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Old 01-14-2011, 11:19 PM   #26
Amassus
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Dave, here is a site I discovered while trying to find someone here in New Zealand that I could train with. He has lots of information about internal strength. Is he doing what Dan H, Mike S, Ark and the others are doing? Who knows. I hope to contact him and see if I can meet up.

http://tukylam.freeoda.com/index.html

I hope those pages help.

Best of luck,
Dean.

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:44 AM   #27
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
mike sigman also has a workshop in europe if you can get to http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18499

or looking up this teacher, wang hai jun, if you can get to some of his workshops. if you get to his workshops, ask for two things: standing exercise and silk reeling.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
To be clear neither this or that is what you are looking for or will help you get where you want to go.
Quote:
Dean Suter wrote: View Post
Dave, here is a site I discovered while trying to find someone here in New Zealand that I could train with. He has lots of information about internal strength. Is he doing what Dan H, Mike S, Ark and the others are doing? Who knows. I hope to contact him and see if I can meet up.

http://tukylam.freeoda.com/index.html
Ok, so http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIpue1bRzwc and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGARqgX9xuw might be closer to what is taught at the workshops and seminars?

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 01-15-2011 at 05:48 AM.
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:17 PM   #28
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

You could try isometric/isotonic exercise......
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:33 PM   #29
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength


Or "How to Develop Aiki in 90 Days".

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 01-15-2011 at 02:35 PM. Reason: smiley

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Old 01-15-2011, 03:36 PM   #30
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Ok, so http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIpue1bRzwc and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGARqgX9xuw might be closer to what is taught at the workshops and seminars?
Dave, I'd encourage you to find a seminar that isolates the IS fundamentals from any form—or at least any long form—so that you're sure to get the core information. Then you can learn any form and apply the core information from the beginning. If you learn the form first, you have to revise it once you do learn the core information.

Mike, Dan and Minoru Akuzawa all teach those kinds of seminars, but Mike may present the purest basic principles with only the barest of form to bother with. Once you work from pure principles, you can be sure to build all your forms well.

I'd rather spend a weekend doing the silk reeling only, if they taught the core principles clearly, than to spend the same weekend learning the 18 step form in the other video. Learning all that form would probably not leave time to learn the inner workings of each part of the form, so it would be less useful, I believe.

Best to you.

David

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Old 01-15-2011, 04:07 PM   #31
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Would like to see it again with subtitles.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:09 PM   #32
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Dave, I'd encourage you to find a seminar that isolates the IS fundamentals from any form—or at least any long form—so that you're sure to get the core information. Then you can learn any form and apply the core information from the beginning. If you learn the form first, you have to revise it once you do learn the core information.

Mike, Dan and Minoru Akuzawa all teach those kinds of seminars, but Mike may present the purest basic principles with only the barest of form to bother with. Once you work from pure principles, you can be sure to build all your forms well.

I'd rather spend a weekend doing the silk reeling only, if they taught the core principles clearly, than to spend the same weekend learning the 18 step form in the other video. Learning all that form would probably not leave time to learn the inner workings of each part of the form, so it would be less useful, I believe.

Best to you.

David
Thank you for your advice. The response I got to my inquiries has convinced me that I should indeed go to such a seminar to find out. Mike has given me access to the Qijin list, so I can be a bit more prepared. I am reading the introduction pages as we speak

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 01-15-2011 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:39 PM   #33
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Would like to see it again with subtitles.
It's a bunch of New Age stuff. No need to listen.

And then I can do agete on you next time we meet!

I'm having to listen to it over and again to get the general idea, but it seems close consideration of the exemplar is worthwhile.

Looks excellent.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 01-15-2011, 07:49 PM   #34
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Thank you for your advice. The response I got to my inquiries has convinced me that I should indeed go to such a seminar to find out. Mike has given me access to the Qijin list, so I can be a bit more prepared. I am reading the introduction pages as we speak
Very good. Think hard about all the fundamentals and remember that even on qi/jin, not everyone knows what they're talking about. I have that on good authority from Mike Sigman. He posted it, or something similar, on one of these threads. I think. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Just remember not everyone does.

Meanwhile, if you want to check out some real root aikido, see my friend, Edgar Kruyning:

http://www.yoseikan.nl/index.php?opt...d=77&Itemid=75

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:51 PM   #35
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Excellent. I can't believe that's available.

You've done a public service!

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:27 PM   #36
Lee Salzman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Excellent. I can't believe that's available.

You've done a public service!

Thanks.

David
To play devil's advocate, what in this video would really train aiki so efficiently that you could learn it in 90 days, or learn it at all? I don't see it.

It seems like many of the illustrated exercises might even teach you the opposite, the habit of keeping your body so rigid that the only thing left to drive the cut is the shoulders, like the man cutting with the sword in the video is doing.

In other cases his body is cutting itself in half before the force ever gets out his arm. Pay attention at the first exercise in 1:30. Look how the force is bleeding out his belt-line. In essence, he is using all the force from his lower body to try and break his spine in half, so that he can, at best, whiplash his arm weakly forward. Also watch how this is causing his front knee to fly over his own foot, uprooting him at the end. Then, as noted earlier, in later exercises, he is just so stiff most of the body is not even being involved at all.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 01-15-2011 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:37 PM   #37
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
To play devil's advocate, what in this video would really train aiki so efficiently that you could learn it in 90 days, or learn it at all? I don't see it.
I dont see anything internal going on there, maybe I need better goggles. Lots of knee walking. There's a diagram that looks cool, but diagrams are easy to find, and I dont understand the dialogue , so it could be that the exercises shown could be used as internal training, but I dont see it.

Of course someone is going to say that's their uncle and who am I to say what. From where I stand , I dont see it either.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:04 PM   #38
Lee Salzman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
I dont see anything internal going on there, maybe I need better goggles. Lots of knee walking. There's a diagram that looks cool, but diagrams are easy to find, and I dont understand the dialogue , so it could be that the exercises shown could be used as internal training, but I dont see it.

Of course someone is going to say that's their uncle and who am I to say what. From where I stand , I dont see it either.
The diagram is even possibly illustrating a postural defect, with a helpful visualization to reinforce the postural defect (hyperextension of lower back causing belly to protrude and bleed force down the front) with mental imagery, which is what he is doing actively in that first cutting exercise even. YMMV.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 01-15-2011 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:19 AM   #39
Mark Freeman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
To play devil's advocate, what in this video would really train aiki so efficiently that you could learn it in 90 days, or learn it at all? I don't see it.
Hi Lee,

This is my viewing of it too, although I don't understand the dialogue, so only have my eyes to trust.
I am always wary of any title that purports to give you something in a shorter time than is usually expected.

Quote:
It seems like many of the illustrated exercises might even teach you the opposite, the habit of keeping your body so rigid that the only thing left to drive the cut is the shoulders, like the man cutting with the sword in the video is doing.
It's hard to know quite how ridgid his body is as it is possible to remain in posture with relaxation, but I completely agree about the cuts coming from the shoulders, apart from the arms it looks like there is no other part of the body being used, apart from being a anchor.

Although videos are interesting to watch and discuss, IMHO the way to learn aiki is to find someone who has it and can do it, then stay with them until you've got it too ( I bet it will take a bit more than 90 days ).

regards,

Mark

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Old 01-16-2011, 04:40 AM   #40
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Seeing the title and content of that video, I assume the tip was given in jest.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 01-16-2011 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 01-16-2011, 04:58 AM   #41
Lee Salzman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Lee,

This is my viewing of it too, although I don't understand the dialogue, so only have my eyes to trust.
I am always wary of any title that purports to give you something in a shorter time than is usually expected.

It's hard to know quite how ridgid his body is as it is possible to remain in posture with relaxation, but I completely agree about the cuts coming from the shoulders, apart from the arms it looks like there is no other part of the body being used, apart from being a anchor.

Although videos are interesting to watch and discuss, IMHO the way to learn aiki is to find someone who has it and can do it, then stay with them until you've got it too ( I bet it will take a bit more than 90 days ).

regards,

Mark
Remaining in that posture with relaxation while in motion is rigidity as well, in essence the body parts are frozen in space and just stabilizing in an unaware fashion, or the opposite mistake being whiplash effects, no? Does it matter if its done with heavy tension or none at all if its misdirected, or in this case, undirected? Now even if you had a teacher show you these exercises, would it help really help? If the teacher himself isn't sure how exactly the exercises help, may Flying Spaghetti Monster help the student...

These exercises, in essence, don't actually teach you what you need to do, if the implication is you need an understanding of what the thing is you're trying to learn to use them to learn it. Sure, you could do maybe do them in a way that could use aiki or internal strength or whatever, but you can do almost any other action as well, So shouldn't the chosen set of exercises actually help illustrate (make obvious) the flaws in our previous habits that need to be corrected and help point the way towards better corrected habits, with or without a teacher? That should be the criteria for any training regimen even if the goal is to learn in 90 months instead of 90 days, no?

Even if the video was linked in jest, it seems perhaps there is a major buyer beware notice to be pointed out by it and the subject of where and what you train...
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:29 AM   #42
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Remaining in that posture with relaxation while in motion is rigidity as well, in essence the body parts are frozen in space and just stabilizing in an unaware fashion, or the opposite mistake being whiplash effects, no? Does it matter if its done with heavy tension or none at all if its misdirected, or in this case, undirected? Now even if you had a teacher show you these exercises, would it help really help? If the teacher himself isn't sure how exactly the exercises help, may Flying Spaghetti Monster help the student...

These exercises, in essence, don't actually teach you what you need to do, if the implication is you need an understanding of what the thing is you're trying to learn to use them to learn it. Sure, you could do maybe do them in a way that could use aiki or internal strength or whatever, but you can do almost any other action as well, So shouldn't the chosen set of exercises actually help illustrate (make obvious) the flaws in our previous habits that need to be corrected and help point the way towards better corrected habits, with or without a teacher? That should be the criteria for any training regimen even if the goal is to learn in 90 months instead of 90 days, no?

Even if the video was linked in jest, it seems perhaps there is a major buyer beware notice to be pointed out by it and the subject of where and what you train...
I'm not juding the usefullness or quality of execution of the exercises shown in the video. But IMHO these exercises have little to do with the IS exercises that are the subject of this thread. I also think that the poster was fully aware of that when he posted it.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 01-16-2011 at 05:37 AM.
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:47 AM   #43
Lee Salzman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I'm not juding the usefullness or quality of execution of the exercises shown in the video. But IMHO these exercises have little to do with the IS exercises that are the subject of this thread. I also think that the poster was fully aware of that when he posted it.
Ah, the error could lie on my end because I was never good at discriminating what is sarcasm on these newfangled intertubes. Perhaps I misread the conversation that ensued from the initial link posting...

But still, how many might have looked at that video and its title, as well as its claimed origin, and decided they were actually legitimate training tools? Hell, not too long ago, I might have looked at the video and been fooled by it enough to consider it, rather than immediately picking it apart. Stuff like that, that is prescriptive video broadcasted for everyone to see and not just surface discussion, really deserves to be judged, so the unwary don't fall into the trap. If it has little to do with what is being discussed in this thread, it is helpful for us to understand why rather than assume we're all on the same page.

Perhaps it was the fact that I realized not too long ago I might have been fooled by certain aspects of the presentation of that matter that is what set off my pet-peeve meter in the first place, and hence I am judging the usefulness and quality of execution...

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 01-16-2011 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:59 AM   #44
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Ah, the error could lie on my end because I was never good at discriminating what is sarcasm on these newfangled intertubes. Perhaps I misread the conversation that ensued from the initial link posting...

<snip>

If it has little to do with what is being discussed in this thread, it is helpful for us to understand why rather than assume we're all on the same page.

Perhaps it was the fact that I realized not too long ago I might have been fooled by certain aspects of the presentation of that matter that is what set off my pet-peeve meter in the first place, and hence I am judging the usefulness and quality of execution...
My untrained eye sees no flaws in the execution of these exercises and I'm sure one would build up strength by doing them. Even though the japanese term Aiki (the first part of aikido) can be translated as Internal Strength, I guess the video is just a commercial for selling a DVD with Daito-Ryu solo exercises. The 90 days claim seems purely commercial to me.

I know little about IS (that's why I started this thread) but from what have learned up to now, I would characterise IS exercises by deliberate, continuous, flexible, subtle and fluent whole body motion, focusing on leg strength rather than arm strength. To me, the exercises in the 90-days video don't really look like that. It looks more linear and more focused on arm strength (I could be mistaken though).

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 01-16-2011 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:56 AM   #45
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
My untrained eye sees no flaws in the execution of these exercises and I'm sure one would build up strength by doing them. Even though the japanese term Aiki (the first part of aikido) can be translated as Internal Strength, I guess the video is just a commercial for selling a DVD with Daito-Ryu solo exercises. The 90 days claim seems purely commercial to me.

I know little about IS (that's why I started this thread) but from what have learned up to now, I would characterise IS exercises by deliberate, continuous, flexible, subtle and fluent whole body motion, focusing on leg strength rather than arm strength. To me, the exercises in the 90-days video don't really look like that. It looks more linear and more focused on arm strength (I could be mistaken though).
Nobody takes any notice do they......
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:01 AM   #46
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I'm having to listen to it over and again to get the general idea, but it seems close consideration of the exemplar is worthwhile.
I'm pretty sure I see what they're trying to say, David, but I don't think it's particularly revelatory. I could say "do Taiji and you will get internal strength", but saying that and doing a form for you isn't going to tell you the myriad unsaid things that are going on.

For all practical purposes, those people are saying "do Tanren and you will develop Aiki". Really? Farm Out.

2 cents.

Mike
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:07 AM   #47
markyboy64
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I have some questions about training for Internal Strength.

I read quite a few posts about internal strength on AikiWeb, and I'm interested in learning more about it. But I am not quite sure what it is exactly. I've tried to find out more on YouTube. Is it something like this or this?

I also read that it is very much possible and even required to do a lot of solo exercises to improve ones internal strength. What kind of exercises are these? Are they something like this or this? (Well, these examples aren't solo, but my wife might be an exercise partner)

Might these solo exercises be learned from video or would I require a personal teacher to teach me the right way to solo exercise? (I wouldn't know where I can find someone that teaches this kind of stuff in my area)

(Perhaps I should have started this topic under "Training", but I wasn't sure if this topic would qualify as an Aikido training topic)
Aikido,Taiji,bagua,Yichuan ect are all based on exercises that involve the whole body to drop into the ground (gravity).
Taiji calls this cold power,other names are Ki or Chi.
In other words" You" bring everything to the table at once.

Here in the mysterious mountain town of Plymouth, England call it plyometrics.
Plyometrics is a modern term.I prefer the term used by the great Jedi master Sir Isaac Newton,he called it the third law of physics.

Moving from the centre,shaking of the waist,fajin, are terms used to mask what it really is and make money from something that is free.

A 7th dan Aikidoka tried to perform nikyo on me about ten years ago,although he was a lowly 6th dan then and failed miserably,even though he claimed before hand that nobody had ever stopped him doing one before in thirty years.
He said my ki was very powerful.A nice compliment I thought,from someone who had been koiche toheh's European uke in the mid 70s.

Aikido,Taiji/Bagua are simple arts.People who make them complicated are doing more art than martial.

Training for balance and proprioception is what will make you more powerful.
Training techniques will only allow you to fight off wheel chair bound muggers,should the shit hit the fan.
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:19 AM   #48
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure I see what they're trying to say, David, but I don't think it's particularly revelatory. I could say "do Taiji and you will get internal strength", but saying that and doing a form for you isn't going to tell you the myriad unsaid things that are going on.

For all practical purposes, those people are saying "do Tanren and you will develop Aiki". Really? Farm Out.
Well, they are definitely promoting it as 90 Days to Aiki. It's not just the title, but it's in the written headings within the video.

Your points are well taken as are some of the other comments that look at what the people are actually doing.

I still want to study this clip, though, and work out what the narrator is actually saying.

I recently did a bunch of bokken work and after just a couple of days, my lower back was killing me. And for the first time I seriously thought, maybe the highly respected teacher who taught me this way made a mistake. Or maybe he just never bothered to correct the mistake I made over thousands of cuts in his presence. Maybe he doesn't really cut that way, himself. Maybe he has lower back trouble, too, and just bears it, which could explain a bit about his personality. So I've been doing some serious re-evaluation of my most fundamental use of bokken and I see some things in the clip that could be interesting to work with.

Well, someone's bound to put out a 30 day version soon, anyway...

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:39 AM   #49
kewms
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I recently did a bunch of bokken work and after just a couple of days, my lower back was killing me. And for the first time I seriously thought, maybe the highly respected teacher who taught me this way made a mistake. Or maybe he just never bothered to correct the mistake I made over thousands of cuts in his presence. Maybe he doesn't really cut that way, himself. Maybe he has lower back trouble, too, and just bears it, which could explain a bit about his personality. So I've been doing some serious re-evaluation of my most fundamental use of bokken and I see some things in the clip that could be interesting to work with.
I'll bet you arch your lower back while doing sword work. That both makes your lower back sore and makes you unstable, tending to tip backwards. Studying a video of yourself might be more useful than studying this (or any other) video.

Katherine
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:42 AM   #50
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, someone's bound to put out a 30 day version soon, anyway...
Well, in the spirit of things, I will teach everyone how to do "aiki" in one easy lesson. In order not to insult O-Sensei or even Daito-Ryu, I will form my own art and instead of calling it "Aikido", I will call it "Meik-do".

Send me a check for $300 to

Mike Sigman
P.O. Box 1129837-A
Lower BomFok, Indiana

And I will send you the secret video of how to Meik-do in one day on the internet.

Yours in Sincerity.

Mike Sigman
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