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Old 01-21-2011, 01:47 PM   #176
chillzATL
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hmmm ... as a technicality, one could state, Ueshiba taught techniques. As a matter of actual truth, though? People complain that I post too many quotes of interviews and articles. So, instead, let's just consider ...
I think it's because you post random one-line anecdotes to support your position (but it's not really yours is it?) and don't appear to attempt to apply any logical thought of your own to them.

Quote:
Consider pre war where Ueshiba was actively traveling and "teaching". While he was at one place "teaching", who was teaching at all the others?
other people teaching doesn't mean he didn't teach techniques... did they just make up those techniques while he was away?

Quote:
Consider the pre-war schedule where there weren't that many hours of being taught by Ueshiba but rather many hours of practice with peers and seniors.
same as above, Mark. I guess that Shioda, Shirata, Tohei, etc all just made up techniques themselves. Shocking they all look like the same techniques. Must have been the Kami..

Quote:
Consider pre-war students saying they often did techniques with seniors.
same as above, Mark.

Quote:
Consider Mochizuki complaining that Ueshiba completely pared down the Daito ryu syllabus into just a small number of techniques. If techniques were Ueshiba's focus, then why did he trim so much?
He took a selection of techniques that best fit the principles he wanted to transmit. Why have 182 techniques when 50 cover everything you feel needs to be covered?

Quote:
Consider many of the students of Ueshiba complaining that he wouldn't show a technique twice. Did he "teach" a technique? Sure. But, was he really teaching or just doing the good old show and you have to steal?
Stan has videos of him teaching techniques. Not just demonstrating and walking away, but showing and explaining. Unfortunately there is no audio to go along with it, but it's quite obvious that he's discussing the principles behind what he's doing.

Quote:
Consider post-war when Ueshiba was in Iwama. Who taught at Tokyo?
Saito just imagined all of those techniques I guess huh??

Quote:
Consider the post war training schedule at Tokyo where Ueshiba only "taught" the morning class. And even then, many of the students complained he talked away most of the time.
lectures or not, he still taught techniques

Quote:
Consider Ueshiba's daily routine at Iwama. Who actually put together a jo and bokken syllabus? Wasn't Ueshiba.
completely insignificant

Quote:
Consider that when picked as uke by Ueshiba if a student didn't attack the very specific way that Ueshiba wanted, that student didn't get picked as uke again.
Everyone remembers things their own way. My own instructor, who was a direct student, traveled with him and took ukemi for him has said that this was in response to people taking a dive for him or not attacking him honestly. Those people would usually get dumped, sometimes hurt and not asked to be uke again. but again, this is just dancing around the topic and has nothing to do with him teaching techniques.

Quote:
Consider who it actually was that put together techniques at hombu to create a systematized syllabus? Wasn't Ueshiba.
So... Shioda did this too you know..

Quote:
Consider Ueshiba yelling at the students practicing techniques that they weren't doing his aikido. If techniques were the focus, then what exactly were they doing wrong by imitating what Ueshiba had showed them?
Because what they were doing didn't exhibit any of the principles that were the core of his art...

Quote:
Now, jump to Sagawa. Consider that Sagawa states aiki is a body training method and it isn't about techniques.
yet sagawa still taught techniques...

Quote:
Consider Sagawa, Kodo, Okamoto, Ueshiba all said their art was formless. Not a myriad of techniques, but formless.
Eventually yes, but you have to walk before you run. Every one of those people you mentioned TEACH TECHNIQUES.

Quote:
Oh crud, there's just too many "considers" out there. You want to focus on techniques, more power to you. IMO, you'll never get Ueshiba's aiki doing that. You will get Modern Aikido's definition of aiki. Either way, if you're happy about your training - that's what matters.
I just don't get how you are so oblivious to the bouncing ball of logic Mark. Sure, blindly doing techniques is not going to get you what Ueshiba had. The techniques were his vehicle to apply and develop the principles that were the core of his art, up to a point at least, then ones ability to express aiki becomes formless. If you are doing things to develop the body so that it can properly do the techniques, then the techniques aren't a problem.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:47 PM   #177
kewms
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mark Peckett wrote: View Post
I didn't realise I was such a heretic with so much of the aikido community ranged against me!

All I was saying is that perhaps people spend too much time worrying about ki, when if they relaxed and worked on their basics, ki would come.

To quote Homma sensei:

"(discover) through daily practice inside and outside the dojo" but not "adopting another's definition blindly." According to Homma sensei Aikido is the "training of the mind" which expresses itself through breathing. When one's mind, body movement, and breathing are in harmony with the surroundings, one experiences the true meaning of Aiki.

He explains it a lot better than I did, I think.
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Homma Sensei's aikido. I *am* familiar with the aikido of a number of people on Mark Murray's list. When they say IS is something different from "really good basics," I believe them.

Katherine
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:56 PM   #178
Lee Salzman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Disclaimer: I don't have the IHTBF nor I have put my hands (nor any other part of my anatomy) on any of the "usual suspects". I'm not a member of this group and have some issues on how IS/Aiki training is "marketed".

@Mark Peckett
That said, I think your theory about training in basics leading to aiki (aiki as manifestation of IS/IT) have a serious problem: Basic skills aquisition (kihon kata) is not about attributes developement. Attributes (IS/Aiki), if any, developed via basic training are a) by serendipity; b) after years and years of kihon; b) in a non conscious manner, so they are mostly ineffable and unteachable to the next generation of students.

The IS coaches claim to have found/developed especifics methods for attributes developement, and here are people who, after trying said methods, they say they work.

Serious scientifical peer reviewed studies about performance increases due to following said methods have not been published afaik.
The pedantic question is: what's a basic? Almost everything in aikido that is labeled a basic requires a priori understanding of the mechanics of power in the body to do them and actually get something out of them. If you spend decades just trying to figure out what you're supposed to get out of the stuff, so that you can later go back and get something out of it, then, wow, where'd the time go? So, are they then basics, or actually advanced applications?

Even innocent seeming things in aikido like funi-kogi undo, kokyu-dosa, kokyu nages, suburi, or even much hyped IS exercises like shiko, silk reeling, or even standing, I don't think any of these are basics. They are tools to ingrain habits, but what habits are you building? Techniques are even worse, the ultimate tool for ingraining habits we brought with us to the dojo, rather than the ones we want to take out of the dojo, but what if what we were sold as basics below all those fancy aikido techniques all this time were actually techniques too?

It's not about IS in the end. I think it's about being conscious of what you're trying to build and validate, before you go in and do the work. If you're not, you're just chasing your tail. If you're doing IS work, that applies double (oh boy have I wasted too much time chasing my tail there)! But hey, we're sold on this idea, "the basics will transform you, don't think about it, just do it", and it peeves me just as much to hear it coming from the IS crowd too. But nah, you transform the basics, not the other way around.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 01-21-2011 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:08 PM   #179
gregstec
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Hey Mark,

Thanks for including me, but Tony doesn't think I can fight anyway, so clearly I'm not a good person as a reference.

He thinks I only buy "snake oil", even when I offer my address for people to come visit.

Sorry to detract from the quality of your list.

Best wishes,

Howard
Don't you mean buy and sell snake oil? which reminds me, thanks for that last batch you sold me, keep it coming - good stuff

Best

Greg
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:23 PM   #180
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Demetrio,

I was only saying that you have issues with the technique focused theory.
Yes, and big ones.

@phitruong
Thanks but I lack time and resources for proper IS training. Maybe later.

@Lee Saltzman

Quote:
The pedantic question is: what's a basic?
I should have used 'fundamentals' as forming or serving as an essential component of a system or structure .
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:33 PM   #181
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Count me in as another heretic Mark

My thoughts are that unless you enter the arena of randori and shiai and have actually been in real altercations you can never know your real ability. That's all there is to it, snake oil and all.....
Why would you imagine that everyone who has spoken to you has not been in that arena?

I got my shodan in judo in Japan fighting a Japanese-Brazillian who was a street fighter in Brazil and was about 5th dan over there, but they made him retest for shodan under the Japanese system. I didn't beat him, but they gave me shodan largely just for being willing to take the fight to him. They said "his eyes have an animal spirit."

Do you have actual ring experience?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:25 PM   #182
Howard Popkin
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Hey Tony,

Just so you know, I'm no spring chicken, but...

You are talking to me about snake oil ?

http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me

You are promoting a weight loss system ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWCvq...layer_embedded

I'm thinking you and I can talk about this over a couple if pints and a buffet eh ?

To quote a good friend, "Cheers".

Howard
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:03 PM   #183
Upyu
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
My thoughts are that unless you enter the arena of randori and shiai and have actually been in real altercations you can never know your real ability. That's all there is to it, snake oil and all.....
Wow...that would validate...like all three of the names discussed in these various threads. Running out of excuses yet? (the smallest of them being Ark, weighing in at...65 kg? )
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:19 PM   #184
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Hey Tony,

Just so you know, I'm no spring chicken, but...

You are talking to me about snake oil ?

http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me

You are promoting a weight loss system ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWCvq...layer_embedded

I'm thinking you and I can talk about this over a couple if pints and a buffet eh ?

To quote a good friend, "Cheers".

Howard
Those that have tried it have found it works, so I have no problem with it, just making use of something I have discovered for myself. Nothing to do with aikido. Looks as if you could do with losing a few pounds....
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:23 PM   #185
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Why would you imagine that everyone who has spoken to you has not been in that arena?

I got my shodan in judo in Japan fighting a Japanese-Brazillian who was a street fighter in Brazil and was about 5th dan over there, but they made him retest for shodan under the Japanese system. I didn't beat him, but they gave me shodan largely just for being willing to take the fight to him. They said "his eyes have an animal spirit."

Do you have actual ring experience?

David
Yes..... in and out of it

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-21-2011 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:03 AM   #186
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Deleted

Last edited by DH : 01-22-2011 at 01:08 AM.
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:16 AM   #187
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Training Internal Strength

I dont know why people bother.

Ignore the guy, leave him to whatever he knows, while we explore with child-like fascination this subject called 'internal strength' or bodyskill.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:41 AM   #188
Mark Peckett
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Homma Sensei's aikido. I *am* familiar with the aikido of a number of people on Mark Murray's list. When they say IS is something different from "really good basics," I believe them.

Katherine
http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=12956928...s=gaku%20homma
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:15 AM   #189
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I dont know why people bother.
Personally, I thought it was because of his seniority, his certainty, and his unabashed nature, and fearlessness to tell the truth as he saw it. Either way it would have been a hell of an experience, and he would have made an honest, if dubious, but interesting and credible witness (on another continent) to what is being discussed.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:49 AM   #190
Howard Popkin
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Re: Training Internal Strength

So Tony, let me get this correct :

1) You don't believe in IS because you have never seen felt it, its just "tricks" .

On aikiweb you have hundreds of VERY high ranking martial artists across the board who tell you it exists, but from your video, you have no idea what they are talking about.

2) You are a slightly chunky man (as am I, by they way) who claims to have a magic system for weight loss.

We only have you to believe, but since you have seen the results for yourself, we should be on board.

See the problem here ?

Seriously, no offense intended (yes, that's the way Webster changed offence for us Americans)

I just think someone who in interested in the more martial side of it should get their hands on someone who can do this stuff and then make an accurate evaluation.

Hey, that' s sounds familiar !

Again, I wish you no ill will, I just think you have no experience in this area.

Best wishes,

Howard
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:30 AM   #191
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
So Tony, let me get this correct :

1) You don't believe in IS because you have never seen felt it, its just "tricks" .

On aikiweb you have hundreds of VERY high ranking martial artists across the board who tell you it exists, but from your video, you have no idea what they are talking about.

2) You are a slightly chunky man (as am I, by they way) who claims to have a magic system for weight loss.

We only have you to believe, but since you have seen the results for yourself, we should be on board.

See the problem here ?

Seriously, no offense intended (yes, that's the way Webster changed offence for us Americans)

I just think someone who in interested in the more martial side of it should get their hands on someone who can do this stuff and then make an accurate evaluation.

Hey, that' s sounds familiar !

Again, I wish you no ill will, I just think you have no experience in this area.

Best wishes,

Howard
Then I don't....

I know what I believe in and that's good enough for me....
My version of "internal strength" is different to yours and it works for me.
I don't really care what you think so it doesn't really matter....
I don't have a problem as I believe in what I see and experience.
I have felt what you "allude" to and I know what it is in my mind.
I do not care if I am right or wrong as I have not reached perfection in these things that you so boldly claim to be able to do, and I most probably won't...... according to the scriptures of Howard Popkin........ There is more to life than just seeing a dojo, and martial arts, day in day out, which I have done for most of my life since starting.
But I am now at the time of life where I feel that it's not so important that I become obsessed with it.
I stay reasonably fit through my training regime and have started to enjoy the fruits of all that hard work, which has kept me relatively younger than most, so I'm quite content in that respect.
It's hard enough just surviving at present with money being short, let alone seeing if I can project somebody half way across a dojo, which is fun when I can get round to it and have a dojo, but we don't take it too seriously.....depends on the size of the dojo.....
.
Ranks don't mean a thing to me, as they are only numbers. Some earned, most a joke....

I have to try and make a living the same as everyone else on this planet, and I'll do it as I please. If people are satisfied, then good. If not, I give them their money back.... As you do ?

As for my aikido? It has worked for the people that have tried my version and it works for both them and me........ no mystical "ki" just as it is..... Those that put the effort in get the results....
We don't need to explore why it is, it just is..... some can't, some can.... End of story

Take care and have a happy "ki" inner strength? filled life......

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-22-2011 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:38 AM   #192
kewms
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Yes, I know who he is. But I haven't trained with him.

Katherine
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:18 AM   #193
Howard Popkin
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Tony,

Funny, sounds fairly similar.

I'm old, a little fat, and I have a total knee replacement as of December 08.

I work two jobs and I'm recently married. Life is busy.

To me, IS, IP, Aiki, whatever you want to call it has been an intellectual pursuit since 1979.

How can I do less and affect people more ? Its way past being about fighting, even though the ability to use it in a fight is paramount, in my opinion.

If you get a chance, Go see Dan Harden when he is in the UK. I think you will find a way to practice, without ukemi, that suits us slightly abused older guys really well, while adding some crazy power to your skills.

Again, go feel it, then make an educated decision.

If I am ever in England, I'd be happy to get together and work out. Totally on the level, no nonsense, just two old budo guys seeing different things.

Best wishes,

Howard

P.S. oh, one more thing... I haven't claimed anything, except the old and fat part

Last edited by Howard Popkin : 01-22-2011 at 11:20 AM. Reason: more
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:45 PM   #194
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Tony,

Funny, sounds fairly similar.

I'm old, a little fat, and I have a total knee replacement as of December 08.

I work two jobs and I'm recently married. Life is busy.

To me, IS, IP, Aiki, whatever you want to call it has been an intellectual pursuit since 1979.

How can I do less and affect people more ? Its way past being about fighting, even though the ability to use it in a fight is paramount, in my opinion.

If you get a chance, Go see Dan Harden when he is in the UK. I think you will find a way to practice, without ukemi, that suits us slightly abused older guys really well, while adding some crazy power to your skills.

Again, go feel it, then make an educated decision.

If I am ever in England, I'd be happy to get together and work out. Totally on the level, no nonsense, just two old budo guys seeing different things.

Best wishes,

Howard

P.S. oh, one more thing... I haven't claimed anything, except the old and fat part
That's fine...... Nor do I........ I have lost weight recently after being able to free a back and shoulder problem, which is getting better. It stopped me training for a year and more and the weight ballooned a bit for a while, as I was not allowed to do anything strenuous. It was very frustrating as I had to ingest anti inflammatory medicine. I still had to work, being self employed, it drained me physically..... hence my absence on this site.....
I am back to a regular training regime of isometric/isotonic exercise, usually when I find the time. Generally 3 - 4 times weekly of an hour, some times more. It's my way of training without having to take the punishment anymore. I fear my fighting days are fast coming to an end and I feel that I do not have to prove anything anymore.... But I will hit back if someone hits me..... I'm not the worlds best fighter or aikidoka, but I'm certainly not the worst.
If you have a spare dojo and mats I would appreciate it. I don't have the resources anymore, so be my guest......
Trying to set one up here is mind boggling and is in no way straight forward like it used to be......
I had hoped to get started this month, but that is being held back by CRB checks coming forward. 40 quid for sod all.....
Can't really afford tatami/matting so will now most likely be a non starter, unless somebody kind can help me out.....
Yeah come and train, exchange ideas...... fine by me
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:44 PM   #195
C. David Henderson
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Hey Tony,

With the training you describe, it's my bet you'd understand a lot of the exercises this "IS" training involves the first time you saw it. Plus, it is supposed to train the kind of strength us old guys need.

FWIW, my friend.

David Henderson
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:26 PM   #196
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Hey Tony,

With the training you describe, it's my bet you'd understand a lot of the exercises this "IS" training involves the first time you saw it. Plus, it is supposed to train the kind of strength us old guys need.

FWIW, my friend.
It's no real secret......

Take care.....
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:56 PM   #197
MM
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I just don't get how you are so oblivious to the bouncing ball of logic Mark. Sure, blindly doing techniques is not going to get you what Ueshiba had. The techniques were his vehicle to apply and develop the principles that were the core of his art, up to a point at least, then ones ability to express aiki becomes formless. If you are doing things to develop the body so that it can properly do the techniques, then the techniques aren't a problem.
Dunno. I think it's pretty clear, cut and dried. Ueshiba didn't really teach techniques. In his mind, the art was formless and whatever technique happened to occur was the result of his spiritual ideology intertwined with Daito ryu aiki. He never used techniques as a way to become formless or to develop aiki.

Aiki News Issue 063
Quote:
Shirata Sensei wrote:
in our time, Ueshiba Sensei didn't teach systematically. While we learned we had to systemize each technique in our mind so it was very hard. Ueshiba Sensei didn't have techniques. He said: "There are no techniques. What you express each time is a technique."
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Old 01-22-2011, 05:32 PM   #198
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Tony,
It has already been commented on many times that one of the common reactions in these discussions of internal skills is "oh yes, we do that too." When you state
Quote:
It's no real secret......
you are essentially saying the same thing. Well, I have been doing martial arts for 40 years one way or another. Having trained with no teacher that was even mediocre in his art, I can honestly say that I have a fairly informed opinion on what these guys are talking about.

Why do you think Ellis Amdur wrote a whole book on who had these skills, to what degree, and where did they get them. If it all was no real secret, I think everyone would have them. They do not. The majorty of the Aikido folks I have been on the mat with either don't have them at all or only have them to a degree.

Having trained at least briefly with the big three IS guys who either post here or who have students who do, I can say that in certain areas I have seen no Aikido teachers who have developed these skills to the same extent. What they do is different. I am not saying that their Aikido is better, because in fact none of them are Aikido people. But each of these people has the ability to do things with his body that is quite simply absent from post war Aikido in general. And I have not seen much that would indicate to me that the 30's guys who did have some of this knowledge found a systematic way to transmit it. I have seen the top Yoseikan, Shudokan, guys in the world, I have trained with folks from just about every style of Aikido there is and I can honestly say that some styles are farther away from manifesting these skills than others, none of them has the depth or sophistication of understanding of these skills. My own teacher Saotome Sensei is, in my opinion, still the best Aikido practitioner I have ever put my hands on. At 130 lbs he has always been able to handle me effortlessly, even when I had 200 lbs on him. He clearly has some of these skills, as does Ikeda Sensei. But I can assure you that they don't do nor can they explain these skills to the degree that is being discussed here.

The idea that it's "no real secret" is quite simply a smoke screen that acts to make you feel all right about what you have done over the years based on no direct or hands on knowledge of what these guys are doing. For myself, I have no problem admitting that these guys are doing things that I can't do yet. It doesn't make my Aikido any less... but I would like to understand what these guys understand. I'd also like to understand a lot of stuff that I think these guys do not understand. I look around and see a bunch of folks not willing to admit that there's much they don't understand.

I find that interesting myself because for me, the more I have trained the more I have found that I don't understand. So when I see things that I know I previously have been unaware of, that I have never encountered anyone who talked about them or could teach them, and I am someone who gets out, travels, has cross trained for years, and then I hear someone like you stating it's no real secret... well, I think that's just an example of that "boy thing" of not ever wanting admit there's something he doesn't know. Sort of like the frustration women have with their husbands never stopping to ask for directions... they'd rather be lost and late than to admit they needed help.

IS stuff is a subset of skills. It is not the sum total of Aikido. It is a set of skills that would allow one to take his Aikido to the highest level and the folks at that highest level all have some. But few, if any, have spent their adult lives focused just on developing these skills. The guys posting on here about these skills have done so and have developed a detailed understanding of these skills that simply is not generally found. I am sure your Aikido is quite competent. I looked at your video clips. You don't lose a thing by admitting that someone might have some juice you don't. It just means that someone worked on some stuff you didn't. You can do many things I am sure that these guys can't. But when i see folks close themselves off to new influences bases on complete lack of actual information, it seems sad. The folks out there who can benefit most from the work that these teachers have done and the generosity that they have shown in being willing to share this work with the Aikido community are the people just like us. We've had the best Aikido training available. I know of no source from within the Aikido community who can show me how to get to the next level. I have already trained with the best. It sounds like you've had quality training as well. I think it is just plain silly to think that what you know is so all encompassing that you can't admit that any of these folks doesn't understand some stuff you don't.

Oh, and don't worry, I think the IS guys do exactly the same thing. I have heard them say about Systema that's it's the same stuff and I am pretty sure that much of what they do is fairly unique in conception and execution. They judge someone like Ushiro Kenji Sensei solely through the lens of their IS experience and whereas much of what he does is the same thing they are doing, he is doing quite a bit that they are not, and I have seen little sign that they wish to cop to that either. So, we are all limited by our own experience.

It was Ushiro Sensei in his second book
Quote:
What you know is the enemy of learning
I think that pretty much sums it up right there. The folks here know an awful lot and that creates an attendant set of limitations as well. Since the nature of things is pretty much limitless, I far prefer to focus on what I don't know, and that seems to be expanding all the time no matter how much knowledge I seem to accrue. That expanding dimension of what I don't know seems to pull me along continuously and in the process of what I do know seems to be increasing exponentially.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 01-22-2011, 05:44 PM   #199
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Oh, and don't worry, I think the IS guys do exactly the same thing. I have heard them say about Systema that's it's the same stuff and I am pretty sure that much of what they do is fairly unique in conception and execution. They judge someone like Ushiro Kenji Sensei solely through the lens of their IS experience and whereas much of what he does is the same thing they are doing, he is doing quite a bit that they are not, and I have seen little sign that they wish to cop to that either. So, we are all limited by our own experience.
Hi George:

I think these two things, the Systema relationship to I.S. and Ushiro Sensei's I.S. are good topics. Personally, even though a few people (not many) have stated their opinion that Systema uses internal strength, I haven't seen it. Perhaps I'm wrong... however, if someone could detail where and how Systema uses actual internal strength, I'd like to listen to the details/facts.

In terms of Ushiro Sensei, I think it's a pretty easy discussion... can you give some specifics about your statement "he is doing quite a bit that they are not"? What is Ushiro Sensei doing that is different from basic internal-strength? Can you point to an example? A video would be great.

Thanks.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:54 PM   #200
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi George:

I think these two things, the Systema relationship to I.S. and Ushiro Sensei's I.S. are good topics. Personally, even though a few people (not many) have stated their opinion that Systema uses internal strength, I haven't seen it. Perhaps I'm wrong... however, if someone could detail where and how Systema uses actual internal strength, I'd like to listen to the details/facts.

In terms of Ushiro Sensei, I think it's a pretty easy discussion... can you give some specifics about your statement "he is doing quite a bit that they are not"? What is Ushiro Sensei doing that is different from basic internal-strength? Can you point to an example? A video would be great.

Thanks.

Mike Sigman
Well, I am not talking about the physical side of technique but rather what I would call the "energetic side". There is a huge amount that he and the Systema guys do which relates to the action of consciousness on the partner / opponent. Ushiro has a set of DVDs that show him doing class in Japan but unless someone has posted clips on You Tube I am not going to post things from his DVDs.

Also, I would tend to agree, to the limit of my understanding, that Systema is not using internal strength in the manner you would mean. That doesn't mean thet Vlad or Ryabko could kill you with a strike that looked like nothing, but it isn't what you guys are doing and that was more my point.

I am not a student of Ushiro Sensei although I have been on the mat with him far more times than I've managed with you guys. I am good friends with both of his personal American students and have discussed what he teaches at length with them. The work contained in his kata, like Sanchin Kata, is straight internal power training. But I only throw him out along with Systema, which I also only do periodically, for folks to think about. Ushiro Sensei will be at my dojo in October of 2011 and folks can decide for themselves.

In terms of overall emphasis in the training, there is a greater similarity between Systema and Ushiro Karate than with what I have seen of the IS work. There is a huge emphasis on how consciousness effects your own body, the opponent's body, how the quality of that consciousness ie emotional content for instance totally changes how the energy of a strike transfers to what is struck, etc. Perhaps you guys do teach that and I have only seen your most basic exercises. But as I said to Tony, I think the "we do that" syndrome cuts both ways. And in my experience you guys, as fantastically skilled as you are no less likely to reject something outside your paradigm as the other folks I know. That's simply my experience, which being limited to short contacts with you guys, so generously provided by you guys I might add, could be wrong. I am not fixed on any of this as it all falls outside of what I consider my area of expertise, which is limited to the Aikido I have worked out so far.

I am no more an "expert" on what he does than I am at what you do. Both things have effected and improved my Aikido but I am not an appropriate person to be "representing" here. I simply post as a sort of consciousness raising effort. I think every serious student of the art should check you and Ark and Dan out. I think they should play with Howard and Toby whenever they can. I absolutely believe that they should experience Vladimir or Michael Ryabko and Ushiro Kenji. Then they can decide for themselves. These guys all live here or come here to the US, often several times a year. You guys have made yourselves very available to all of us. It's just a matter of effort required for folks to get the exposure. Then they can decide what they think and their opinions will be far better than anything I'd say about it.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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