits. The weasle farting can now proceed as I have nothing more to add.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
I was not aware of the rules that framed this discussion.

My facts are irrelevant and the facts that back you up are relevant.

Well in that case you win.

dps
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:13 PM   #236
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Considering much of O Sensei's staffwork has been ridiculed on Aikiweb and completely ignored globally within Aikido the responses here have been predictable. I've already admitted I stole some of his lost work, but I know this is what he wanted as he failed to transmit the more advanced stuff to his students. I think Tohei got very close though. For the record I have kept less than five Aikibojitsu forms and even those are done differently. The primary nodal channels of Aikibodo are the third or fourth harmonics, which is what O sensei used the most post-war both with the staff and his ukes.

I want any lurkers to know that I can patiently and effectively teach Aikibodo, the essence of Aikido. The basic foundational skills and principles are taught from the very beginning in precise detail. I do not expect anyone to have to steal my techniques although if they eventually get to point where they can then I highly encourage them to do so! Aikido is not a koryu, nor is it simply what's done in the dojo, it is a way to correct our own psychology and to awaken the potential within us all.

Please email me at aikibodo(at)gmail.com if interested. Before doing so the only thing I ask is that the peak oil link in my OP be read.

-Tenyu
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:26 PM   #237
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
He is simply a confused young man who's made a big mistake and needs to recognize that fact.

David
Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Jigoro Kano had menkyo in three styles of jujutsu before he created judo
Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Actually, I can't find Kano's levels in the other systems. He may not have had three menkyo, though I've heard that before...
David
dps
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:39 PM   #238
C. David Henderson
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Considering much of O Sensei's staffwork has been ridiculed on Aikiweb and completely ignored globally within Aikido the responses here have been predictable.
So let me get this straight.

1. People on Aikiweb don't value or understand O Sensei's staff work.

Therefore,

2. People on Aikiweb have been critical about the circumstances under which you have held yourself out as a teacher of staff work.

I'm sorry, that makes no sense at all.

Maybe you could predict folks saying, "meh," but that's hardly the response you've gotten, is it?

Last edited by akiy : 02-15-2011 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

David Henderson
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:42 PM   #239
Mark Freeman
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Hi Tenyu,

I'd respectfully suggest that you quit while you are behind!

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:52 PM   #240
Marc Abrams
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Tenyu,

I'd respectfully suggest that you quit while you are behind!

regards,

Mark
Mark:

Careful! He might note that everybody here has poked fun of O'Sensei's behind.......

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:58 PM   #241
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mark:

Careful! He might note that everybody here has poked fun of O'Sensei's behind.......

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:00 PM   #242
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

From Aikido Journals 2nd O Sensei DVD:







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Old 02-15-2011, 05:03 PM   #243
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Hey David,

Was this the fight back in the mid 60's against Wong Jack Man or something like that? If memory serves me, I think he was a tai chi or xingyiquan guy.
Yes, it was Man Jack Wong, Peter Ralston's teacher. He had a lot of experience in various arts (that he learned directly from teachers--not from books). A very interesting article about that fight is floating around out there somewhere. Very convincing to me that the story in Linda Lee's book is "biased" to say the least.

http://www.lakungfu.com/sifujackmanwong.html

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:07 PM   #244
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I was not aware of the rules that framed this discussion.

My facts are irrelevant and the facts that back you up are relevant.

Well in that case you win.
That pretty much sums it up, David. Though I'm sure Toby is not interested in "winning". It's hardly winning if, at noon, someone tells you it's midnight and you say, "No, it's noon."

You should just use relevant facts. Or even "facts" at all would be a good start.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:22 PM   #245
Garth Jones
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Considering much of O Sensei's staffwork has been ridiculed on Aikiweb and completely ignored globally within Aikido the responses here have been predictable.
Ignored globally? Really? Well, let's see, Saito Sensei not only studied O'Sensei's weapons work with extreme care, he wrote the first books on the subject and taught weapons so extensively that he gave separate rank in aiki weapons. His son, the current head of the dojo in Iwama, is carrying on that tradition. And there are Iwama affiliated dojos all over over the world that continue this tradition.

Saotome Sensei thinks weapons are so important that he has developed an entire series of sword, two sword, jo, etc. kata. Not only that, but the ASU summer camp in Washington DC is an entire week devoted to what? Weapons training.

Chiba Sensei (Birankai) has developed an extensive array of weapons kata, and those folks are very serious about it. I trained with a student of Chiba Sensei for a couple of years. Whenever we got out the weapons, we put on the hockey gloves, just in case somebody made a mistake.

Hikitsuchi Sensei taught weapons as well as empty hand, and also taught bo forms that were the inspiration for what Tom Read Sensei has developed.

Ikeda Sensei teaches a weapons class at many of his seminars and, let me tell you, he is some kind of intense with a stick in his hands.

My first Japanese teacher, Akira Tohei Sensei, taught some of Saito Sensei's kata as well as an entire array of jo-tori and jo-waza.

There are many more examples......
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:46 PM   #246
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Garth,

I've seen most of the video available of the people you've mentioned and to my eyes there is no doubt. O Sensei himself has said looking back he didn't see anyone doing his Aikido, and I know he meant that literally. As a minor point of fact, with video proof, there are forms no one else has done since. This doesn't mutually exclude the fact that his students obviously picked up different parts of his practice but the thing with Aikido is that it is primarily a holistic way, if ‘one part' is missing than dissonance however small is introduced into the whole. The problem with martial arts is it's too easy to mask dissonance with resistive power especially when working with people. This also doesn't mean that what I think Saito Junior or the others are doing is wrong, if you've read the thread then you'll know I applaud anyone committed to helping others learn the way. I rarely see videos of the Iwama line that share the same qualities of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g8jOe9VyJw so I don't know how actively it's being taught or experimented with.

Being physically small, O Sensei naturally had very high frequencies and periodicities in his Aikido which made it all the more difficult for anyone to figure out what he was doing. He never activated asymptotes with the staff from what I can tell because the implicit demands of his very short jo made them impossible to contain let alone even reach in the first place. I've come to realize that I do believe he was still landing on asymptotic surfaces with the jo at strike termination, touching in the decontracted without activating in the contracted. There was nothing random about his takemusu. There is a quality of resonance in his transitions between forms which I have not seen matched since. His work was brilliantly grounded in the decontracted, which many people in modern culture confuse as death.

With the longer staff that I use now 57" which comes to the top of my shoulder, the waveforms can be amplified significantly from that of O Sensei although it's much more difficult for me, outside of extremely defined multi-level resonator forms, to match his frequencies and periodicities. The benefit of this, besides creating a beautiful art of its own, is that any error I make is amplified exponentially and becomes readily apparent to me. Even errors invisible to the naked eye can be felt within one's body. The feedback of a responsive staff is brutally honest and immediate. The staff cannot lie, therefore the staff is the ultimate uke. The staff tells me where to correct my intent.

To learn the basic principles and applications of Aikido all one needs to learn is how to use asymptotes properly with the shomen, yokomen, and tsuki. That's it. All the complex forms in my videos aren't technically necessary but I do value beauty and there's always things to be learned exploring the depths of the unknown.

-Tenyu
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:19 PM   #247
Cliff Judge
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

You could probably end global warming and re-energize the environment if you practiced your staff forms in the middle of a street that was saturated with a lot of linear, downstream, what I call "traffic" energy.
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:11 AM   #248
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Very convincing to me that the story in Linda Lee's book is "biased" to say the least.
Hi David,

What makes you think one version is more 'true' than the other?

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Old 02-16-2011, 06:26 AM   #249
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I rarely see videos of the Iwama line that share the same qualities of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g8jOe9VyJw so I don't know how actively it's being taught or experimented with.
Join a Iwama style dojo I'm sure they will enjoy sharing their bo/jo work with you. If it is a Hitohiro Sensei line dojo, the better.

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Old 02-16-2011, 07:13 AM   #250
Marc Abrams
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Join a Iwama style dojo I'm sure they will enjoy sharing their bo/jo work with you. If it is a Hitohiro Sensei line dojo, the better.
Demetrio:

To "spare" an Iwama style dojo the awareness of their "lacking," rumor has it that the mother ship is on it's way to return him to his higher calling.........

Marc Abrams
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