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Old 01-13-2011, 03:51 PM   #51
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
BTW, let me add that I watched a number of Ikeda Sensei's video demonstrations and on a few of them, Uke anticipated Ikeda. I'm assuming that sort of thing is more the exception than the rule. All explanations can go out the window when cooperative Uke's have to be factored into the equation.

FWIW

Mike
Ukes are only human. Even when we are trying not to anticipate or are trying to give an honest attack we can slip into a pattern if we forget to be mindful. In training horses anticipation is something I see a lot of. Once a pattern is established the horse will of course continue to follow it. If you don't want them to anticipate your next request the best way to avoid it is to not establish a pattern. Perhaps the same can be applied to ukes.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 05:06 PM   #52
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Ukes are only human. Even when we are trying not to anticipate or are trying to give an honest attack we can slip into a pattern if we forget to be mindful. In training horses anticipation is something I see a lot of. Once a pattern is established the horse will of course continue to follow it. If you don't want them to anticipate your next request the best way to avoid it is to not establish a pattern. Perhaps the same can be applied to ukes.
Try moving a cat's litter box to a new location and see what happens...
Yes to some degree we do that because in most day to day life, patterns form a useful shorthand to keep us on track with most things so our brain is ready for the non-pattern stuff.
But in training.... not so good! That's when we should be in the moment, NOT on autopilot!

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 01-13-2011 at 05:08 PM. Reason: clarity

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Old 01-14-2011, 06:59 AM   #53
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
BTW, let me add that I watched a number of Ikeda Sensei's video demonstrations and on a few of them, Uke anticipated Ikeda. I'm assuming that sort of thing is more the exception than the rule. All explanations can go out the window when cooperative Uke's have to be factored into the equation.
IMHO, having actually been in the experience many times, it feels less like anticipation (though unconsciously I won't rule that out) and more like Ikeda Sensei establishes a connection (intent and distance) and begins his technique prior to physical contact. I think of it as capturing and leading the mind and subtle initiating and intercepting while entering. Just before you get there, Ikeda Sensei often subtly changes his line.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 01-14-2011, 07:10 AM   #54
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, having actually been in the experience many times, it feels less like anticipation (though unconsciously I won't rule that out) and more like Ikeda Sensei establishes a connection (intent and distance) and begins his technique prior to physical contact. I think of it as capturing and leading the mind and subtle initiating and intercepting while entering. Just before you get there, Ikeda Sensei often subtly changes his line.
I can understand things like that happening, but the instances I was talking about were somewhat different than that and had more to do with Uke obviously wanting to please. I also understand how easy that is to do, the psychology involved, etc., and my comment was simply along the lines that, IMO, the best-case reading of what functionally a demonstration is about can be screwed up by some overly-cooperative Uke's distorting the demonstration through friendly over-cooperation. I.e., my comment is directed at the perspective of what should be happening versus how someone else can be perceiving a demonstration when cooperative Uke's are affecting the demonstration. In the demo's I've explained, the basic principles should be fairly obvious and will hopefully save some people some time with the pragmatics.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 01-14-2011, 07:42 AM   #55
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Mike, quick question hopefully not too off topic...

I find it difficult to apply some if not all of the things I'm thinking about when doing this stuff statically to anything much in motion... I've been working on trying to get my body into a shape when doing this in motion, so I don't wave my arms around or move them, if I want to move my arm, I move my body so that my arm stays in the same shape.

If you were starting to introduce this stuff into a club (not a long established club, only 3 years old) would it be part of every class, or something else until you get the absolute basics instilled?

I play with what little I've picked up but am consciously trying to not overdo it as I don't have much to backup what I'm trying to teach.

Best Regards,
John

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Old 01-14-2011, 08:09 AM   #56
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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John Burn wrote: View Post
Mike, quick question hopefully not too off topic...

I find it difficult to apply some if not all of the things I'm thinking about when doing this stuff statically to anything much in motion... I've been working on trying to get my body into a shape when doing this in motion, so I don't wave my arms around or move them, if I want to move my arm, I move my body so that my arm stays in the same shape.

If you were starting to introduce this stuff into a club (not a long established club, only 3 years old) would it be part of every class, or something else until you get the absolute basics instilled?

I play with what little I've picked up but am consciously trying to not overdo it as I don't have much to backup what I'm trying to teach.
Hi John:

Generally what most people do is learn some basic static jin/kokyu tricks and then weave those into their moving techniques (to some degree) so that they can roughly "use internal strength" in limited scenarios. They will also do limited application of the dantien/tanden/hara and consider that to be "internal strength". My point is that the transition from static training into moving training is always hard and it's the point where most people (usually unknown to themselves and their friends) plateau out. Moving has to take into account more dynamics than just weaving in some sudden-application usages of static kokyu power.

[BTW, just to interject a point, I prefer to say something like "jin" rather than "kokyu", because "kokyu" implies something a little more sophisticated than "jin" which means sort of "trained force skill/vector" in this context. Most people are only doing jin usage but are calling it kokyu.]

Since the principles of ki/kokyu/hara/etc are always going to be the same, the easiest thing to do, no matter what your style, is to look at the exercises Tohei developed to address the problem of taking static kokyu/jin skills into the moving. Starting around 1:43, look at Tohei's suggested methods of beginning to train into the moving usage of internal strength:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nj_7ctIWbM

Tohei (inspired by Ueshiba) did a pretty good job of putting together a series of exercises addressing the difficult transition phase from static to moving, but it's still a difficult time for everyone. In my experience few westerners ever really learn to do the transition well and they tend to be more about normal movement with interjected moments of internal strength. So you're right to focus on it. If you're going after "internal strength" and you instead pattern yourself into "moments of applied static jin/kokyu", you're back into the same old habit of repatterning movements that will limit your progress. There are a lot of traps out there.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 01-14-2011, 02:16 PM   #57
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Interesting post, Mike. I can see how those pitfalls happen as I'm just exploring the most basic exercises.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-14-2011, 04:39 PM   #58
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Another interesting thing about Tohei is that he often showed 'tests' of a student Nage as Nage was moving through a technique. The tests were designed to show that at any stop-moment in a technique a student should still be grounded and powered-up. So a lot of the current discussions are really just a re-hash of principles that Tohei (and others, but Tohei did the most codification) attempted to address 40 years ago. (And no, I'm not a Tohei-o-phile. ).

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 01-18-2011, 11:43 AM   #59
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

In class on Sunday we were working on this concept of extending upward and downward ,through the spine, at the same time as well as out to the sides. I found it rather fascinating. Got to thinking what if one also extended forward and backward?

I also found that it drains a lot of my energy very quickly. Normal? Of course I did catch myself holding my breath or breathing too shallow during the excercise. No doubt this didn't help.

The effect on uke when nage got it just right was pretty cool.

I guess we will be seeing more of this in class in the future which I am excited about.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 12:30 PM   #60
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
In class on Sunday we were working on this concept of extending upward and downward ,through the spine, at the same time as well as out to the sides. I found it rather fascinating. Got to thinking what if one also extended forward and backward?
Hmmmm... lessee... up, down, right, left, forward, backward: that would be the "six directions", but of course a lot would depend upon how you effected the "extending". Some extending is right; some extending is wrong.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 01-18-2011, 12:38 PM   #61
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hmmmm... lessee... up, down, right, left, forward, backward: that would be the "six directions", but of course a lot would depend upon how you effected the "extending". Some extending is right; some extending is wrong.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
I don't doubt that. I think for starters four directions is mind bending enough.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 03:35 PM   #62
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Ki Symbol Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Principles are excellent to discuss. It always helps me get my head around them so that I can apply them better. Not good but better.

I would agree that from what I have experiences, Ikeda Sensei is one of the best examples of applied principles with a sincere desire to transmit them the others.

When I started training directly with him he would often say "Understand?" and of course I didn't even see it let alone understand it. But over time I saw a little more, understood a little more, and eventually could apply a little more (only a little more).

What I heard Ikeda Sensei say a lot was "unity". Musubi, to connect and join centers.

Not sure how that translates to chinese internal terms.

Thoughts?
Ah.................I am not alone in that perspective. I love the discombobulating thing he does when you grab his had and he slowly takes your balance as he smile at you. He mentioned taking away the alignment one's body structure naturally has only slightly but that was enough. It may look fake until one feels it. I just would like to see other practical applications other than just hand grabs for such a principle.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:50 PM   #63
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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I just would like to see other practical applications other than just hand grabs for such a principle.
Keep attending.

Ikeda Sensei takes these sensitivity exercises into full tilt application.

When he says his Aikido works, I can attest to it.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 01-20-2011, 10:13 AM   #64
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

So based on what others are writing and having talked to people that train with him hands on - it looks/sounds like Ikeda is trying to get people to grokk to the basic connecting center to center stuffs. Which you need, but then there's a whole body conditioning aspect that I wonder how explicitly is being addressed? Then there's the skill component, ways to train it (ideally through the taiso and aikido techniques, but that would require relooking at how a lot of techniques get applied, potentially) - and ultimately how to apply it to your chosen martial art (i.e. aikido).
 
Old 01-20-2011, 11:39 AM   #65
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
it looks/sounds like Ikeda is trying to get people to grokk to the basic connecting center to center stuffs.
I have never heard Ikeda Sensei speak Martian or make reference to drinking in anything other than coffee.

IMHO, he is very big on the concept and application of connecting centers ("unity") and moving from there.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 01-20-2011, 12:42 PM   #66
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
So based on what others are writing and having talked to people that train with him hands on - it looks/sounds like Ikeda is trying to get people to grokk to the basic connecting center to center stuffs. Which you need, but then there's a whole body conditioning aspect that I wonder how explicitly is being addressed? Then there's the skill component, ways to train it (ideally through the taiso and aikido techniques, but that would require relooking at how a lot of techniques get applied, potentially) - and ultimately how to apply it to your chosen martial art (i.e. aikido).
Maybe you should go train with him yourself?

Seriously. If you want to know what Ikeda Sensei is doing, the best answer is to go to one of his seminars.

Katherine
 
Old 01-20-2011, 01:56 PM   #67
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Maybe you should go train with him yourself?

Seriously. If you want to know what Ikeda Sensei is doing, the best answer is to go to one of his seminars.

Katherine
Yup, somewhere on the list.
 
Old 01-20-2011, 02:08 PM   #68
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Looks like I am going to get to put on the old white pajamas and make that happen for me this year as well. Or its going to be private and in sweats...I dunno yet. These things usually prove to be very interesting and I hear Mr. Ikeda is a gentleman and very open, so I look forward to it..

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-20-2011 at 02:16 PM.
 
Old 01-20-2011, 02:20 PM   #69
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Looks like I am going to get to put on the old white pajamas and make that happen for me this year as well. Or its going to be private and in sweats...I dunno yet. These things usually prove to be very interesting and I hear Mr. Ikeda is a gentleman and very open, so I look forward to it..

Cheers
Dan
That's awesome. It's only been a year or so, but I am not even sure where my white pajamas are. Moving to a new state and adding another baby to the mix sure creates opportunities to lose things.
 
Old 01-20-2011, 02:39 PM   #70
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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That's awesome. It's only been a year or so, but I am not even sure where my white pajamas are. Moving to a new state and adding another baby to the mix sure creates opportunities to lose things.
Yup, found mine tucked away in an old cardboard box from about ten years ago when my wife was looking for her stuff....and...I lost weight!!!
I'm hoping for sweats and an informal get together.
Dan
 
Old 01-20-2011, 02:44 PM   #71
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
That's awesome. It's only been a year or so, but I am not even sure where my white pajamas are. Moving to a new state and adding another baby to the mix sure creates opportunities to lose things.
Budd:

I use to love it when the "young bloods" would give me shit about going to the dojo 2-3 times a week, when I had four kids at home. I would just tell them that I would patiently await to see how many times they attended after they got married and again, after they had children. I still have the last laugh on that one....

The changes in Ikeda Sensei are impressive. It is equally important to note that he attributes a lot of these changes to his work with Ushiro Sensei. People can dissect what these teachers do on forums to their hearts are content. When they can do what these teachers can do in the types of situations that they can operate in, then their words carry more legitimacy than the those of the backseat drivers.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
 
Old 01-20-2011, 02:54 PM   #72
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

+1
After yacking about it, I was wondering when you were going to post that!!

Dan
 
Old 01-20-2011, 03:22 PM   #73
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Wish I had an expert opinion to toss in....
I've had a couple of seminars with Ikeda Sensei (Thanks Shobu Dojo in Houston) and have been astounded at how MUCH comes out of so LITTLE (read imperceptable) movement.

The phrase IT Has To Be Felt is so very true.
just my two cents

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
 
Old 01-20-2011, 03:33 PM   #74
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Ikeda sensei is a very generous spirit, and very much a gentleman. I am sure you will enjoy him very much.
 
Old 01-20-2011, 04:11 PM   #75
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
People can dissect what these teachers do on forums to their hearts are content. When they can do what these teachers can do in the types of situations that they can operate in, then their words carry more legitimacy than the those of the backseat drivers.
Amen.

 

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