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Old 01-26-2011, 02:32 PM   #151
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
You really do have to transform your body from how it fundamentally moves to get the discrete skillset.
Just to toss this in..... back in the 90's there were a number of people who were studying "secret qigongs" from anyone who they could convince to take their money. One of the common phrases I'd hear and see on internet forums was something like "I can feel my body changing". Be careful when you get into the "transform your body" stuff.... it could just be the onset of puberty.

Mike
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Old 01-26-2011, 02:46 PM   #152
Eric in Denver
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Just to toss this in..... back in the 90's there were a number of people who were studying "secret qigongs" from anyone who they could convince to take their money. One of the common phrases I'd hear and see on internet forums was something like "I can feel my body changing". Be careful when you get into the "transform your body" stuff.... it could just be the onset of puberty.

Mike
If that is what is going to happen, I am quitting all this IS stuff.
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Old 01-26-2011, 03:09 PM   #153
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Just to toss this in..... back in the 90's there were a number of people who were studying "secret qigongs" from anyone who they could convince to take their money. One of the common phrases I'd hear and see on internet forums was something like "I can feel my body changing". Be careful when you get into the "transform your body" stuff.... it could just be the onset of puberty.

Mike
Yeah but I write-off the normal shit talkers that have convinced themselves that all it takes is a seminar to incorporate "this stuff" . . .

As for puberty - anyone believing IS will make THAT happen . . should buy a bridge from me . .
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:38 PM   #154
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Ummmmmmm..... I dunno, George. I always see two sides to a story. Go back and look at some of the posts by some high-ranking Aikidoists a few years back who were trying to shut down discussions about internal strength or trying to discount the fact that there was anything they didn't know that was related to Aikido. Would that be "attitude"? How about the lengthy thread on Aikido (trust me, there are worse ones on other forums like rec.martial-arts, etc.) about why people don't like ('hate' was the term used) Aikidoists. The way to avoid all the back-and-forth about attitudes and personalities is to discuss the topic, not make the constant snide references. Period. At least in my opinion. What Aikidoists can do to improve their image in the outside world has got a lot to do with the same topic.

In terms of searching for internal strength (the topic of the thread) the main thing that I've seen which kills most chance of progress is ego and fear of loss of face. The other thing that kills actual progress is what I call "TMI from TMS".... too much information from too many sources. Meaning that most people seldom get their basics right, so they either go nowhere or they go down some limited dead-end. What people need to do is to go find out what internal strength is (not via showy demo's... I mean find out what it is definitively) and decide whether it was worth the effort Ueshiba Sensei put into it or whether a lot of teachers of 'Aikido' today actually do know better than Ueshiba did.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
From my standpoint, I was being quite inclusive in my statement while addressing the fact that the folks I was addressing had certain individuals in mind. Aikido folks are absolutely no more functional than anyone else and the folks that are the most skillful are generally not the folks one picks to emulate in ones own life. The folks most of us would feel we'd like to emulate are usually the ones we consider "well balanced". I am not altogether sure that great mastery of anything is conducive to this kind of balance. On some level great mastery is abnormal. It takes more talent, more focus, more effort, pretty much more everything than an average person would put into anything. We may have evolved with the capacity for mastery but it was never the norm throughout or evolution, or even required for survival. Therefore, I'd say that most folks who have achieved great mastery over anything are very likely not what anyone would consider well balanced. And in the martial arts, so many folks come to the training our of fear as the original motivator, that not very functional people at the top is more the norm than not. This is certainly true of Aikido.

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Old 01-26-2011, 04:52 PM   #155
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
And in the martial arts, so many folks come to the training our of fear as the original motivator, that not very functional people at the top is more the norm than not. This is certainly true of Aikido.
I understood your point, George, and it's a valid one. My point is more along the lines that most dysfunctional people may not have a balanced-enough ability to determine whether someone else is attitudinally dysfunctional. The fact that there is so much discussion about other peoples' attitude in an art that largely espouses quasi-spiritual ideals has puzzled me since 1974. It doesn't puzzle people on the outside very much, if you've ever read perspectives on Aikido in other forums. Be that as it may, as soon as someone starts talking about "attitudes" on an Aikido forum I tend to give a grin. Friendly grin, of course.

Mike
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:06 PM   #156
Diana Frese
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

This is a long thread and I'm sorry I missed David's answer to my
post when I later jumped back in and posted on another page. Yes I will be viewing the video again when we have an afternoon to deal with dial up but whatever we may find, we still have much to learn from it.

my husband and I just got into a discussion of knife attacks and he said in those circumstances it's not going to be easy, and as a matter of fact in a book by Shigeru Egami of Shotokan he said the advice was that in such cases you have to do whatever it takes to save your life even if it means grabbing the knife.

But returning to the video, yes I did note much that did indeed look like what we seem to be aiming for, and furthermore it was filmed in a teaching situation. My husband says the student did very well in general.

It reminds me of my teaching days, not very many years in duration and many years ago at the local YMCA and a nearby YWCA. I hope I taught both aspects of Aikido, and by taught, I mean worked on with the help of my students, hoping they learned something too. I used examples from what may be called the popular culture, such as Lucy the comedienne of television in the famous mirror image scene, I had the students mirror the hand movements of each other as if standing behind a screen. I don't think I was trying to teach IP or IS per se, I was just trying to teach them how to keep track of uke at all times. We also attempted some more heavy duty stuff, like where uke's line of force actually is. In ushiro tekubi tori "in the motion" my assistant had his energy directed at the right wrist, but hadn't extended toward the left while coming around. So I just pointed down with the hand that had actually been grabbed. From the ground my assistant was heard to comment, "Eat mat...."

I'm not trying to sound like an expert or put down the value of training in IP or IS, but there are a lot of things we can get a glimpse of even in our own dojos. Knowing where uke is and where his or her energy is is a start, I think.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:43 PM   #157
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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And I think that's because in person, all the reality filters have to drop and everyone has to deal with pure reality. Intellectual arguments just have to stop when they're physically and immediately shown to be nonsense. And then we can all have an great time together, making real and serious improvements in our lives and our shared art.
You say that as though true intellectual engagement is less sincere or honest than physical engagement. It is true they cannot substitute for one another, but they are necessary complements, and have been seen so since ancient times, in all arts of war.

Quote:
Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won. Whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.
-- Sun Zi
Hou Shi (commentator) "In warfare, first lay plans which will ensure victory, and then lead your army to battle; if you will not begin with stratagem but rely on brute strength alone, victory will no longer be assured."
Intellect is also power, especially when training, and deciding how to train. Understanding is not merely physical, though that aspect cannot be diminished -- grasping the intellectual "what" of the thing -- as well as the physical display of it -- will enable its manipulation in ways that are not necessarily obvious from the method by which it is first learned.

But a refusal to play, carefully, with some of the the sharp knives in the intellectual drawer -- that just leaves us all with this gaping disconnect between action, understanding and explanation -- and that cannot be a good thing -- if for no other reason, than it simply feeds this very manner of false controversy that keeps cropping up on this topic.

Not here, and not now, thankfully.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:46 PM   #158
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Yeah but I write-off the normal shit talkers that have convinced themselves that all it takes is a seminar to incorporate "this stuff" . . .

As for puberty - anyone believing IS will make THAT happen . . should buy a bridge from me . .
I have this floating bridge I can sell you -- wholesale ... and, for you, ... I make special price ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:16 AM   #159
Eric in Denver
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Yeah but I write-off the normal shit talkers that have convinced themselves that all it takes is a seminar to incorporate "this stuff" . . .

As for puberty - anyone believing IS will make THAT happen . . should buy a bridge from me . .
Do you take counter checks?
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:07 AM   #160
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Just to toss this in..... back in the 90's there were a number of people who were studying "secret qigongs" from anyone who they could convince to take their money. One of the common phrases I'd hear and see on internet forums was something like "I can feel my body changing". Be careful when you get into the "transform your body" stuff.... it could just be the onset of puberty.

Mike
You got that one wrong Mike, it's the onset of old age, not puberty. People keep saying IS counters waning physical strength, and is good for the prostate, perineum and sphincters, no wonder middle-agers (and the soon-to-be) all feel attracted.

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 01-27-2011 at 02:09 AM. Reason: Editing
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Old 01-27-2011, 06:59 AM   #161
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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Diana Frese wrote: View Post
But Demetrio, help me out here. What did you mean by your statement, now that I have given what it means to me?
What did I mean? Meaning is meaningless.

But maybe the landscape seen from there is worth watching. Who knows?

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Old 01-27-2011, 07:29 AM   #162
David Orange
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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Diana Frese wrote: View Post
This is a long thread and I'm sorry I missed David's answer to my
post when I later jumped back in and posted on another page. Yes I will be viewing the video again when we have an afternoon to deal with dial up but whatever we may find, we still have much to learn from it.

my husband and I just got into a discussion of knife attacks and he said in those circumstances it's not going to be easy, and as a matter of fact in a book by Shigeru Egami of Shotokan he said the advice was that in such cases you have to do whatever it takes to save your life even if it means grabbing the knife.

But returning to the video, yes I did note much that did indeed look like what we seem to be aiming for, and furthermore it was filmed in a teaching situation. My husband says the student did very well in general.
Diana,

I was a bit hard on Tony because he was such a donkey about the serious matters we were discussing, then went on about how only tough technical aikido training mattered. And then I saw his video.

So I was just equally critical.

Still, there were many points where serious errors were presented. If the yodan teacher can't avoid being kicked in the stomach by an ikkyu student, where he leaves himself open by fundamental mishandling of an attack it doesn't look like such reasonable aikido teaching. The student did well enough for a student. They all had good spirit, it seemed, but I saw nothing to justify old Tony's evil eyes in his profile. I'm sure you can easily find better clips to study.

I'm sure old Ton' is a good enough chap, but he came in like a prig and got worse and worse, so...On mats I've been on, someone who goes all tough and savage generally gets the same kind of thing back. And when you have literally no ground to stand on...."It's only a flesh wound!!!"

No biggie.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 01-27-2011, 08:40 AM   #163
David Orange
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You say that as though true intellectual engagement is less sincere or honest than physical engagement. It is true they cannot substitute for one another, but they are necessary complements, and have been seen so since ancient times, in all arts of war.
Erick, the key word is "true intellectual engagement". And that, unfortunately, is what you're missing.

When the "intellectual engagement" is true, there is no discrepancy and everything flows well. But when the "intellectual engagement" is false or simply ignorant, it will stop cold when it encounters the physical truth.

And in your case, since you are clearly afraid to meet Dan, Mike, Ark or Rob, it's clear that you're just amusing yourself by generating meaningless froth. Unfortunately, you want everyone to take it seriously. But how can we take someone seriously who can't be man enough to back up his arguments with a physical proof?

And besides not having the personal integrity to step up and prove your intellectual froth, you have the nerve to pass around baseless rumors about Dan's hurting people in cooperative practice to justify yourself.

Okay, then. You're too weak to face Dan. What about Mike, Ark or Rob?

No.

Again. To place your frothy idle musings beside "true intellectual engagement" is fine for meaningless blather, but in martial arts you only "know" what you can "do." And it's clear you don't know much at all about this topic.

But the worst is to be so cowardly as to impugn the integrity of a fine teacher and then to continue your farthings of "intellectuality" from the safety of your keyboard.

I happened to see your silly response when I opened this thread before logging in. So I took you off "ignore" long enough to say that your bragging and smug superiority deserve absolutely no recognition and no respect until you apologize for the lies you have spread about Dan and show that you're man enough to put up and meet him face to face. Otherwise, you should just shut up.

Don't bother addressing me in any way again until you've done those things. I can get sewage off cable TV. I don't need it from you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 01-27-2011, 08:44 AM   #164
Diana Frese
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

Perhaps I can get away with re-entering this controvery, because in scrolling down and up I saw the quote from Lao Tzu and wonder if the blade is handy should I pick it up.

If I don't present myself as an expert, maybe people will see my points of view, just as someone who observed a few things years ago.....

The Great Panda is surprised at herself for such a martial metaphor. Nowadays she reads of avatars and realizes she has had one for years, She who in a controversy manages to get a symbolic black eye from both.

I'm not backing down from saying I saw things worth studying in that dial up viewing of Tony's video, and what I saw did show among the solid technique of which he writes, what I think IP etc. may be.

Overdramatizing myself, I invoke the name of the great Terry Dobson a few of whose classes and seminars I attended way back when in the mists of time. Now reentering the stream of Aikido via Aiki Web where I intended to find out what people were doing these days as a modern Rip Van Winkle delighted to learn of new people, and old timers I had and old timers I hadn't known years ago......

And find a raging torrent of controversy. Shall I step back, and wait for it to subside, or shall I step forward into the fray with my examples from the mists of time fluttering from my jo and bokken?
Where is Valerie from Fighting Woman News? How can I learn to write well enough to present my points?

The answer seems to come from the air around me. Why not make some points, then.

Seriously, all I can offer is this. Terry Dobson was trying to get one of my students to make a concerted attack. Hit me, he ordered. So Robert, the wiry soccer player type, hauled off and slugged him in the stomach. "Are you trying to kill me?" Terry complained.

No disrespect to Terry, I admire him a lot, so maybe the point is the generosity of the teacher. Like the famousTerry, one time uchideshi one may say, of O Sensei, Tony may have been focusing on drawing the students out, not on protecting himself. After all, my husband pointed out, it wasn't a demo, it was a class, kind of like being on Candid Camera, because the students just filmed it themselves.

The Dobson story is only a start. Tune in later if any of you are not totally bored with my posts. Next time, what about IP and kokyu ryoku in the early days of NYAikikai. There seemed to be a lot of both there, to my mind. And that was, and I'm sure still is, a major solid dojo.

Please, nobody get offended at anything I write. I really would like to participate in Aiki Web to the best of my ability, and will make an effort to understand any posts that are over my head. O Negai Shimasu. Arigato Gozaimasu.
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Old 01-27-2011, 09:16 AM   #165
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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Erick, the key word is "true intellectual engagement". And that, unfortunately, is what you're missing.

When the "intellectual engagement" is true, there is no discrepancy and everything flows well. But when the "intellectual engagement" is false or simply ignorant, it will stop cold when it encounters the physical truth.

And in your case, since you are clearly afraid to meet Dan, Mike, Ark or Rob, it's clear that you're just amusing yourself by generating meaningless froth.
See, David, the answer to an offer for honest intellectual engagement is NOT to question the other person's motives or sincerity.

Need I add more ? My ideas about such things are right or wrong, effective or ineffective, independent of anyone's opinions about "manly courage" in their source or development. I have not been to ANY seminar training outside my local area in the last ten years. My observations don't depend on what others tell me or don't -- and precisely becauseI have been working largely alone on the nature of body and its workings on these points. Why is solo work the sine qua non in the physical sense in your school of thought but utterly disallowed in the intellectual sense?

If you think that restrictions on my time and travel have anything to do with your suppositions -- you need to become a tad more charitable in your outlook toward other people. If you do, your overall outlook and obvious frustrations might improve immensely.

Circumstances that you simply do not know -- at all, and which are frankly, none of your business -- at all -- much less to idly guess at them in such low, and crude terms, are not the basis to rebut anything, certainly not in an intellectual sense, -- nor for me to accept the invitation to continue in such a mode -- so I will leave it at that .

All the best, all the same.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-27-2011, 09:57 AM   #166
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

I think I am seeing the undercurrent of my earlier post. I believe those who advocate internal strength training (and advocate IS is not typically found in aikido) are presenting a dangerous issue to those in aikido who has previously been training under our "modern" aikido system.

We are talking about an aikido culture that has culled much of the martial aspect from its curriculum since the 40s first under a presumption that students held a basic martial skill before entering aikido and later because of martial incompentency within aikido.

Now we are learning that there is training which strengthens our aikido skills. I beleive and expect resistence from those aikido people who have trained under the non-martial aikido, or who do not have the motivation to refine the aikido they learned using these new concepts. If you are doing non-martial aikido dance arguably you do not need IS, nor weapons, nor striking. However, internal strength training is another wedge in the fissure between aiki-dance and aikido. As more practioners begin to include internal strengthening exercises in their aikido it will become much more clear who "has it" and who does not.

In example, I believe you can already see skill separartion from those instructors who still heavily engage weapons training in their aikido and those who do not. Same with those who still employ striking in their aikido.

I stopped losing sleep over those who choose not to include these components in their aikido. Whether they want aikido or aiki-dance is their choice, not mine and I will be no worse off from their decision. What rubs these people is that if these components do improve aikido, they will be left behind. Better keep everyone back than let few come forward...
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:07 AM   #167
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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I think I am seeing the undercurrent of my earlier post. I believe those who advocate internal strength training (and advocate IS is not typically found in aikido) are presenting a dangerous issue to those in aikido who has previously been training under our "modern" aikido system.

We are talking about an aikido culture that has culled much of the martial aspect from its curriculum since the 40s first under a presumption that students held a basic martial skill before entering aikido and later because of martial incompentency within aikido.

Now we are learning that there is training which strengthens our aikido skills. I beleive and expect resistence from those aikido people who have trained under the non-martial aikido, or who do not have the motivation to refine the aikido they learned using these new concepts. If you are doing non-martial aikido dance arguably you do not need IS, nor weapons, nor striking. However, internal strength training is another wedge in the fissure between aiki-dance and aikido. As more practioners begin to include internal strengthening exercises in their aikido it will become much more clear who "has it" and who does not.

In example, I believe you can already see skill separartion from those instructors who still heavily engage weapons training in their aikido and those who do not. Same with those who still employ striking in their aikido.

I stopped losing sleep over those who choose not to include these components in their aikido. Whether they want aikido or aiki-dance is their choice, not mine and I will be no worse off from their decision. What rubs these people is that if these components do improve aikido, they will be left behind. Better keep everyone back than let few come forward...
Not sure I agree John (but maybe I am misunderstanding you?) - I see more opposition in this field from people who believe their aikido to be sufficiently martial already (and it may be, I really don't care). Some have invested a lot in the role of the tough guy amongst the bunnies, and hate hearing even the indirect suggestion they may be off-track.

For the more harmony-oriented, they are, in my view, often as happy with their practice as you describe for yours. They lose no sleep over whether anybody else wants to "fight" or be martial. Why should they, it does not interest them.

But again, I may have missed your point.
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:23 AM   #168
David Orange
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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Diana Frese wrote: View Post
Perhaps I can get away with re-entering this controvery, because in scrolling down and up I saw the quote from Lao Tzu and wonder if the blade is handy should I pick it up.
Diana,

I've had no problem with anything you posted. I did just want to let you know that video looks a lot different on a fast computer than on a slow one.

I once visited a dojo where the students felt thretened because I actually struck with my sword where they were standing. This scared the bejeezus out of them. Then I noticed that whenever any of them attacked with a bokken, they actually attacked far wide of where nage was standing. And nage, therefore, developed a very poor sense of evading a sword strike.

The teacher stepped in to demonstrate and caught the "blade" of the bokken with his thumb and looked at the class as if to say, "Well, it doesn't work every time..." He would have had his thumb cut cleanly off.

So there was something fundamentally wrong with what he was teaching about sword evasion. It worked fine and looked good if the student swung wide (and if the observer failed to note that). But when the sword strike was true, the evasion was disastrous for nage. It was a serious problem with their fundamental understanding of irimi.

In Tony's case, it looked to be almost exactly the same error (1:45). And that's just in "ordinary" aikido training, which he claims is superior to IP training.

Well, show me some really good unarmed aikido if you want to say it's better than IP. When it isn't even really good "ordinary" aikido, it leaves me with a lot of doubt. And when that is all backed up with the evil eye....gimme a break!

Look at 2:21 for his version of a real IP skill: where Ueshiba and Shioda do the same thing without hands, he does something I guess he considers "just as good" by shoving with two hands. It'll pass if the observer doesn't know or doesn't notice. Ueshiba and Shioda, using IP, receive uke's force directly into their shoulders, to the ground, and rebound it straight into uke, so that he propels himself up and back. In Tony's case, nothing of the sort happens. It's all done with his shove and is accomplished by timing alone. If uke had been a bit earlier, Tony couldn't have successfully shoved him.

For serious knife defense errors, see how the blade is left at nage's throat, uncontrolled, time after time while nage develops the techniques: from 2:26 to 2:31. Nage does well with what she was taught. I just hope she never tries that in an actual situation of that kind. In this case, you have to look to the teacher.

Also, see 2:52.

I could say that's a mere randori error. Everyone does that...but it happens more if the fundamental instruction is riddled with subtle flaws. Strangely enough, IP training develops very subtle awareness...attention to small details, in other words. Also, see 3:02. I see that she actually is attempting to work the side of the blade, but it looks unneccessarily risky. And again, stopping it at 3:02, her hand is actually wrapping around the blade.

Okay. Emergency, life or death in a real situation, you might end up doing that unavoidably...but to train someone to do it is inexcusable. Again, she's pretty nicely skilled in general, but she is being taught some seriously dangerous mistakes and it may get her killed before she understands that and has a chance to correct it.

Also, see 3:05 and 3:41.

Overall, it looks like generally decent run-of-the-mill aikido, but Tony is no Dan Harden or Mike Sigman. And just as there are some dangerous gaps between the mats on his floor, there are some seriously dangerous gaps in what he's teaching. Ironically, it's a great analogy that everyone simply ignores those dangers the same as they ignore the gaps between the mats, skimming over them as if they aren't there. Just as those mats need to be safely secured for good training, the holes in the technique and teaching need to be taken care of before he steps out and criticizes others.

And for a teacher to come up and say repeatedly that far more capable people than he are "selling snake oil," well, it speaks for itself.

I hate to be so hard on Tony, but I have more concern for the lives and safety of his students than for Tony's ego.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:30 AM   #169
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

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David Orange wrote: View Post
. Ironically, it's a great analogy that everyone simply ignores those dangers the same as they ignore the gaps between the mats, skimming over them as if they aren't there. Just as those mats need to be safely secured for good training, the holes in the technique and teaching need to be taken care of before he steps out and criticizes others.
I fully agree. The gaps between the mats show a lack of concern about high standards.

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Old 01-27-2011, 10:43 AM   #170
Diana Frese
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

I guess my question isn't too far off the OP. Why do some people believe both are not present in many dojo and recent lineages in Aikido (post 1969) I keep mentioning NYAikikai in a few posts, but noone has commented. Maybe it's because I beat around the bush too much and people lose interest before I get to the point, but hey I've only been on Aiki Web a couple of months and posting too takes practice.

Since Mary Eastland started this thread maybe its appropriate to acknowledge her lineage by saying Tohei Sensei visited New York Aikikai in 1967 and stayed and taught for about four months. Aikido in Daily Life was published around that time, and I believe was later re named Ki in Daily Life. I for one am interested in the history and fascinated that Mary's husband studied long time with Maruyama Sensei who taught at the summer camps prior to 1973.
Students of Chen Man Ching also attended New York Aikikai in the late sixties, one of them, Lou Kleinsmith, taught both places as assistant instructor. By the way, he came from judo, and I think I saw his picture in one of the judo books....

Maybe I want to know all of your impressions in their diversity and (gasp) controversy because I want to know how Aikido looks these days. From what I've seen stopping by to watch a class or seminar at the local dojo, sandwiched in among daily life and work stuff, it looks real good to me. Just a guess though, on the general controversy about fake ukemi, maybe some of it just looks that way because some styles derive more from sword and if they've got your center you don't want to hold out too long.... but that's another post or even thread. Has anyone contrasted the styles heavily descended from Yamaguchi Sensei's kohais and students and what I call the more circular styles? Or is this just two ways I noticed when I tried to pass on what I learned to students at our local Y's.

I guess I have two points to make. Are the difference between some of the deshi of O Sensei in terms of IP and kokyu ryoku or in center line emphasis contrasted with the power of circular motion, or do all of them actually teach both types of motion? I for one would like to see some opinions and descriptions and example if you can do it verbally, as I mentioned before we are still stuck on what seems to be an outmoded form, dial up on our computer.
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:45 AM   #171
Diana Frese
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

thanks David, I will read your latest post now. You posted while I was typing and it is good that the topic is an active one. I'm just letting you know I hadn't seen your latest when I wrote.....
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Old 01-27-2011, 11:02 AM   #172
Diana Frese
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

David, I don't know what else to say, I only know that there is a lot in Tony's video that will be of great help to me and my husband training together. Maybe later on we will have the means to travel to various dojo. Certainly openings must be guarded against and sharp edges must be avoided (there is even an article on that it in one of our latest Kitchen and Bath Business magazines for our cabinetmaking trade)

I appreciate your commentary it will help me to become a good observer whether on the mat or watching from the sidelines. I had no idea when I joined Aiki Web that I would be participating in so many discussions and I want to thank all for your help in learning more about Aikido, which I always intended to re enter some day.
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Old 01-27-2011, 11:16 AM   #173
Diana Frese
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

Just another note, not to add to the controversy, but to express thanks to a good point in the video, which I haven't even enumerated one previously......specifically.....

My husband, from one of the"striking arts" commented that the students, non black belts, seemed to be doing good attacks, which he feels are very important as Aikido ukes....

In respect to Tohei Sensei, I always mention to one of my brothers whenever conversation becomes a bit negative "Plus calls plus"

By all means point out openings, but I intend to also look to what Tony is actually getting across, and for the rest on this thread, I look forward to whatever you can tell me about IP in your training. I think it was Mary who started another thread asking for specific exercises to develop ki. can we try to do some of that here? Or maybe I belong back on one of the history threads.
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Old 01-27-2011, 11:50 AM   #174
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Long post....sorry for all of this length.....
Why sorry? That was a pleasure to read.
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Old 01-27-2011, 11:51 AM   #175
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Re: Aikido training - Why are you searching for internal strength?

Random comments and thoughts……in no particular order……

Most of us don't live in environments where self-defense is always a concern…..though there are many locations in big cities or in unstable places in the world where this is true….

Self-defense situations these days for most of us, especially those of us posting here, seem to happen more out of no where without a lot of build up proceeding the attack…..ambushes in bars, robbery, break-ins, and drive bys….

Self-defense today seems to be more about guns and small bladed weapons….

Close quarters combat seems more about staying on your feet and surviving the initial attack…that could be covering up to protect or initially tying the attacker up before responding or just getting out of the way....

None of us carry swords or long bladed weapons in our daily lives, though some may carry guns and small bladed weapons.…

When I started Aikido in 1974 I heard the term non-violent self-defense use…I always found this interesting….

I may have had self-defense in mind when I started Aikido, but I lost that idea in the fun I was having with the movement and interaction with the people I trained with….

The idea of augmenting my Aikido with cross training sent me out for small trips to a bunch of different martial arts and a whole lot of other teachers…

I still consider Aikido my base movement skill set….

I don't think anything is missing from anyone's skill set or training….there is just MORE that can be learned and incorporated in the skills….

Everyone is at exactly the right spot for were they are at NOW….No need to defend or put down anyone for this….

Your map for travel (Training) is your map, you take the base Google map and work it as you need...PLEASE remember just because you have not found a place on that map it doesn't exist….Choices…choices…..

PLEASE consider that if someone hasn't found some places only tell them once or twice……repeated telling just has them quit listening…..

AND for those of you who have not grabbed Dan Harden, Minoru Akuzawa, Mike Sigman, Kenji Ushiro, or some others who have some insight into the more….take a chance….

Keep in mind there is more to all of this than even Dan, Ark, Mike, Kenji know or have touched on…….

To answer Diana question about Koichi Tohei Sensei teaching in the early days…..I lived that and he had stuff none of us had. He gave us some simple tests to do to support the idea of relax, weight underside, extending and keeping one point…..these were essentially viewed as warm-ups by most and the progressive pressure needed to get really good at it was not there. How to integrate all of this into your movement was not explained or set in exercise to help beyond the voicing the four principles. How do you carry the ability to hold a very light push to maintaining frame and structure when hit while moving?
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