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Old 01-27-2011, 09:39 AM   #101
DH
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hmmm... I think you just cut and pasted a comment about the old Neijia List to manufacture an insult to someone who is not you.

Mike Sigman
Answer the question Mike
Who among your people, when they write here have you insulted by calling them a recently trained expert or BS artist?
Just answer the question...who?
It is reserved for those who train with others, among whom are; George, Marc, Mark, Rob, Greg...etc.
It should not be accepted here and it has nothing to do with you advocating clinical discussion does it?
How is it topic related?
How does it move the discussion forward?

Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-27-2011 at 09:50 AM.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 09:46 AM   #102
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hmmm... I think you just cut and pasted a comment about the old Neijia List to manufacture an insult to someone who is not you.

Mike Sigman
These are your words:

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
BTW, speaking of "pushing us forward", why don't you and some of the other recently-trained experts join in these conversations of analyzing and explaining how things work?
Since "recently-trained experts" is plural and since you directly included Marc as "you" in the sentence, there are at least two other people whom you deem as "recently-trained experts". Would you care to specify just whom you meant? That way, we would know for sure just whom you are demeaning. I would doubt that there are many people who would view your words as something other than a demeaning remark. If that's not what you meant, then please let us know exactly what you meant when you called people "recently-trained experts".
 
Old 01-27-2011, 09:52 AM   #103
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Can bandwidth on this stop? It's bad enough to have an interesting thread devolve into namecalling without a metaconversation about the namecalling....

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 01-27-2011, 09:52 AM   #104
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hope I didn't leave Marc floundering about specifics.
These jabs are not so subtle.
And in fact are seen for what they are.
The constant, recurring personal jabs, but delicately-enough phrased to provide plausible-deniability and a pretext to play a well-practiced victim-hood.

I wonder when Jun will lower a permanent ban-hammer on you?
 
Old 01-27-2011, 09:54 AM   #105
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

For better or worse - the method of transmission in Aikido (this applies to other arts as well) is to put the Sensei on a pedestal and then create a "discipleship" study body around the pedestal (with varying degrees of insanity, ranging from kooky to kult). If "martial" aspects of the art have been bleeding from the practice . . what mechanism exists to re-introduce them? If internal strength has been missing/lost/de-emphasized . . how can it be regained?

I think there's going to be risk and resistance no matter how you cut it. The resistance is self-evident, the teaching model in aikido is often people walking around telling juniors why their technique needs work. Sometimes it's even "showing" in a helpful way. Sometimes it's "showing in a less than helpful way. All it takes is a handful of seniors that do not possess internal skills to stamp out the eager study of juniors that are chasing them. I believe Dan is trying to address this with his "teachers only" seminars.

The risk is that there's many potential false starts, alienation of students/teachers, lack of consistency of instruction, lack of consolidated information, marginalization, etc. This shouldn't be an endeavor you elect because you want to be popular or hang out with the cool kids.

A risk may be that there's a club that promotes themselves as having the goods - where one or two might, so a student signs up and self-identifies as being on the path to getting the goods. But over time, what quality measures are in place to ensure real progress? These skills are perishable and fragile - you can see how they diminish in an art through non-transmission, too fast expansion (hello aikido and taiji) and a host of other things.

Does that mean the fanatic pursuit of the skills is not worthwhile? Well, I know the path I'm on and I wouldn't change it - but be ready to be potentially dismissed, manipulated, argued with, physically confronted, lied about, etc. (speaking generally from experiences I've heard from others on this path).

But then, the bottom line for me . . I think it's a question everyone needs to ask themselves about their training . .

Is it more important for you to belong, be in charge or achieve excellence?

In a perfect world you can have all three . . but I've yet to see them prioritized all at the same level across the board (not sure it's possible, to be honest).
 
Old 01-27-2011, 10:00 AM   #106
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
These are your words:
Since "recently-trained experts" is plural and since you directly included Marc as "you" in the sentence, there are at least two other people whom you deem as "recently-trained experts". Would you care to specify just whom you meant? That way, we would know for sure just whom you are demeaning. I would doubt that there are many people who would view your words as something other than a demeaning remark. If that's not what you meant, then please let us know exactly what you meant when you called people "recently-trained experts".
Lets not forget the constant reference to "hey..just tell us what you learned....ya know on the old Neijia list we sorted out all the BS artists pretty quick..."
Again..show me where this is aimed at his people?
How does it further discussion?
It is meant to close it and shut people up.
Dan
 
Old 01-27-2011, 10:05 AM   #107
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Can bandwidth on this stop? It's bad enough to have an interesting thread devolve into namecalling without a metaconversation about the namecalling....
Hello Janet,

I'm sure that for you and others, these things get old and tired very quickly. For that, I apologize. Yes, I do agree with you that it should stop. But it hasn't, and people are getting tired of the subtle and not so subtle jabs. In all seriousness, do you not care that good people are being demeaned?

With the best of intentions,
Mark
 
Old 01-27-2011, 10:06 AM   #108
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
But then, the bottom line for me . . I think it's a question everyone needs to ask themselves about their training . .

Is it more important for you to belong, be in charge or achieve excellence?
How about belonging to a group that focuses on excellence?

Which of course is easier said than done. Even fairly senior teachers have had trouble bringing their students along with them as they explore this stuff. The phrase "beginner's mind" keeps running through my head...

Katherine
 
Old 01-27-2011, 10:06 AM   #109
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Folks,

I'm tired of this. Really, I am.

Learn to conduct yourselves in a positive discussion without taking your discussion to a personal level. This applies to both people who "start" going down that road as well as those who participate in it after it's started. Bringing in your personal baggage against the people behind the posts is not welcome here.

Last warning.

-- Jun

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Old 01-27-2011, 10:07 AM   #110
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
For better or worse - the method of transmission in Aikido (this applies to other arts as well) is to put the Sensei on a pedestal and then create a "discipleship" study body around the pedestal (with varying degrees of insanity, ranging from kooky to kult). If "martial" aspects of the art have been bleeding from the practice . . what mechanism exists to re-introduce them? If internal strength has been missing/lost/de-emphasized . . how can it be regained?

I think there's going to be risk and resistance no matter how you cut it. The resistance is self-evident, the teaching model in aikido is often people walking around telling juniors why their technique needs work. Sometimes it's even "showing" in a helpful way. Sometimes it's "showing in a less than helpful way. All it takes is a handful of seniors that do not possess internal skills to stamp out the eager study of juniors that are chasing them. I believe Dan is trying to address this with his "teachers only" seminars.

The risk is that there's many potential false starts, alienation of students/teachers, lack of consistency of instruction, lack of consolidated information, marginalization, etc. This shouldn't be an endeavor you elect because you want to be popular or hang out with the cool kids.

A risk may be that there's a club that promotes themselves as having the goods - where one or two might, so a student signs up and self-identifies as being on the path to getting the goods. But over time, what quality measures are in place to ensure real progress? These skills are perishable and fragile - you can see how they diminish in an art through non-transmission, too fast expansion (hello aikido and taiji) and a host of other things.

Does that mean the fanatic pursuit of the skills is not worthwhile? Well, I know the path I'm on and I wouldn't change it - but be ready to be potentially dismissed, manipulated, argued with, physically confronted, lied about, etc. (speaking generally from experiences I've heard from others on this path).

But then, the bottom line for me . . I think it's a question everyone needs to ask themselves about their training . .

Is it more important for you to belong, be in charge or achieve excellence?

In a perfect world you can have all three . . but I've yet to see them prioritized all at the same level across the board (not sure it's possible, to be honest).
All good points
I think the answer is to continue to suggest people get out and about and meet who may or may not have it and let it sort itself out. We have good models on both sides; Chinese and Japanese.
There is bound to be false starts and people fumbling but good work is evident. I suggest that as people grow, they make rounds again. There is an education loop isn't there.
To me what is equally validating when you are going to invest so much of your time is to ask to meet successful students. If someone supposedly has a method that you are going to invest...say ten thousand hours into. Ya might want to meet others on that guys path. As you have pointed out yourself.
Most people are smart enough to figure out what is going to work for them. As George has suggested there are good teachers...who are extraordinary but had trouble teaching it. The good news is there are methods-as Ikeda has discovered- that help to understand things and fill in the gaps. Sort of like looking backward as you go forward.
I cannot tell you how many times I have heard from teachers.."Oh my God..this is what he was doing!"
Maybe it actually helps to appreciate both sides, and those extraordinary teachers all the more.
I thinkg the nature of the work actually prevents groups and cults. How can it when no one is claiming expertise and points to others to go and test and play and see what so and so has done with it. That continues to be the beauty of it...to see personal expression as people develop.
Cheers
Dan
.
It is a good

Last edited by DH : 01-27-2011 at 10:17 AM.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 10:15 AM   #111
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Hello Janet,

I'm sure that for you and others, these things get old and tired very quickly. For that, I apologize. Yes, I do agree with you that it should stop. But it hasn't, and people are getting tired of the subtle and not so subtle jabs. In all seriousness, do you not care that good people are being demeaned?

With the best of intentions,
Mark
Mark, in my own life I accept that I cannot control how others think of me and at a certain point simply refuse to engage in fruitless back and forth. At a certain point (and I'm talking about personal stuff, not issues of civil rights or human rights) It matters not who is "good" or "being demeaned" or right or wrong - it just takes one of the parties to politely bow and refuse to engage in what is essentially meaningless repetitions of the same two statements back and forth.
My two cents FWIW.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:19 AM   #112
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I'm sure that for you and others, these things get old and tired very quickly. For that, I apologize. Yes, I do agree with you that it should stop. But it hasn't, and people are getting tired of the subtle and not so subtle jabs. In all seriousness, do you not care that good people are being demeaned?
I think people are capable of considering the source and drawing their own conclusions.

I'm more concerned with the "thesis defense" attitude that often takes over these threads, where people seeking input on early explorations are dismissed as knowing nothing.

OF COURSE they don't know anything! They're beginners!

If the goal really is to encourage the development of internal skills -- as opposed to promoting some personal agenda -- squelching beginners doesn't help.

Katherine
 
Old 01-27-2011, 10:24 AM   #113
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
How about belonging to a group that focuses on excellence?

Which of course is easier said than done. Even fairly senior teachers have had trouble bringing their students along with them as they explore this stuff. The phrase "beginner's mind" keeps running through my head...

Katherine
Well, my goal was in response to students writing in here. It seems that when they came back they couldn't get time to train this in a dojo where:
a) They could not yet demonstrate real skills so who would believe them?
b) They did not have the authority to set training agendas and goals.

So, teaching the teachers at least (hey, not a perfect plan I know) was a way to establish a training time in a dojo and get this stuff jump started. Most guys have set a separate night for training IP/aiki. And guess what? It worked.
And those teachers are going out and training with other teaachers as well. So, In one fell swoop it got exposure on a much wider and more vetted scale.
I can only hope they go learn from others and explore these skills and then get inventive and expressive as the develop it in their own way. I think the next ten years are going to be a lot of fun.
Look at what people are saying about Ikeda, Gleason and Ledyard changing? There are going to be dozens of those examples to feel and play with, and they...are going to feed off each other as well.
Cheers'Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-27-2011 at 10:33 AM.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 11:37 AM   #114
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I think people are capable of considering the source and drawing their own conclusions.

I'm more concerned with the "thesis defense" attitude that often takes over these threads, where people seeking input on early explorations are dismissed as knowing nothing.

OF COURSE they don't know anything! They're beginners!

If the goal really is to encourage the development of internal skills -- as opposed to promoting some personal agenda -- squelching beginners doesn't help.

Katherine
+1 and Amen.
There is a lot of support and positive work being done with teachers and students, preserving their hard work and recognizing the pitfalls and trails and false starts...and....and...well we all know that road. Friendliness and support DOES NOT equal cults and group think and all the other negatives. These teachers I have met who stepped up are a self selected bunch of hard workers.
Look at Ikeda. How many teachers do YOU know who would put on a white belt and go do systema to feel it?
Or Gleason who wanted to come at me with everything he got to see the results.
Or George who has put himself out there with all manner of outside teachers.
Do we think that sort of mindset is into cult making? Nope. That is "permanent student mindset" that keeps these men going.
Good Grief if that doesn't say it all I don't know what does..
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 01-27-2011, 11:49 AM   #115
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Mark, in my own life I accept that I cannot control how others think of me and at a certain point simply refuse to engage in fruitless back and forth. At a certain point (and I'm talking about personal stuff, not issues of civil rights or human rights) It matters not who is "good" or "being demeaned" or right or wrong - it just takes one of the parties to politely bow and refuse to engage in what is essentially meaningless repetitions of the same two statements back and forth.
My two cents FWIW.
Janet,

Thank you for your reply. It would appear that we come from different worlds. You're probably from Earth while I think I'm an alien from beyond the galaxy.

Seriously, though, I can be a bit altruistic. I typically stand up for what's right and good, no matter if it's insignificant or overtly large. While in the Air Force (as a lowly airman no less), I made a Captain so made that he turned several shades of red and wouldn't talk to me. He asked me for my opinion and I gave it to him. He didn't like it.

There's a difference between someone's actions being out of sorts or in the grey area a couple of times and when someone's actions are always out of sorts from healthy interactions. We all tend to have patience with the former. But, I find most people like to ignore the latter. It's easier on them, especially online, especially when it's the "small stuff", and especially when the brunt of those unhealthy interactions are not directed at them.

That's where we differ, it seems. It does matter to me. The good. The right. It does matter that there is demeaning behavior. And I think it matters for both sides otherwise how would *I* know to change if no one addressed my demeaning behavior but let it go unchecked because people just bowed out? How would *I* become a better person? Not to mention the other side of the coin for the people who are being demeaned and looking out at the online audience and hearing crickets. What hope do they have for their view of fellow mankind/womankind from the deafening silence?

But I'm altruistic. We're from different worlds. Doesn't mean we're bad people, just different. And that's what makes this world so interesting to live in, no?

Mark
 
Old 01-27-2011, 12:38 PM   #116
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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I suggest that as people grow, they make rounds again. There is an education loop isn't there.
Yup, I think this is where I'm building to, again. At most another year of work, get the kids a bit older and then I'll start going to see what people are doing (or they'll keep trickling in to see me, here and there).

Heck, I might even start by visiting the local aikido dojos (fortunately, one is at a judo club, the other is at a bjj school)

Back on to the original topic . . what Ikeda Sensei is doing and showing. I have to call out/tease Lynn Seiser for immediately cautioning about talking about Ikeda. Folks, break out of this rut that the sensei is beyond reproach or examination - in Ikeda's case, obviously, he's trying to get people to get it!

If you aren't looking at everyone you meet in martial arts that has skills you want to emulate or surpass - through the lens of "how can I steal everything from this person as soon as possible" . . then you've already made a decison towards a slower track of learning.

Once again, the original topic - Ikeda, in every video demo I've seen - is showing a very basic, fundamental skill of making the connection between himself and the other person(s) such that there's one combined unit that he's controlling with his intent/middle/ground/gravity manipultion.

So, two discrete things - managing the connection between you and other person as a third force that naturally combines with the two primary forces (ground/gravity, earth/heaven) already acting upon you as a developed skill. The other one being training your body to most efficiently propogate, generate and manipulate those forces.

To me, what Ikeda is trying to show people is the very fundamental thing you need to be able to do to make any of the cooler stuff work. So the question comes back to those training with him - beyond how he manipultes you . . how well is he showing you how to do it back to him or others? How much is explicitly broken down and explained, versus - how much do you have to steal . . how are you stealing it, vetting it, testing it, breaking it down into components pieces, etc.?

Seems like a good topic of discussion
 
Old 01-27-2011, 12:50 PM   #117
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
To me, what Ikeda is trying to show people is the very fundamental thing you need to be able to do to make any of the cooler stuff work. So the question comes back to those training with him - beyond how he manipultes you . . how well is he showing you how to do it back to him or others? How much is explicitly broken down and explained, versus - how much do you have to steal . . how are you stealing it, vetting it, testing it, breaking it down into components pieces, etc.?

Seems like a good topic of discussion
budd, how far down the rabbit hole you want to go? it could be pretty deep, as in, do you want to go down as far as basic body conditioning? or at level where folks have the basic body conditioning already? just want to gauge the starting level.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 12:56 PM   #118
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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budd, how far down the rabbit hole you want to go? it could be pretty deep, as in, do you want to go down as far as basic body conditioning? or at level where folks have the basic body conditioning already? just want to gauge the starting level.
That's a fair question - and I think I'd keep it, for now within context of what Ikeda is showing and trying to get people to do? Is it the connection, joining, moveing the two-person single-unit? That's enough of a starter and if it then goes down the path of how to optimally condition the body to do that, great!

Anyhow, just suggestions for some productive discussion areas - certainly not my place to mandate anything.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 01:04 PM   #119
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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If you aren't looking at everyone you meet in martial arts that has skills you want to emulate or surpass - through the lens of "how can I steal everything from this person as soon as possible" . . then you've already made a decison towards a slower track of learning.
I don't look at it that way. Never have, really. I don't want to steal anything. I'm appalled at the concept of it overall. There should never be a dynamic where a student has to "steal" anything. Hard work, yes. Step by step learning, yes. Investigations of the art on one's own, yes. But, if the teacher is seeing that the students aren't getting it,that teacher knows how to teach it such that the students would get it, and doesn't teach because he/she thinks the students should "steal" it? Sorry, that's not a good teacher.

I don't want to "steal" to learn "as soon as possible". I want a learning environment that's healthy, strong, and creates bonds between all involved. Having to "steal" doesn't do that. Having to look at it like you need to steal it as soon as possible doesn't do that. This teaching mentality about students needing to be smart enough to figure things out for themselves is wrong.

The person that spends hours thinking of some new way to teach so that a student having trouble finally gets past the issues is a teacher. Someone worth training with. A person that just lets their student meander along waiting for the student to finally get it, isn't a teacher. This kind of person should be avoided.

This "stealing" is not the environment I want, not the kind of person I want to be, and definitely not the kind of teacher I'd like to become.

None of the teachers I've met and trained with were like that. I have had and have some outstanding teachers. This "stealing" ideology is something I'd rather see die a quick, horrible death than be perpetuated.

But that's just me.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 01:33 PM   #120
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post

Back on to the original topic . . what Ikeda Sensei is doing and showing. I have to call out/tease Lynn Seiser for immediately cautioning about talking about Ikeda. Folks, break out of this rut that the sensei is beyond reproach or examination - in Ikeda's case, obviously, he's trying to get people to get it!

If you aren't looking at everyone you meet in martial arts that has skills you want to emulate or surpass - through the lens of "how can I steal everything from this person as soon as possible" . . then you've already made a decison towards a slower track of learning.
Budd:

I do not think that many people are trying to get other people to not look at their idols with scrutiny. I think that most people are trying very hard to get everything they can from a teacher (maybe I'm being too optimistic). I think that Dan's statement "You don't know what you don't know." is a wise cautionary note. The hubris contained in some people's beliefs that they can gain all from seeing a video, or from watching a person do something, should speak for itself. How many times have you made advances in some area and when you look back on something, you go, "Oh my GOD, it was always there in front of me! Why could I not see it then?" How many times have you directly trained with someone and find more going on than meets your eye? Even hands-on experience will be limited to our ability to be open to learn and experience new things.

All of us, our teachers included, are all students on some path. Many struggle with their own progress and then compound that with their struggles in how they can teach their students what they have learned (or are learning). We know that having skills is a different subset from being able to teach a skill. We then have to compound that mess even more by recognizing that people learn in many different ways and at very different paces.

I think that this learning and transmission process has always been a convoluted affair. I would assume that many generations before us struggled with similar issues that we debate within ourselves and with others. History tends to indicate that "the greats" have been the result of serendipitous interactions between certain people at certain times. Maybe someone can find a more efficient and effective means of transmission. We all are trying to find that elusive "holy grail."

I think that we all need to keep a good dose of humility, open-mindedness, a willingness to share, a willingness to be wrong, a willingness to try and experience as much as you can - First Hand, as we try and learn new and different things. I greatly appreciate your efforts to tone down the rhetoric and bring things back on topic. At the same time, we also have to be careful to place a caveat around what we state to reflect the distinct possibility that there is always more there than meets our eyes at this moment in time. Ushiro Sensei cautions people that the greatest impediment to learning is what we already think that we know.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
 
Old 01-27-2011, 01:38 PM   #121
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
At a certain point (and I'm talking about personal stuff, not issues of civil rights or human rights) It matters not who is "good" or "being demeaned" or right or wrong - it just takes one of the parties to politely bow and refuse to engage in what is essentially meaningless repetitions of the same two statements back and forth.
Emphasis mine.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
But I'm altruistic. We're from different worlds.
Again, emphasis mine.

Huh?
 
Old 01-27-2011, 01:40 PM   #122
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
That's a fair question - and I think I'd keep it, for now within context of what Ikeda is showing and trying to get people to do? Is it the connection, joining, moveing the two-person single-unit? That's enough of a starter and if it then goes down the path of how to optimally condition the body to do that, great!
.
how's about using an example as a way to start the discussion?

uke stands in forward stand with fist out like so (hopefully the image shown)

nage stands in natural stand in front of uke with left palm rested against the front knuckles of the fist (i had seen Ikeda sensei did it with one finger and on the receiving end of such finger too). so, Ikeda sensei was nage. he would said three things (with accent): "connected", "unity", "change my inside". after a time, slowly, you can see uke posture shifted slowly toward his rear "third leg" (toward right rear) and lose his/her/it balance and staggered. and you will notice that Ikeda sensei body didn't move.

so, would that example be an ok starting point for the discussion?
 
Old 01-27-2011, 01:43 PM   #123
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

I'm sure it's not just you, Mark (you had to go there already? Don't make me come kick your soapbox). And while I agree with the idea that the teacher *should* do all the things you say. And a healthy learning environment is great.

But for my money, I'm hungry. I'm not willing to be told I'll get it in 20 years. I want to try something out, kick the tires, put it in a pressure grinder, question it, look at it academically, debate it, look at it again. I take responsibility for myself and my learning - if I am not getting it somewhere, I move along.

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I don't look at it that way. Never have, really. I don't want to steal anything. I'm appalled at the concept of it overall. There should never be a dynamic where a student has to "steal" anything. Hard work, yes. Step by step learning, yes. Investigations of the art on one's own, yes. But, if the teacher is seeing that the students aren't getting it,that teacher knows how to teach it such that the students would get it, and doesn't teach because he/she thinks the students should "steal" it? Sorry, that's not a good teacher.

I don't want to "steal" to learn "as soon as possible". I want a learning environment that's healthy, strong, and creates bonds between all involved. Having to "steal" doesn't do that. Having to look at it like you need to steal it as soon as possible doesn't do that. This teaching mentality about students needing to be smart enough to figure things out for themselves is wrong.

The person that spends hours thinking of some new way to teach so that a student having trouble finally gets past the issues is a teacher. Someone worth training with. A person that just lets their student meander along waiting for the student to finally get it, isn't a teacher. This kind of person should be avoided.

This "stealing" is not the environment I want, not the kind of person I want to be, and definitely not the kind of teacher I'd like to become.

None of the teachers I've met and trained with were like that. I have had and have some outstanding teachers. This "stealing" ideology is something I'd rather see die a quick, horrible death than be perpetuated.

But that's just me.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 01:58 PM   #124
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Budd:

I do not think that many people are trying to get other people to not look at their idols with scrutiny. I think that most people are trying very hard to get everything they can from a teacher (maybe I'm being too optimistic). I think that Dan's statement "You don't know what you don't know." is a wise cautionary note. The hubris contained in some people's beliefs that they can gain all from seeing a video, or from watching a person do something, should speak for itself. How many times have you made advances in some area and when you look back on something, you go, "Oh my GOD, it was always there in front of me! Why could I not see it then?" How many times have you directly trained with someone and find more going on than meets your eye? Even hands-on experience will be limited to our ability to be open to learn and experience new things.

All of us, our teachers included, are all students on some path. Many struggle with their own progress and then compound that with their struggles in how they can teach their students what they have learned (or are learning). We know that having skills is a different subset from being able to teach a skill. We then have to compound that mess even more by recognizing that people learn in many different ways and at very different paces.

I think that this learning and transmission process has always been a convoluted affair. I would assume that many generations before us struggled with similar issues that we debate within ourselves and with others. History tends to indicate that "the greats" have been the result of serendipitous interactions between certain people at certain times. Maybe someone can find a more efficient and effective means of transmission. We all are trying to find that elusive "holy grail."

I think that we all need to keep a good dose of humility, open-mindedness, a willingness to share, a willingness to be wrong, a willingness to try and experience as much as you can - First Hand, as we try and learn new and different things. I greatly appreciate your efforts to tone down the rhetoric and bring things back on topic. At the same time, we also have to be careful to place a caveat around what we state to reflect the distinct possibility that there is always more there than meets our eyes at this moment in time. Ushiro Sensei cautions people that the greatest impediment to learning is what we already think that we know.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Marc,

That's fair - and I'm not advocating everyone just assume they know what's going on from a video - but what I am saying is to use the available resources - video, testimonials, hands on, etc. . .get the experiences you can, compile them.

Both Dan's comment "You don't know what you don't know" and Ushiro's "impediment to learning is what we already think that we know" I think speak a lot to this. I used to be the poster child for getting out and meeting people. I will get back to it in the next year, hopefully.

But on that topic - I understand where people don't want their idols maligned - or even perceived to being maligned. But I'd really like us to get to the point where someone can give an opinion or assessment of someone else's skills (respectfully, I'd hope) without getting attacked or everybody being fast to assume that they didn't "get" what was happening.

But that's just me
 
Old 01-27-2011, 02:09 PM   #125
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Marc,

That's fair - and I'm not advocating everyone just assume they know what's going on from a video - but what I am saying is to use the available resources - video, testimonials, hands on, etc. . .get the experiences you can, compile them.

Both Dan's comment "You don't know what you don't know" and Ushiro's "impediment to learning is what we already think that we know" I think speak a lot to this. I used to be the poster child for getting out and meeting people. I will get back to it in the next year, hopefully.

But on that topic - I understand where people don't want their idols maligned - or even perceived to being maligned. But I'd really like us to get to the point where someone can give an opinion or assessment of someone else's skills (respectfully, I'd hope) without getting attacked or everybody being fast to assume that they didn't "get" what was happening.

But that's just me
Budd:

I know that you are talking about some people's perceptions of Ushiro Sensei. I have always encouraged everybody I know to get some hands-on with him. I would love it if some people could explain some of the things that he can do. I simply object to behind-the-back, negative comments spoken from a place of no experience. If people want to come out and say that from what they think that they see......, fine, no problems, but then that person should follow it up with some hands-on to confirm one's opinion. That to me, is the basis of integrity. If you put it out there, do so for all to see and then back it up with experience. You and I are ex-wrestlers. We both know that at the end of the day, the person's hand that is raised is from what really happened and not from conjecture.

Regards,

marc abrams
 

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