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Old 02-15-2011, 09:19 AM   #201
Mark Freeman
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
What on earth makes you think it was hidden at all, or that it should be? People who throw mud shouldn't complain if they get dirty, nor should others complain on their behalf.
Mary,

I'm not complaining on anyone's behalf. I am just pointing out that the mudslinging that is going on is making the adults look like children in the playground. ( How patronising does that sound! )

enjoy the game, carry on

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:23 AM   #202
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Mudslinging is used when one has little or no facts to back up their argument and have only perceptions and feelings to argue with.

dps
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:28 AM   #203
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Facts? Who needs facts?
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:29 AM   #204
Toby Threadgill
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Mark,

Did you think Mary was trying to hide her sarcasm? If so, the Americans and English truly are people separated by a common language.

And, I see no poorly disquised insults here. People being lampooned and satirized? Yes, and given some of the bizarre sophistry employed on this thread, satire and lampooning seems quite appropriate.

At the end of the day, someone came here to very publicly proclaim his budo expertise and qualifications. When scrutinized, his proclamation was found wanting, if not outright disingenuous. The responses from him and those who attempted to defend his actions were so obtuse and incoherent that any further attempt at discussion became an exercise in absurdity. At that point lampoonery, satire and sarcasm resulted. Such interaction is not only appropriate but a well worn method to guide a discussion back towards reasoned logic. Alas it is seldom successful, but some of us with a sense of humor do get a chuckle or two out of such dialogue, which means this exercise was not a complete bust.



Toby Threadgill
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:37 AM   #205
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Mudslinging is used when one has little or no facts to back up their argument and have only perceptions and feelings to argue with.

dps
Also lampoonery, satire and sarcasm .

dps
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:16 AM   #206
C. David Henderson
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

So Graham, I think you're running up against the tolerance limits of a number of people who support free and open discussion but have been consistently frustrated by some tendencies in your writing. This is an opportunity for self-examination. Will you seize it?

David Henderson
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:28 AM   #207
Mark Freeman
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Mark,

Did you think Mary was trying to hide her sarcasm? If so, the Americans and English truly are people separated by a common language.

And, I see no poorly disquised insults here. People being lampooned and satirized? Yes, and given some of the bizarre sophistry employed on this thread, satire and lampooning seems quite appropriate.

At the end of the day, someone came here to very publicly proclaim his budo expertise and qualifications. When scrutinized, his proclamation was found wanting, if not outright disingenuous. The responses from him and those who attempted to defend his actions were so obtuse and incoherent that any further attempt at discussion became an exercise in absurdity. At that point lampoonery, satire and sarcasm resulted. Such interaction is not only appropriate but a well worn method to guide a discussion back towards reasoned logic. Alas it is seldom successful, but some of us with a sense of humor do get a chuckle or two out of such dialogue, which means this exercise was not a complete bust.



Toby Threadgill
Hi Toby,

personally I love satire, and lampoonery, my favourite form of comedy, and I am guilty of using sarcasm as a means of communication, not a trait I admire that much. I was probably responding slightly tangentially to another thread where, it has been noted that the tone of the exchanges here can, scare people off from participating.
This thread is a fluffy baby kitten compared to some that I read.

I also agree with what you say about the OP and his being found wanting - He will live with the results of his actions and rightly so.

I do think though, that some of the proclamations about those defending the indefensible may be a bit too strident, maybe they were trying to bring a little balance into the proceedings? maybe.
"There is nothing more dangerous than man who has certainty" I believe I am wonderfully misquoting some wise man there.

I may be talking a load of old bollocks (as we are wont to say round these parts). And it is unlike me to come over all serious. I usually can be relied upon to be a bit flippant to lighten the proceedings.

I think Phi is the master humourist on these threads, he nearly always raises a smile

Anyway, I'm supposed to be working right now, and I'm not sure my boss will see the funny side of me chatting to you.

I will follow the rest with interest if it is, and if I do see any humour I will duly laugh.

Oh, Ironically I think that the Americans and the Brits being separated by a common language is quite wrong but at the same time quite funny, but then you guys don't get irony, do you?

regards,

Mark
let's see if the discussion gets back to reasoned logic

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:52 AM   #208
Toby Threadgill
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Also lampoonery, satire and sarcasm .

dps
Mr Skaggs,

Given your own exquisite and well cultivated skill at sophism I find your response pricelessly ironic. (This would be an example of "fact based" sarcasm.)

See Mark, some of us Americans do get irony...

and bronzy....and goldy.



Toby Threadgill

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-15-2011 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:55 AM   #209
Marc Abrams
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Given the tone of this thread, I think that this link is befitting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-15-2011, 11:01 AM   #210
Toby Threadgill
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Given the tone of this thread, I think that this link is befitting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w

Marc Abrams
I think this is better!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY-rVVRZoC8



Alas duty calls so this exercise in observing "itachi no Saigobe" must come to an end.

Good luck to you all in whatever humorous or exasperating pursuits you find worthy of your time.

Toby Threadgill

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-15-2011 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 02-15-2011, 11:58 AM   #211
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I don't think Marc or anybody is claiming that the set of ethics that Tenyu has violated by breaking his oath to Read Sensei to not teach Aikibujitsu is that of a Samurai to his lord. Marc may have allowed you to frame the argument in that exchange.

Some of us are arguing that the ethics in play regarding the student-teacher relationship in koryu can be applied as a precedent here. Those of us who are talking about these ethics do not misunderstand them in the way that you raise.

You may argue that this is gendai budo and it is therefore erroneous to consider the agreement Tenyu entered into with Read Sensei as a kisshomon, but you may not argue that the people on this board who practice or read about koryu training don't know what a kisshomon is.
It would take me a pair of columns the size the ones Prof. Goldsbury writes (in poorer English) for explaining how disloyalty, treason, stealing, backstabbing and making shit up is the real bushi style, not the Tokugawa bureaucrats and much less the nitobeistic romanticised western ethics & values known as 'bushido'. Plus adressing how many ryuha were founded by fully licensed (as in 'a tengu gave me the scrolls, got a problem with that?') martial arts instructors and analyzing what are (were) the usual contents of a kisshomon, how was it enforced, how it applies to hamoned members of a school and the developement of the iemoto/soke system as a mean to protect both revenues and the fascist social order well entered Edo era.

And that for 'winning a thread' about a delusional wanabee stealing a staff twirling method. Doesn't worth the effort.
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:49 PM   #212
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
And that for 'winning a thread' about a delusional wanabee stealing a staff twirling method. Doesn't worth the effort.
There you go... as Bob Dylan wrote,"You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows."

George S. Ledyard
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:53 PM   #213
Keith Larman
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Demetrio

I would be very surprised if any of the experience folk posting would disagree with what you wrote. Lots of tengu inspired a lot of things over the years. But those guys weren't exactly seen as being terribly honorable at the time either.

Years ago I got a speeding ticket. I was a minor at the time. I was really upset about it. The officer couldn't have possibly known how fast I was going. He saw me in a group of cars and singled me out because I was in a nice car (my parents') and was a long-haired teenager that looked like your typical "out to get in trouble" kid. I thought I was singled out, and I probably was.

So I go with my dad to the juvenile court and sit in the office with the judge. The judge sits there patiently as I lay out how the officer obviously singled me out, how he couldn't have possibly determined my speed, etc. Then he looked at me and said "Okay young man, but were you speeding?" "Ummm, judge, well, ... yes." I was given a fine and sent on my way.

The point is that all those things I said were likely true. The officer singled me out for all the wrong reasons. The officer couldn't have possibly known how fast I was going but he wrote down I was doing 48 MPH in a 35 zone. I looked like "trouble" so he probably wanted to make sure I hadn't stolen the car and the speeding was a pretense to do that.

But I was still speeding. I was in the wrong no matter that he let all those other people go who "looked" more respectable.

History is full of guys acting badly. That is true in every culture. It is true of many martial arts (which seems to attract that like flies). It was a jerk move then and it is a jerk move now. Yeah, sometimes it worked out for them. It was still a jerk move.

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Old 02-15-2011, 01:13 PM   #214
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Mr Skaggs,

Given your own exquisite and well cultivated skill at sophism I find your response pricelessly ironic. (This would be an example of "fact based" sarcasm.)

See Mark, some of us Americans do get irony...

and bronzy....and goldy.



Toby Threadgill
Your and your friends arguments in this thread, are not based on all the facts nor do they use logic.

A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience's prejudices and emotions rather than logic; e.g., raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is; e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques.

A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.

dps
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:24 PM   #215
Fred Little
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
It would take me a pair of columns the size the ones Prof. Goldsbury writes (in poorer English) for explaining how disloyalty, treason, stealing, backstabbing and making shit up is the real bushi style, not the Tokugawa bureaucrats and much less the nitobeistic romanticised western ethics & values known as 'bushido'. .
Eiko Ikegami already wrote the book on that one. It's called "The Taming of the Samurai."

The thing about distinctively Japanese "making shit up" regarding lineage claims that you're missing is this: most such claims were concocted to satisfy (sometimes legal, sometimes cultural) requirements over and above simple efficacy. There's a big difference between having a high-ranking member of the buke say "I love what you can do and really wish I could hire you as an instructor for my guys, but the lineage claim isn't quite antique enough. On the other hand, I know an expert in ancient document research who might be able to help us out" and, to paraphrase George, essentially using the guy who tossed you out on your ear as a reference.

The former may be ethically dubious, but the latter is unbelievably dumb, any way you slice it. Let us not confused disturbingly nuanced ethics for boneheaded cluelessness or draw any equivalence between the two.

But the real point here was the URL for Eiko Ikegami's book, which is well worth the read -- especially the section in the back comparing the samurai to contemporary Latin honor cultures.

Enjoy!

FL

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Old 02-15-2011, 01:24 PM   #216
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.
So what?

This is about winning, this is about crushing enemies, seeing them driven before you and hearing the lamentation of their women. Anything goes. Real bujutsu.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:29 PM   #217
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Eiko Ikegami already wrote the book on that one. It's called "The Taming of the Samurai."

Enjoy!

FL
Thanks for pointing me to Ikegami's book.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:44 PM   #218
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
History is full of guys acting badly. That is true in every culture. It is true of many martial arts (which seems to attract that like flies). It was a jerk move then and it is a jerk move now. Yeah, sometimes it worked out for them. It was still a jerk move.
Wow sort of like Deja Vue in a way.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Hmmm, sounds like a familiar story, once upon a time in Japan.
Of course your words carry more weight than mine because you are higher ranking than I, an outstanding member of both the Aikido and Aikiweb communities and a nice guy.

dps ( Aikido hobbyist )
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:49 PM   #219
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Your and your friends arguments in this thread, are not based on all the facts nor do they use logic.

A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience's prejudices and emotions rather than logic; e.g., raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is; e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques.

A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.

dps
My bad. I forgot to show where the quote came from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism#Modern_usage
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:56 PM   #220
Cliff Judge
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Your and your friends arguments in this thread, are not based on all the facts nor do they use logic.

A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience's prejudices and emotions rather than logic; e.g., raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is; e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques.

A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.

dps
Mr Skaggs, I apologize if this sounds disrespectfully obtuse and direct, but what is your overall point in this thread? Towards the beginning of the thread you seemed to be defending Tenyu, but since then it seems like you have been mostly meta-arguing with various folks. It is clear that something about the way several people on this thread passed judgment got your goat. That has been kind of your "agenda" for lack of a better term for the whole conversation. I'm honestly interested in hearing your opinions on whatever it is you don't like about this whole thing.

Again, no disrespect or challenge intended, I'd just like to invite you to say what you are wanting to say.
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:21 PM   #221
dps
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Mr Skaggs, I apologize if this sounds disrespectfully obtuse and direct, but what is your overall point in this thread? Towards the beginning of the thread you seemed to be defending Tenyu, but since then it seems like you have been mostly meta-arguing with various folks. It is clear that something about the way several people on this thread passed judgment got your goat. That has been kind of your "agenda" for lack of a better term for the whole conversation. I'm honestly interested in hearing your opinions on whatever it is you don't like about this whole thing.

Again, no disrespect or challenge intended, I'd just like to invite you to say what you are wanting to say.
No apology necessary nor any disrespect felt.

No, no one got my goat.

I am not sure what you mean by meta-arguing.

I am reading and learning, posting my observations and opinions based on facts, responding to questions asked of me and defending myself just like everybody else on this thread, on Aikiweb forums.

If my facts are wrong please let me know.

I am not defending Tenyu , that is an assumption made by others.

I am just pointing out the that what he did was what O'sensi did and to judge Tenyu's action is also to judge O'sensei's actions and many other martial artist both famous and obscure.

dps
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:27 PM   #222
Garth Jones
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
So what?

This is about winning, this is about crushing enemies, seeing them driven before you and hearing the lamentation of their women. Anything goes. Real bujutsu.
A good quote, from that paragon of martialness, Conan the Barbarian.

Here's the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V30tyaXv6EI

:-)
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:37 PM   #223
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

However there are barbarians who say best in life is hot water,good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.

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Old 02-15-2011, 03:18 PM   #224
Garth Jones
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
However there are barbarians who say best in life is hot water,good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.

Now that's my kind of barbarian! I'd add antibiotics to the list!
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:18 PM   #225
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

I've been avoiding this thread because I'm a bit torn. On one hand it seems easy to criticize, and that so much has been given already makes me want to focus on something else. On the other hand, I look at the response by Sensei Read, and it seems clear the removal from his school is a pertinent point to bring up. It also raises the important question of how to choose a school.
I'm not sure Tenyu was being intentionally duplicitous (and suspect his view would be that he wasn't), though I can see why people wouldn't be too keen on his forming a school which seems heavily based, if not almost entirely so, on someone else's creation. Particularly considering that Tenyu was effectively removed from that other school. It begs certain questions and certainly goes against the general grain of things.
That said, I particularly liked David's remark about giving second chances. I think that's a very pertinent point to make on a forum about an art that is so often considered to be altruistic in nature (of course whether it is or not is entirely open to debate, but that is a common enough view).
So I'm left with what I always try to do, and that's to put myself in someone else's shoes. As a student looking for a teacher I would be dubious, knowing my prospective teacher had a falling out with one of his teachers. I would also not make that a deciding point since I've known many good people to have falling outs with each other. Life is sloppy; a work in progress. And for all most of us knows, we don't have all the pertinent information. We're not in the middle of this; we weren't there...I'm guessing that's what David's basic point is...that and that the desire to criticize has perhaps overshadowed certain valid points, such as the fact that any individual is free to choose their own path and to teach whatever they deem fit. If Tenyu wants to open his own school I say it's his choice. He did at least list his experience, so far as I can tell. How many people, when listing credentials, list the caveats of those credentials? None I've ever seen.
I agree with the idea that this is not a "new" style of Aikibojitsu; it's a new school. From an outsider's perspective it certainly seems very much like the "old" style, but presented from a less experienced person. I think Tenyu could have presented himself in a way that would have been more effective and that would have negated much of the criticism aimed at him...ounce of prevention and all that.
At any rate, I'm sorry if this post of mine doesn't add much. I've been living off 3 and 4 hours of sleep the last several days.
...just some impressions.
Take care folks!
Matt
p.s. I'd just like to add I think this is an interesting thread and that I hope Tenyu is taking it as something more than just empty criticism. If he is serious about being a teacher he needs to be ready for constant criticism...especially if he's teaching anything related to budo. My view is, considering the experience of some of the folks offering their thoughts, his response should probably be, "thank you, may I have another."
...My two wooden nickels offered to a person I know nothing about. Again, to him, to you all: Take care!

Last edited by mathewjgano : 02-15-2011 at 03:22 PM.

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