Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-01-2011, 11:37 AM   #176
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I respect the position of those that may want to use this forum for their 'how to' stuff - so how about if Jun just creates another section in the forum strictly for that - those that want to exchange detailed 'how to' stuff can, and those that do not, can just stay out of that section and reserve their opinions for threads in the forum's other sections.

Greg
Good overall post, Greg, although I don't know if yet another section of the AW forum is necessary. I usually look to the "Training" and "Techniques" sections for "technical" discussions. Assuming that the, or at least a, primary goal of posts on AW regarding internal skills is how IS principles and exercises can be applied to aikido, then the exchange of detailed "how to" material could logically be placed there, or in the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" page as a specifically "technical" thread, so indicated in the initial post.

What ruins the "technical" discussions are the personal snipings and not-so-hidden agendas. Apparently even the tightly-controlled QiJin forum is not immune to this aspect of human nature.

I think it's a lot to ask of Jun to moderate every aspect of what are supposed to be discussions among adults with ostensibly common interests and training goals. I for one appreciate him making this forum available, and have learned a lot from what the aikido community shares. It's really up to each of us individually to police our own posts and refrain from diatribe, subtle or overt, where none is called for.
 
Old 02-01-2011, 12:00 PM   #177
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Good overall post, Greg, although I don't know if yet another section of the AW forum is necessary. I usually look to the "Training" and "Techniques" sections for "technical" discussions. Assuming that the, or at least a, primary goal of posts on AW regarding internal skills is how IS principles and exercises can be applied to aikido, then the exchange of detailed "how to" material could logically be placed there, or in the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" page as a specifically "technical" thread, so indicated in the initial post.

What ruins the "technical" discussions are the personal snipings and not-so-hidden agendas. Apparently even the tightly-controlled QiJin forum is not immune to this aspect of human nature.

I think it's a lot to ask of Jun to moderate every aspect of what are supposed to be discussions among adults with ostensibly common interests and training goals. I for one appreciate him making this forum available, and have learned a lot from what the aikido community shares. It's really up to each of us individually to police our own posts and refrain from diatribe, subtle or overt, where none is called for.
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the comments. My basic point was that there should be a segregated part of the forum where those that want to focus on that type of stuff can go and be left alone to do as they want with those of a like mind. That would leave the rest of the forum available for those not of that mindset to feel safe from those that like to prey on them simply because they do not want to discuss a topic to the extent of some others, etc.

Greg
 
Old 02-01-2011, 12:30 PM   #178
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the comments. My basic point was that there should be a segregated part of the forum where those that want to focus on that type of stuff can go and be left alone to do as they want with those of a like mind. That would leave the rest of the forum available for those not of that mindset to feel safe from those that like to prey on them simply because they do not want to discuss a topic to the extent of some others, etc.

Greg
hi Greg--

Understood. In the sense you've described, I see potential value in separate sandboxes, as long as those playing in one can see what is going on in the other and agreeably participate within the more defined parameters of the other sandbox, if they choose to. As with any online community, it ultimately still remains up to each individual member to monitor and police their own posts to move discussion forward.
 
Old 02-02-2011, 10:44 AM   #179
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,740
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

helloooooo *echo echo echo*......

was hoping someone else besides me discussing the technical stuffs. ok, so moving on to the Unity part. and it isn't about getting together and singing kumbaya.

Unity, or become one. once you have "connected" with uke, you can start focus on being "sticky" like glue to the other person. however, unlike the normal stickiness, you are the control portion of the stickiness. Bud mentioned the 4-legged animal. essentially, you and uke are now a 4-legged animal (could be a cow or a donkey where i would be the front end and the rest of you folks can be the other end, and you know who you are. ) . so, if you view the arms are now the spine of such animal, all the force and sensitivity traverse through the spine. the difficult here is nage has to be soft and sensitive enough to detect changes in uke physical body. this allows nage to be able to send energy into specifics area of uke body similar to being able to send impulse to your own legs to move. Ikeda sensei could demonstrate on which part of uke's body he could send his energy to. this is a characteristic, actually basic requirement, of Unity. you heard folks mentioned "center to center" connection. for years i paid lips service on "center to center connection", because i couldn't really feel it. ask yourself this question, can i feel my uke's shoulders, hips, legs, and so on through the arm connection? if you can't, then you don't have it. one way to test, is having uke tensing various parts of his/her/it body and see if you can feel it.

end my thought on Unity (methink). you IS blokes out there should jump in and help me out here. otherwise, i have to hunt you down and start to take name and kick ass. although, i have not really understood the part about taking names. the part about kick ass, i got.
 
Old 02-02-2011, 12:52 PM   #180
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,121
Online
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Phi, thanks for the descriptions leading to the punji pit. "Please Sir, may I have more?"

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
 
Old 02-03-2011, 12:56 AM   #181
Amassus
 
Amassus's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Musubi Ryu/ Yoshin Wadokan
Location: Hamilton
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 305
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
was hoping someone else besides me discussing the technical stuffs
Phi, thank you for your input in this thread. Of all the posts, I can make sense of your's the most. The odd dab of humour you add is great too.

As a complete beginner, I am trying stuff out at home and then taking it to the dojo to test it. Your comments are really clarifying what I should be feeling and looking for and I thank you for that.

So, have you discussed point 3? Or was 'unity' point 3? I'll have to go back and have a look

Dean.

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
 
Old 02-03-2011, 11:27 PM   #182
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 659
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

I watched video of Ikeda Sensei tonight and spent all of the two hour class working on Internal aspects, Now, this is common in our class, but tonight (as a beginner on this stuff) I I had a *click* moment watching Sensei demonstrate something very simple.
As Phi has said, connect, unity, movement of inside,,,,,I was ALWAYS just trying, untill Ikeda Sensei said at seminar, to just connect center/center... he pointed out that he was connecting at various times with ukes shoulder, or elbow, or hip etc.
When you use the balanced/integrated structure, you connect to any point and change your focus to another through the ukes center....

Phi said it before I did, but I found....as said before, that the description is EXACTLY what Sensei said it was.
at least as far as my (very very limited) grasp of it all goes.

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
 
Old 02-04-2011, 05:18 AM   #183
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,703
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Lan Powers wrote: View Post
the description is EXACTLY what Sensei said it was.
When someone can walk the talk, trust the talk.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 02-04-2011, 07:26 AM   #184
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Lan Powers wrote: View Post
As Phi has said, connect, unity, movement of inside
The idea of make a connection so that you become one unit with your opponent or an object and then moving your middle as the control of the joined 'unit' is the essence of a great cosmological point. You 'become one' with anything and everything in your environment and you become the central controller of your own universe... that's one way to put it and you begin to see how it is not some spiritualistic or metaphysical point. It is an approach based on a realistic phenomenon; living like this become the Tao.

The unfortunate thing is that the beauty of this reality-based concept usually becomes distorted into quasi-spiritualistic discussions in which nice-sounding words turn endlessly around obvious and often-pretended moralisms uttered by the self-absorbed. The Tao is supposed to be a journey, not a solipsism.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-04-2011, 09:59 AM   #185
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The idea of make a connection so that you become one unit with your opponent or an object and then moving your middle as the control of the joined 'unit' is the essence of a great cosmological point. You 'become one' with anything and everything in your environment and you become the central controller of your own universe... that's one way to put it and you begin to see how it is not some spiritualistic or metaphysical point. It is an approach based on a realistic phenomenon; living like this become the Tao.

The unfortunate thing is that the beauty of this reality-based concept usually becomes distorted into quasi-spiritualistic discussions in which nice-sounding words turn endlessly around obvious and often-pretended moralisms uttered by the self-absorbed. The Tao is supposed to be a journey, not a solipsism.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
Hi Mike,

I am basing all of my aikido practice and teaching on this idea of connection, unity, move from the inside. It's only really sunk in so that I 'know' it on a fundamental level, relatively recently. The point of my agreement is not in the fact that I can do it. It is the fact that there is nothing mystical or magical about it. It's a mind body state that is available to those who want to do what needs to be done to gain it.

Thanks, a good post.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 02-04-2011, 10:03 AM   #186
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,740
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The Tao is supposed to be a journey, not a solipsism.

Mike Sigman
mike, stop using big word. i had to go about looking up the thing and not appreciate in clearing some specious space in my brain to hold the thing. we are martial artists, descendant of barbarians (sons of barbara if you will. would like to know who's the hell is barbara), we don't need to know them big words. just the small one syllable word like ugh, ooo, ahh, arrgghh work for us. and who the hell is Tao?
 
Old 02-04-2011, 10:07 AM   #187
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
It's a mind body state that is available to those who want to do what needs to be done to gain it.
Well put, Mark. If people can get enough basic kokyu, suit (ki) and hara (these develop over time) and then put that central idea of "make unit connection; move center", Aikido can move ahead by leaps and bounds. The tricky question is getting the basic information about ki, kokyu, and hara into peoples' movements because those skills are antithetical to normal movement. As the old Chinese saying goes: "These things are not intuitive, but must be learned".

Ikeda is making a good effort at teaching in that direction.

Mike
 
Old 02-04-2011, 12:20 PM   #188
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,740
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

some more on the "center to center connection" which is the result of Unity. i have seen explanation on "center to center connection" in which nage turned his/her/its body to line up his/her/its body's center line to uke's body center line. got news for you if you are doing that sort of thing. that's not "center to center connection". that is "lining up center line to center line".

you can have C2CC (tired of typing the whole thing) where nage's center line point in a different direction from uke's center line. and yet, still have Unity. this is for folks who think that one should line up the body structure in order to have C2CC. it helped, but not a requirement. structure isn't kokyu. i have seen Ikeda sensei in a ridiculous compromise positions (not the karma sutra kind. get your head out of the gutter. you people are sicked to even think of such thing! of course, now you have a different image in your head. ). yet, while in such position, he still could demonstrate C2CC and affected uke's balance. the C2CC is internal kind of linkage. we are talking about internal skills, right.
 
Old 02-04-2011, 12:44 PM   #189
Shadowfax
 
Shadowfax's Avatar
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido, Pitsburgh PA
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 882
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i have seen Ikeda sensei in a ridiculous compromise positions (not the karma sutra kind. get your head out of the gutter. you people are sicked to even think of such thing! of course, now you have a different image in your head. ). yet, while in such position, he still could demonstrate C2CC and affected uke's balance.
Actually I heard someone ask him about this one evening, after a seminar. His answer was, "I just move (as in relocate) my center to my hand".

So actually he is lined up center to center still. His center is just in a different place.

Don't ask me how he does that. I'm still trying to work it out myself.
 
Old 02-04-2011, 12:49 PM   #190
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the C2CC is internal kind of linkage. we are talking about internal skills, right.
I agree, the C2CC (you might want to tm that abbreviation Phi ) is not reliant on the physical set up you mention.

I suggest that it can be taken 1 step further than is being mentioned. C2CC is possible to achieve before any physical contact is made at all. Herein lies 'aiki' or my understanding of it at least. The hara/centre/dantien/onepoint is as much a mental concept as a physical one, C2CC is achieved as much with the mind as with the body.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 02-04-2011, 01:21 PM   #191
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,703
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

In reference to connection, I remember Ikeda Sensei saying it was like a bolt, you need to tighten it (take out the slack). What I experience is a slight spiral (turning his wrist turned my wrist and structure) from his center through our arms into my center (usually aimed at a kuzushi point to take balance).

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 02-04-2011, 01:25 PM   #192
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,703
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
It's a mind body state that is available to those who want to do what needs to be done to gain it.
Yes agreed.

IMHO, the mind aims (extends) the connection the body makes.

Well said. Compliments.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 02-04-2011, 02:40 PM   #193
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 659
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

To reference what Cherie mentioned about moving the center to his hand....
Ikeda Sensei would connect (at the last seminar I was priviledged to attend), and then maintain the connection he established through his hand, even as his body dis-connected and moved freely in other directions, this allowed him to make his position not be a factor in the "driving of the four legged unit" untill he moved his hand and effected ukes center.

remarkable really to watch
even more remarkable to hear it explained and freely given to all watching.

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
 
Old 02-04-2011, 04:37 PM   #194
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Lan
That is a typical benefit to being connected- softness that is independent of the connection point. A deeper skill is to create kuzushi on contact and maintain it while you walk freely and fluidly in any direction. This can be very disconcerting to MAers who think "they got the stuff."
Harder still is being able to create kuzushi and "change" at speed with guys who know how to fight. Its not as dramatic or even visible, but they end up constantly " behind" or open and cannot feel thigs coming at them.

There are a lot of phenomena associated with IP/aiki. Not everyone stresses the same thing. One example might be bouncing someone out- pretty stupid or dangerous in certain venues...and yet not only welcomed but even sought after in others. I have seen certain professionals view it and say...why would I ever.....
I think its great that people are learning some things in IP/ aiki that they can incorporate into their aikido..I just haven't seen anyone yet that is really developed in that are. That said, at the rate some teachers are going in devoting themselves to a bipartison and dedicated work ethic....there is going to be a lot...and I mean years...of catching up to do..by both juniors and seniors in the art.
I am convinced that years from now people are going to be looking back at all of this dialogue and laughing...more or less saying .." Can you imagine that so many in Aikido argued AGAINST this?"

My hats off to Ikeda..but there are others already that he can't handle....and it's only going to make all parties improve even faster.
These are good times and guys like him...with his student mind...I suspect will always be at the forefront of forging ahead.
All the best
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-04-2011 at 04:41 PM.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 05:27 PM   #195
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,835
Offline
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Hi folks,

I am quite busy and I really have no time to sort through this at the moment. When I find myself with more time, I'll take a closer look to sort through all of your, frankly, rather off-topic and personal discussions.

For the time being -- thread closed.

And, in the mean time, I hope people here will really take a close(r) look at their own manner of conduct rather than someone else's. Just because someone else engages here in some manner does not excuse the same kind of behavior from yourself. And, lastly, I really do wish people would refrain from hanging "dirty laundry" from other discussion boards, websites, and communities here. This is not the place for these kinds of behaviors.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ki Eureka David Orange Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 45 01-23-2011 10:03 AM
Ki is Kindness. graham christian Spiritual 157 12-21-2010 09:36 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 06:05 PM
Another harassment question Tom28 Anonymous 119 12-01-2008 09:24 AM
A couple of short Chiba Sensei stories... David Edwards Humor 6 11-22-2005 07:20 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:39 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate