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Old 02-13-2011, 11:34 PM   #1
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
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England
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Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Hi.
Someone asked me the other day where I learned that 'healing thing' I do and it got me wondering. I learned Ki-atsu in Aikido many years ago and now am very confident in my use of it but for some reason I've never really considered how many Aikido people do it?

So I suddenly had a few interesting questions I'd like to ask. Personally I've found it to be amazing for Ki developement and indeed reality so it led me to wan't to ask the following:

1) Does anyone personally do Ki-atsu and would like to say in what way it helps them in Aikido?

2) Does anyone have any personal experience of Ki-atsu and would like to share it?

Regards.G.
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:28 AM   #2
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Hi Graham,

Yes, I do ki-atsu and have been using it to good effect for over 15 years. I mostly get called on by students who have a minor injury, sometimes picked up during practice, sometimes not. I also sometimes offer it to work colleagues if they have any aches or pains that are giving them gyp. Just about everyone reports an easing of the problem they are having. Which is good, as I don't guarantee any cure, only that "it may help".

How does it help in aikido? I can't say that I have even thought of it like that I just see it as an integral part of what I do.

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:09 AM   #3
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
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England
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Graham

"""Personally I've found it to be amazing for Ki developement """

It is beyond my understanding of Kiatsu how you find to be ``amazing for Ki development `` ...still ~ what ever floats your boat.
In the 1950s /60s all the early dan grades were taught Kiatsu by both Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and Ken Williams Sensei.
I am pleased to see from Marks comments that Sensei Williams is still teaching Kiatsu..
It is almost a lost art..........

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:37 PM   #4
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Graham,

Yes, I do ki-atsu and have been using it to good effect for over 15 years. I mostly get called on by students who have a minor injury, sometimes picked up during practice, sometimes not. I also sometimes offer it to work colleagues if they have any aches or pains that are giving them gyp. Just about everyone reports an easing of the problem they are having. Which is good, as I don't guarantee any cure, only that "it may help".

How does it help in aikido? I can't say that I have even thought of it like that I just see it as an integral part of what I do.

regards

Mark
Hi Mark. Thanks for the response.

I naver thought of it as Aikido or a way to help my Aikido either but then I asked myself that question and realized it had in a number of ways.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:41 PM   #5
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Graham

"""Personally I've found it to be amazing for Ki developement """

It is beyond my understanding of Kiatsu how you find to be ``amazing for Ki development `` ...still ~ what ever floats your boat.
In the 1950s /60s all the early dan grades were taught Kiatsu by both Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and Ken Williams Sensei.
I am pleased to see from Marks comments that Sensei Williams is still teaching Kiatsu..
It is almost a lost art..........

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/
Henry.
Thanks for the response. Very interesting.

Regards. G.
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Old 08-30-2011, 11:08 PM   #6
ronin67
Location: Sagamihara
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Posts: 27
Japan
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi.
Someone asked me the other day where I learned that 'healing thing' I do and it got me wondering. I learned Ki-atsu in Aikido many years ago and now am very confident in my use of it but for some reason I've never really considered how many Aikido people do it?

So I suddenly had a few interesting questions I'd like to ask. Personally I've found it to be amazing for Ki developement and indeed reality so it led me to wan't to ask the following:

1) Does anyone personally do Ki-atsu and would like to say in what way it helps them in Aikido?

2) Does anyone have any personal experience of Ki-atsu and would like to share it?

Regards.G.
Having studied Shin Shin Toistu Aikido since 1994 (not very long by any stretch of the imagination), I have gone through Ki-atsu classes and was shown how to extend your KI to someone else, on specific body parts that may be injured or strained. From my experience, you are extending KI to the injuried part of the body, to regenerate that person's own KI in that injuried area. However, repeated kiatsu treatment can lead to that person becoming healed. Again, from my experience, you extending Ki to another thru kiatsu, brings there own Ki back up to its normal level, so the normal healing process can start. It isn't some miricle cure, it just diverts the energy from that person's spirit (which is where KI generates from) to the area most affected by ailment or injury.

I think the best way to see if it really works, is trying it on someone who will give you their honest/innocent feelings on whether it works or not. My daughter, injured her leg when she fell down one day while playing on the steps (what is it with kids and steps anyway). I started applying kiatsu to the area she said hurt. After about a minute I asked her if it felt better, she stated "yes". In the end it does help your Aikido by further developing "How" to extend KI. When you get the positive feedback after doing Kiatsu on someone, it reaffirms what your sensei has been telling you all along; Ki extension is real energy guiding your movement and your opponents movement. The hard part is learning to extend Ki in everything you do, not just in the dojo training or when performing kiatsu.

However, before you start immersing yourself in kiatsu, I would recommend getting the basic KI breathing priciples down before venturing into kiatsu. One step at a time grasshopper.

May God bless!

Ed

Last edited by ronin67 : 08-30-2011 at 11:15 PM.

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:02 AM   #7
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Kiatsu certainly helped my aikido! My teacher was a serious softball player and injured his shoulder over thirty years ago while playing. His brother-in-law practiced aikido and introduced him to his teacher for kiatsu treatment. Apparently the treatment worked and Sensei has been studying and teaching aikido since that time. Absent kiatsu, our dojo wouldn't exist today and our teacher would probably be watching softball.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 08-31-2011, 02:03 AM   #8
Richard Sanchez
Location: SE Asia
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Thailand
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

IMO Kiatsu is a simple introduction to Japanese therapy that is interesting to Aikido people as it does utilize certain aspects of ‘Ki', albeit on a very basic level. I first read Tohei's pink book around 1984 as an Aikido Shodan ready to soak everything up. Although we were not a Ki Society dojo we used similar practices after training- as many martial arts dojos did. (My Japanese Karate teacher was a shiatsu practitioner and my Wing Chin Sifu had his own take based on Tui na. ) It was influential for me in that it led me to further exploration of Oriental Medicine and I later became a professional practitioner and teacher of a number of Therapies.

In hindsight and without wishing to sound dismissive, the Kiatsu book was simply a rehash of traditional folk therapy with some of Tohei's formative Ki principles added. If someone else had written it I doubt whether it would have been as popular. I never had the opportunity to experience Kiatsu from Tohei himself, (IHTBF?) so I do not know if there was more to it than is presented in his book or by his students. However, the people who I have felt who have ‘trained' in Kiatsu have never had anything special. They could easily have obtained the same or better skills by taking a short course in Shiatsu. (As an experienced professional therapist it is easy to pick those who have ‘it'- and those who don't. Now where have I heard that before?)

People who are interested in learning more about Ki work could consider Meridian Shiatsu, also known nowadays as Masunaga Shiatsu, or Zen Shiatsu in the USA, which works with Ki at a much deeper and more practical level. See Wiki link here for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Shiatsu

While I cannot say that Kiatsu itself had any effect on my Aikido I can say that it led to me practices that definitely did. Having ‘hands on' experience with patients 8-hours a day, 6 days a week teaches you a lot about the human body- particularly feeling energy, intent, center, Ki, Qi, however you like to describe it. For example: think kuzushi when turning the ‘dead weight' of an injured 110KG rugby player on a massage table built for lighter weights.

Of course, if you commit to any ‘hands on' practice with the same intensity you can develop a similar sensitivity- if you have a good teacher and focus.

I will add that there are many forms of Shiatsu some of which use Ki while others, such as the mainstream and more western Namikoshi method, do not. There are as many different styles of Shiatsu and related therapies such as Kiatsu as there are styles in Aikido and the discussions and arguments about the meaning of ‘ki' etc. are common in that community too! At least that is my experience. Think Yoshinkan=Namikoshi, Aikikai= Masunaga, Ki-Society: Reiki/Kiatsu.

Just my 2 Baht.
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Old 09-13-2011, 05:13 PM   #9
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Having studied Shin Shin Toistu Aikido since 1994 (not very long by any stretch of the imagination), I have gone through Ki-atsu classes and was shown how to extend your KI to someone else, on specific body parts that may be injured or strained. From my experience, you are extending KI to the injuried part of the body, to regenerate that person's own KI in that injuried area. However, repeated kiatsu treatment can lead to that person becoming healed. Again, from my experience, you extending Ki to another thru kiatsu, brings there own Ki back up to its normal level, so the normal healing process can start. It isn't some miricle cure, it just diverts the energy from that person's spirit (which is where KI generates from) to the area most affected by ailment or injury.

I think the best way to see if it really works, is trying it on someone who will give you their honest/innocent feelings on whether it works or not. My daughter, injured her leg when she fell down one day while playing on the steps (what is it with kids and steps anyway). I started applying kiatsu to the area she said hurt. After about a minute I asked her if it felt better, she stated "yes". In the end it does help your Aikido by further developing "How" to extend KI. When you get the positive feedback after doing Kiatsu on someone, it reaffirms what your sensei has been telling you all along; Ki extension is real energy guiding your movement and your opponents movement. The hard part is learning to extend Ki in everything you do, not just in the dojo training or when performing kiatsu.

However, before you start immersing yourself in kiatsu, I would recommend getting the basic KI breathing priciples down before venturing into kiatsu. One step at a time grasshopper.

May God bless!

Ed
Hi Ed. Must have missed this one. Glad to see you have a reality on it.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-13-2011, 05:29 PM   #10
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Hi Richard.
Nice informative post.

I too have met many who do 'similar' things and as you say there are some good, many not so. Here in London there has been A great interest in Reiki Therapy over the last few years but alas, from my point of view, I have met too many who have done a short course and got certificates but.......

As far as Kiatsu goes for me I have done it for many years and as with Aikido or anything really skill and ability is hard learned. It's not therefore the thing, ie: Kiatsu that should be judged but rather how good the person is who is doing it.

I would say Kiatsu it'self is a journey and fits in perfectly with the way I do Aikido.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-14-2011, 06:35 AM   #11
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Richard.
Nice informative post.

I too have met many who do 'similar' things and as you say there are some good, many not so. Here in London there has been A great interest in Reiki Therapy over the last few years but alas, from my point of view, I have met too many who have done a short course and got certificates but.......

As far as Kiatsu goes for me I have done it for many years and as with Aikido or anything really skill and ability is hard learned. It's not therefore the thing, ie: Kiatsu that should be judged but rather how good the person is who is doing it.

I would say Kiatsu it'self is a journey and fits in perfectly with the way I do Aikido. Regards.G.
Graham

From your videos I have seen and commented on your interpretation of Aikido, I cannot comment as have not seen your interpretation of Kiatsu - I am a little concerned as you state
your Kiatsu fits in perfectly with the way you do Aikido.
Kiatsu can be beneficial in good hands - it can also be dangerous in the wrong hands.
May I ask who taught you your Kiatsu ?

Regards

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 09-14-2011, 09:52 PM   #12
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Kiatsu can be beneficial in good hands - it can also be dangerous in the wrong hands. Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Sir T, you mentioned elsewhere that you had some early training in kiatsu.

Would you be so kind as to tell us some things about that training and the purpose of kiatsu as you were taught?

To your health.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 09-15-2011, 02:07 AM   #13
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Sir T, you mentioned elsewhere that you had some early training in kiatsu.
Would you be so kind as to tell us some things about that training and the purpose of kiatsu as you were taught?
To your health.

David
Hi David

In the 1950s all dan grades for Aikido and Judo were taught Kiatsu by Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and Ken Williams Sensei.
Mark Freeman. message 2. Mark is a present day student of Williams Sensei and gives an excellent reply to the op.
We were taught to treat minor injuries and strains /dislocations. The worst dislocation I ever saw at the Hut Dojo was a dislocated elbow from a bad ukemi - I would not have touched it, Williams Sensei dealt with it immediatley, I was impressed.
Massage and manipulation can often help the injured body.

In 1961 in conversation with with Abbe Sensei I told him that my father had a lower back injury and was unable to get off the bed, the doctor said there was nothing they could do other than lay him on hard bed and several weeks rest.
The problem was, we were booked to go to Spain the next day. Abbe Sensei insisted I take him to see may father. After introducing my father to Sensei, we ( myself and Bill Woods ) were asked to leave the room.
a few minutes later the door opened and out came Abbe Sensei followed by my father. We, the family went to Spain the next day.

I see Kiatsu as an asset to my Aikido like my Gi and the mats and the dojo.
I was going to add a photo of Abbe Sensei teaching Kiatsu but I don't know how.
Henry
British Aikido
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Hellis : 09-15-2011 at 02:11 AM.
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Old 09-15-2011, 08:19 AM   #14
David Orange
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
I see Kiatsu as an asset to my Aikido like my Gi and the mats and the dojo.
I was going to add a photo of Abbe Sensei teaching Kiatsu but I don't know how.
Thanks, Sensei.

Too bad you can't link a photo, but you gave a great picture with words. I can see Abbe Sensei coming out of that room with your father following!

I was taught to direct my ki into an injured area, but not long after that, we were told to forget about ki, don't think about it, don't talk about it, just do technical practice. Loooking back, we got a lot of good technical training, but I think it was a mistake to delete the teachings on ki.

Were you able to make your US visit this year?

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 09-15-2011, 09:53 AM   #15
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Thanks, Sensei.

Too bad you can't link a photo, but you gave a great picture with words. I can see Abbe Sensei coming out of that room with your father following!

I was taught to direct my ki into an injured area, but not long after that, we were told to forget about ki, don't think about it, don't talk about it, just do technical practice. Loooking back, we got a lot of good technical training, but I think it was a mistake to delete the teachings on ki.

Were you able to make your US visit this year?

Best to you.

David
David

The photos may be on site soon, thanks to an offer from Hugh Beyer.

You say that you were told to forget about Ki, not to talk about it, that is how it was with Abbe Sensei, after a given time of training Ki is a part of your daily Aikido, and applied as such, why keep talking about it as if it is an added extra.

Another story.
Abbe Sensei was travelling down Chiswick High Rd London in the back of a car, there was a serious traffic jam, above the tops of the cars one could see a large red London bus at an angle across the road.
After a few minutes Abbe Sensei got out of the car and headed to the scene of the accident, there was a large Alsation with its hindquaters trapped under the front wheel, the dog sounded like a pack of wolves.
Abbe Sensei approached and was told to leave by a police officer, he said something and was allowed to approach the dog, he touched the dogs head and sudenly the dog was quiet, and just as the dog went quiet Abbe Sensei made a slight movent of his hand and the dog was dead.
The police officer said to Sensei, I don't know what you did ? but that was the most amazing thing I have ever seen.
Abbe Sensei got back in the car and simply said " necessary drive on ".
I have not yet visited the USA as I have a chest infection that seven courses of antibiotics will not shift, and I am not and never was a smoker .........

Henry

British Aikido
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Hellis : 09-15-2011 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 09-15-2011, 10:30 AM   #16
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Ellis Sensei kindly sent me his photos of Abbe Sensei so that I could post them here for your viewing pleasure:







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Old 09-15-2011, 12:04 PM   #17
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
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Malaysia
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Nice!

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:49 PM   #18
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Graham

From your videos I have seen and commented on your interpretation of Aikido, I cannot comment as have not seen your interpretation of Kiatsu - I am a little concerned as you state
your Kiatsu fits in perfectly with the way you do Aikido.
Kiatsu can be beneficial in good hands - it can also be dangerous in the wrong hands.
May I ask who taught you your Kiatsu ?

Regards

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Hi Henry.
At first I wondered what you were on about especially saying how it's dangerous in the wrong hands.

However, seeing your explanations I see where you're coming from.

I also witnessed various handlings done my teacher back in the eighties. The ones where he was doing manipulations seemed normal to us but when he did light touches to release aches and pains and tense necks etc' we wondered what the hell it was. He told us it was Kiatsu and would just say it's to do with Ki.

Five years later through our continuous questioning he decided two of us could start learning it.

He introduced us to a book by Tohei called Kiatsu and the following week started us on a programme after training, once a week, learning Kiatsu.

Different to how you describe in as much as it wasn't so much to do with manipulations but more to do with using Ki to relax tenseness in the body and inducing the other persons Ki to flow.

Having said that we were also taught how to, once we had relaxed the muscles and tendons in the shoulders and neck and back to then using two thumbs run down the spine to check the alignment of the vertebrae and thus what to do there including how to crick the neck etc.

Emphasis however as per Toheis book was learning how to relax anothers body and thus how to unblock trapped Ki.

His attitude therefore was not the same as Abbe Sensei but more like the attitude of Tohei Sensei. So it is the art of relaxing using Ki and thus speeds up healing and rejuvanates the persons energy.

Practicing this way led to the developement of great focus and centre for the practitioner for the best results come from lightly touching, ie: not pressure as in lots of forms of shiatsu.

Thus done with full attention and correctly you can detect the areas of locked Ki and release them without force much like Aikido. The theory being that the locked or blocked Ki is what is prventing the body healing properly.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-15-2011, 01:02 PM   #19
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

My teacher, Imaizumi Sensei, was the #2 person under Tohei Sensei for a substantial period of time. Henry Ellis' description of Abe Sensei doing Ki-atsu is almost identical to that which Imaizumi Sensei did and does. This is both through observation, and personal experiences of having him work on me.

It is logical to conclude that Graham's teacher did not have first hand experience from Tohei Sensei in how to do Ki-atsu, let alone teach it, but merely made assumptions based upon what he thought that he knew. This is yet another instance of Graham continuing down a path based on incorrect assumptions.

Henry, do you know who Abe Sensei learned ki-atsu from?

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-15-2011, 01:17 PM   #20
Keith Larman
Location: California
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

We do the same in Seidokan Aikido. R. Kobayashi learned from Tohei directly as well as others. I've not seen anything about dislocations, but for any variety of things I've seen it done and been taught it in a manner consistent with Mr. Ellis. Had a session done on my aching back yesterday as a matter of fact. The science background in me constantly wonders about it, but... I cannot argue with the anecdotal aspect, especially when it's my anecdote about it working for me.

I sometimes deal with patella subluxation (one kneecap likes to spontaneously dislocate). Had it happen a couple times in class and one of our seniors has been there on a few occasions. On those occasions with only about 10 minutes of work I've been vastly better than other occasions when he wasn't there. So... Cool stuff. Interesting stuff.

Just fwiw.

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Old 09-15-2011, 01:42 PM   #21
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Marc
Sorry I don't know who Abbe Sensei learned Kiatsu from, as he spent most of his young life at the Butokukwai I can only assume it would have been a part of his studies.

In the 1990s I was in New Mexico, I was asked to take part in a stage play version of " A Book of Five Rings " at the NM University theatre. I played the part of the swordsman Sasaki Kojiro, as I was attacked by `Musashi` we were to make shoulder to shoulder contact, as we made contact Musashi bounced off me and went through the paper trees and bushes, he was in agony, on a quick inspection I saw he had a dislocated shoulder, I put the shoulder back and within minutes he was back on stage `` a hero to all the cast ``

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 09-15-2011, 02:11 PM   #22
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

My favorite was when Imaizumi Sensei decided to address the calcium deposits in my right elbow. I Had not been able to straighten out that elbow for a good number of years. I was up as uke in front of the class for what I thought was an ude-katame. When he came down on my elbow, it was like I was struck by lightening! When my body re-wired itself and I stood up again, I noticed that my elbow felt different and moved freely with full range of motion. He was just looking at me and smiled. After class, I asked him what he did. He said that he thought that my elbow could use some ki-atsu and he gave a slight chuckle. I thanked him and asked him if he would be so kind as to give me some kind of warning before he short-circuited me again!

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-15-2011, 03:01 PM   #23
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I sometimes deal with patella subluxation (one kneecap likes to spontaneously dislocate).
Last week my kneecap dislocated as my son was getting off my lap. No fun!

I don't have any real kiatsu training or experience, but I would say I picked up a thing or two related to kiatsu. I noticed that my ability to give massages improved quite a bit from my Aikido training: how to touch "soft" so I can get higher pressures without pain (my sense of it at least); greater intuition for how to apply pressure in general.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-15-2011, 06:24 PM   #24
Richard Sanchez
Location: SE Asia
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 24
Thailand
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

I think that what is being discussed is the difference between the skills acquired by pre WW11 teachers and those who practice the methods in Tohei's Kiatsu book.

Prior to WW11 most Japanese martial artists would have been exposed to various ‘traditional' therapies such as Seikotsu for bone setting, Anma, Se Tai So, acupressure, moxa, meridian therapy and acupuncture, This was the Japanese medicine of the time and was commonly used in MA dojos to treat injuries and was often a normal part of MA training. They were very effective therapies and could either be simple or sophisticated depending on the level of training, or interest, of the practitioner. Bone setting, for example, is still practiced in Japan and is covered by insurance- whereas Chiropractic isn't.

Teachers such as Abbe Sensei would have had a lot of exposure to the rich history of Traditional Japanese Medicine so its not surprising that he could perform the feats described by Henry Sensei - but they are far removed from the Kiatsu that Graham is talking about.
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Old 09-15-2011, 06:37 PM   #25
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: Using Ki. Ki-atsu.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
My teacher, Imaizumi Sensei, was the #2 person under Tohei Sensei for a substantial period of time. Henry Ellis' description of Abe Sensei doing Ki-atsu is almost identical to that which Imaizumi Sensei did and does. This is both through observation, and personal experiences of having him work on me.

It is logical to conclude that Graham's teacher did not have first hand experience from Tohei Sensei in how to do Ki-atsu, let alone teach it, but merely made assumptions based upon what he thought that he knew. This is yet another instance of Graham continuing down a path based on incorrect assumptions.

Henry, do you know who Abe Sensei learned ki-atsu from?

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Marc. Once again you show your strange logic. Tell me if you would some rules, principles, to be followed in Kiatsu as per Tohei.

As far as I know the techniques of dealing with dislocations etc. were around for centuries especially in martial arts, hence the need for and general use for them by senior instructors. these were nothing to do with Kiatsu. Therefore calling them Kiatsu is more of a colloquialism, a bit generalized. Not strictly Kiatsu.

My brother in law is an osteopath and I have done Aikido with a chiroprachter who knew all the techniques to do with such things but neither would profess any knowledge of Kiatsu.

Bottom line is that it is simply to do with the art and practice of extending Ki. Full stop. To compare it to anything in the western world or indeed eastern for that matter would be to call it colloquially a form of 'healing hands' or if you want to get into technical pathways of Ki in the body then you could see a possible connection with acupuncture or acupressure etc. in theory.

Anyway, if certain instructors found it best just to class their skills or communicate them as Kiatsu for ease of communication then so be it.

Finally I will offer a short story, very recent, and not mine but one I cherish. My brother in law, also Aikido teacher and best friend recently went to visit our old teacher due to my hearing that something was up. He found on visiting that he had been and was very ill and although no longer in hospital was unable to teach or do much at all. As he told me he said he looked very frail and ghostly looking and all the family were very worried.

Bob, my friend, got all the diagnosis details and checked up the medications to get a picture of what the scene was, talked to the family and offered his help. (he is also a qualified homeopath) He then proceeded to give him a feww sessions of spiritual Kiatsu over the period of a week. At the end of the week Mike was up and running again. Bob meanwhile got a nutritional plan and diet plan from one of his associates, bought him a blender and instructed his wife on how to make some 'live energy' drinks with it to rehabillitate the intestines. By the end of the second week he was back in the dojo teaching, his dojo is now a building in his garden. He hadn't personally been able to teach there for months.

He of course was very happy with things once again and pleased with the progress of his old student. For me it only served to validate our progress and I joked to our friends how the student had returned to help the master in a time of need and thus I cherish that particular episode.

As usual with comments made by the uninformed I just smile for I know the in life actions and results and my way and my path.

Life is good.

Regards G.
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