Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-20-2002, 08:42 PM   #26
virginia_kyu
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Arlington, Virginia
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 95
Offline
Kevin I just don't understand how becoming a vegetarian and riding your bike to work will defeat terrorism.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 09:11 PM   #27
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,813
Offline
I seem to remember Saotome sensei saying once, "Peace, peace, peace, peace, peace! So many people going around talking about world peace -- when they're not even at peace themselves!" My take on this was that in order to change the world, one has to have the ability and wherewithal to change oneself...

It's kind of like in aikido; you don't try to move uke -- you move yourself...

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 09:59 PM   #28
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 586
Offline
Quote:
Ueshiba wrote:
"Peace, peace, peace, peace, peace! So many people going around talking about world peace -- when they're not even at peace themselves!"
Amen to that! I also found Kevin's list of things he'd done sort of inspiring. I certainly haven't done anything!

Still, since we are trying to relate to the issues in the world, at least for the purposes of this thread, I guess I'll share the following thought about terrorists and buildings:

In my Seidokan incarnation (where we talked a lot), we talked a lot about the idea of 'shodo o'seiso', or "controlling the first move" (do I have my japanese right?). If you wait until you are being punched to take control of the situation, it will be too late and you will be punched. This is Kevin's (and others) idea that the time to stop the terrorists was well before they boarded the plane, and, ideally, even before that.

On the other hand, sometimes you don't have control of the first move. There you are getting punched. What do you do then? Well, experience teaches us that you get punched. This, actually, is our situation vis a vis terrorists and buildings. We CAN'T do anything to stop the terrorists who flew the planes because they've done it already. It's done.

So, what happens when you get punched? Well, those are the times when you really realize that ukemi is more than half of AiKiDo. You look for ways to receive the attack without losing any more of your balance than you need to. You look for ways to stay engaged with the situation without resisting it. Perhaps later there will also be a time for reflecting on how you got there in the first place. Can we do that with regards to the terrorists and their (our) planes? I'm not sure. I'm open for answers.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 11:49 PM   #29
Deb Fisher
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 145
Offline
Kevin Leavitt wrote:

"You don't "harmonize" with terrorist. The answer is to stop them from wanting to be terrorist in the first place."

Harmonizing is not synonymous with loving or accepting. Harmony is an accord, balance. Within a conflict as intense as 9/11, a persuit of harmony could very reasonably include force. The question is what kind? How? With what kind of understanding? What kind of intent?

Kevin, I think your post eloquently described how and why one might go about harmonizing with a terrorist. Taking responsibility for understanding the problem, your self and your consumption, applying a certain rigor to your own (rightly) emotional reaction - these acts imply that your ideal goal if you ran the circus would be to restore balance, to harmonize.

I have no problem with the idea of using force in this situation, but I think our administration acted stupidly with a big fist, and then moved away from Afghanistan as soon as it could, before it was even finished. I don't think that's harmonizing. I don't think that's going to drain the swamp of economic uncertainty and civil unrest that breeds terrorism.

IMHO, our response was motivated by fear and anger alone, not by a desire to fix the problem, or restore harmony. And IMHO, well that's not very aiki but it's also not effective. I think we are in for a long stupid fight in the middle east, and I think this is a problem with harmony.

I vote to make 15 minutes of daily Tai No Henko mandatory at the White House and that Ranch in Texas too.

Deb Fisher
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2002, 12:03 AM   #30
Deb Fisher
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 145
Offline
Opher wrote:

"So, what happens when you get punched? Well, those are the times when you really realize that ukemi is more than half of AiKiDo. You look for ways to receive the attack without losing any more of your balance than you need to. You look for ways to stay engaged with the situation without resisting it. Perhaps later there will also be a time for reflecting on how you got there in the first place. Can we do that with regards to the terrorists and their (our) planes? I'm not sure. I'm open for answers."

I think this is an excellent point, and strangely absent from the 9/11 spin. Yes, if many individuals 'took the proper ukemi' (not sure if that's in good taste but it really works as a metaphor), staying engaged without resisting, we could:

1. Contemplate our dependency on foreign oil and what that has done to the politics and economy of the middle east, particularly Saudi Arabia. For that matter, contemplate our national appetite for consumption of anything.

2. Have enough balance and presence to participate in the democracy that we ostensibly live in rather than hide behind another rousing (but empty) chorus of God Bless America. Have options, hold GW accountable.

3. Stop living in fear, stop being pushed around by media spin that distracts our attention from the machinations of a creepily secretive administration.

Yes, a question of ukemi... Again, it is only my opinion that we are being seriously bullied by an administration that thinks we are profoundly stupid. We can react to that better.

Interesting!

Deb Fisher
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2002, 04:45 AM   #31
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: the warriors and the peacemakers

Wow, a great post, Kevin. This will be a "tough act to follow;" thanks for sharing.
Quote:
Michael Neal (virginia_kyu) wrote:
Ok, tell me how to learn to live harmoniously with people who are flying planes into your buildings.
I think Kevin said it very well, but I'd like to expand upon one of his points:

How do you live harmoniously with people who crash planes into buildings? As Kevin said, you don't. But stopping people angry enough to do such a thing requires an understanding of the source of their anger. Once you find that out, you face that anger, you redirect it, blend with it (to do otherwise invites an endless cycle of destruction and violence).

To blend requires understanding; to get understanding requires listening. To listen requires being awake, which means being alert: open your eyes to what is going on around you. Question, when the answer seems too "pat." Certainly do not trust those who benefit most from the status quo, and you're in real trouble if they control all aspects of what you see (but there are some sources; the're just hard to find).

If all Americans knew the full story of what our government was doing (as well as the implications), we would instantly stop doing it. Some ppl may like things the way they are, but the majority of us don't. The majority could, and has, changed its course when a situation is no longer acceptable (women suffrage, etc).

In essence, the true way to transform the world is through awareness. Aikido is one (of many) ways to develop this awareness.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2002, 05:24 AM   #32
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,371
Germany
Offline
Michael,

Obviously riding your bike to work and becoming a vegetarian does not stop terrorist directly.

As I stated, you stop terrorist before they want to be terrorist. Obviously once they become terrorist, it is too late and you must use force.

Using Aikido philosophy or eastern philosophy in general requires a long term approach. You must look way down the road.

Yes, there is a connection between these things I have done.

1. You can influence others with your actions, but you can only affect change on yourself. By changing yourself, you influence others. These are the only things we have control over.

So, that said, in order to have harmony with others, you must first have harmony with yourself. (several of the above post by others covers this well.)

By doing the things I mentioned it makes me at peace with myself. Again, I these things are a individual choice, and not something that everyone should do...you find your own way. Also, don't judge anyone by what you do.

How I tie it together with the big picture. Riding my bike to work reduces our oil consumption in the U.S. Not only reducing foreign dependency on oil, but saves are environment some, which BTW we must be in harmony with also.

Becoming a vegetarian: It is a philsophical issue for me as a buddhist, but also functionally positively impacts the carrying capacity of earth, which impacts the environment positively and puts me at peace with myself. (again, YMMV and it is a personal choice).

Reducing wasteful and consumptive spending: Many in our threads have criticized Americans and the west for this very thing. Can't say I don't disagree with them. Lets not get into arguments about the merits/faults of capitalism, I think it is a fine concept, but on an individual basis we can do alot to reduce our indiscriminate waste, which impacts the environment and the world perception.

Lets face it, as I have traveled throughout the world, most people I have run into in 3rd world countries really want to be like Americans. They want a new car, a good job, a house, and Levi's. The desire to have the things that they cannot have creates discord. This discord creates friction in the big picture. A few despots take advantage of this discord and you have a break in the harmony systems!

So, I hope this helps you see how the little things that one person does can have a connection to terrorism.

I don't believe my actions will stop terrorism directly, but hopefully in my short lifetime I can influence others to be mindful of their actions. If everyone did things like this, at least we would be moving more towards peace and harmony, and away from discord. When you think about it, that is all we really have and all we can really do....our best!

Aiki lesson for today:

How can you see this through Aikido? Think about kokyo tanden ho. When you first start learning it as a beginner, you really try hard to use your strength to topple your uke. Work with a good Yundansha, it doesn't work very well does it. As you practice and practice you discover that it is less about trying to use force to topple your opponent than looking at your own body, listening to your own actions, and listening to what signals uke is sending you....you blend with them and it becomes easy.

Same with life, we must first look at our own selves and influence it before we can influence others!

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2002, 11:25 PM   #33
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 586
Offline
Quote:
Michael Neil wrote:
Which brings me full circle to the orginial subject of this thread, "The Misuse of Aikido Philosophy," that many aikidoists use the general philosophy of Aikido, twist it for their own purposes, then try to tell the rest of us that we are being UNAIKI if see politics differently. Or even if we practice the physical aspects of Aikido differently training more for the practical applications.
I feel for you on this one. Coming from Israel (as was discussed in a different thread), I know about how people in the dojo need to painfully aware that the correspondance between THEIR AiKiDo philosophy and THEIR politics will not translate will into a convincing political argument for someone who shares their AiKiDo philosophy but not their politics. Sometimes, we managed to deal with this with AiKi. Other times, people got mad and called each other names. More often than not, we simply did not address the issue.

On the other hand, Perhaps you can see the flip side of the issue. In my own mind, there is a congruence between what I'm learning in AiKiDo and what I believe about the world around me. It can be hard for me to understand that someone else who seemingly shares the underlying philosophy could interpret it so differently when applying it outside the dojo. I have to ask myself: perhaps they don't share the philosophy? Perhaps they haven't thought to apply it? Of course, these may not be the best questions to be asking myself. I'd probably get more mileage out of restating them more gently: What philosophy does underlie their training? How do they see it influencing their life and politics? Still, expecting that of myself is probably like expecting myself not to use force in my techniques. A nice goal, but not one I'm likely to achieve today (actually, today I already didn't ... )

On the other hand, you could choose to see these self-righteous zealots in the same way you choose to deal with people who are 'attacking wrong' and 'messing up your technique': the failures of their aikido are their own, and it doesn't have to be your role to teach them so much as to use them as opportunities to learn. Again, that's an ideal that I rarely achieve.
Quote:
Michael Neil wrote:
Giving the government a wide variety of topics to regulate is exactly what repressive socialism is. ... But in reality human beings run these agencies and human beings have agendas and twist and shape these principles is all sorts of ways eventually using the regulations as weapons against politcal rivals or just simply to wield power over the people.
I still think you have your definition of socialism wrong, but I recognize the underlying point and tend to agree with it. On the other hand, the history of 'unfettered capitalism' is pretty bleak, too, from the sweat shops of the late 18th century to the robber barons of the railroads, unfettered capitalism has inevitably led to slavery in one form or another, as well as to growing disparity between rich and poor up to and including real starvation. It seems to me that the best chance of success is to define pretty clearly what the responsibilities of government really ought to be (health, education, basic welfare, stewardship of the public resources would seem like candidates) and then find a way to set up systems of checks and balances that will prevent the kind of repressive brutality that you are worried about. This is how democracy has worked for us until now (and it is how it is starting to fail now). It is how the bill of rights has protected us. There is no reason it could not work with a few other things, too.

Last edited by opherdonchin : 08-26-2002 at 01:48 PM.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2002, 02:25 PM   #34
virginia_kyu
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Arlington, Virginia
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 95
Offline
I am going to start a new thread since this has become very disjoined.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2002, 02:30 AM   #35
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
Cool looking for the source

Jeez. I wonder how that happened?

Somehow I don't think starting a new thread will help -- but what the heck do I know?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2002, 12:11 PM   #36
virginia_kyu
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Arlington, Virginia
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 95
Offline
I think it has helped alot, seems like it is staying on subject on the new thread, at least for now.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Round Earth Pubs - Book: "Aikido Exercises for Teaching and Training"



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why do some people hate Aikido? Guilty Spark General 609 12-29-2010 04:29 AM
Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward Red Beetle General 358 10-10-2006 11:43 AM
failed? Leon Aman General 15 09-28-2006 05:15 AM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 11:22 AM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:19 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate