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Old 01-14-2011, 01:28 PM   #51
lbb
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Re: Is there another solution?

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Allot of people have a similar and common view point of my ego that day. I know where they are coming from. I expected more of those opinions. These opinions are inline with how my Mother sees such situations. She would say to me as a kid if I got in some kind of dispute, "you didn't hold your temp (refering to ego), you didn't walk away then you are equally in the wrong!" Both me and my brother would both be punished even though my brother was picking on me. My mother's view is pretty universal. As common as that view is, it isn't always a healthy solution to see things that way.
I understand what you're saying. I used to struggle a lot, too, in situations where I felt the other party was "more wrong"...and when I say "struggle", I mean it was impossible for me to get past this. I still struggle with it, a lot, but a friend once told me something that helped me see my way past this. This was years ago, and I'm still learning this lesson.

She was listening to me vent about...jeez, I don't even remember what it was about, but it was one of these unfair situations where I felt the other party was "more wrong". I knew that my friend thought I was being wrong-headed about that, so I expected her to disagree with me. To my surprise, she agreed that the other person was "more wrong", with no equivocation. Then she gently pointed out that while that was true, it wasn't relevant, because it wasn't the real source of my feeling upset.

I find it very telling that today, thinking back on that moment, I can't even remember what I was upset about originally. All that I can remember is the emotional distress that I had built up in myself over being the more wronged party. It was no longer about the harm that had been done to me, and all about...what? that the two of us weren't equally harmed?

There is such a thing as blaming the victim. When a person is hurt and we blame them for crying out, that's blaming the victim. But I feel that I now have a sense of the difference between blaming the victim, and recognizing when a person who's been hurt has gotten into a pattern of intensifying their hurt rather than dealing with it or letting it rest. Looking back, I can see plenty of pity parties that I threw for myself over the years. Each one had its origin in a real hurt that was done to me...but I don't remember having any fun at those parties.

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Was I equally in the wrong. I will say that proportionally the Adam Henry sensei's was 90 % in the wrong, and the much of the blame rests on him. My mother would not agree with me. She has the popular view that ego is bad. I can't see that being very realistic. Having an ego is good too. Being completely ego-less like a Buddhist monk isn't functional 100% in the world most of us live in. Being egoless works well if you live in a Buddhist monastery where that view is cultured like a pearl. Outside of that work it doesn't work like that. Ego has a function, both positive and negative. For some reason society treats Ego as a bad thing.
I have a question for you: all those times when your mother tried to tell you to let go of the need to figure out what percentage of the blame rests where, why do you think she did it? Do you think she did it because she hated you and liked your brother more? Do you think she did it because she wanted to beat you down and crush your will?

Or do you think that perhaps she was trying to help you?

The books never balance. Your mother understood that, is my guess. The books never balance, and if you get stuck on that and spend your energy trying to make them balance, all you'll get is a headache and a heartache. You've written pages in this thread arguing about how you were in the right. For all you know, the other sensei could do the same. If we heard his side of the story, it might sound equally compelling. But even if that's not the case, you have no means of extracting the sort of "justice" you are going after. I asked you before: you said you wanted respect. Do you feel that you got respect as a result of your actions? You are still not happy and at rest about the situation. You seem to want unconditional validation. Will that really help you?

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In my situation, I was being insulted, and mocked, based on a sensei's arrogance and feeling he had to dominate me. My ego kicked in as it should as a safe guarding mechanism for self-protection. Without that ego doing its job, I would be nothing but a punching bag. I would have no self-esteem, or confidence without ego. I would be reduced to the status of a batter wife syndrome mentality. My self-esteem and confidence crushed, subordinate to Adam Henry sensei's abuse, i.e. his bitch. My ego needed to be in place to prevent that. I need to show him I wasn't his bitch.
No. You may not yet know how it is possible to maintain one's self-esteem and confidence without being at the mercy of your "ego kicking in" when it's poked. You may believe that there is only one possible response to a perceived attempt to dominate you. This is not so, but to see the other options, you have to be able to trust that you can let the story line go, let the drama drop, not play the game -- and still not be harmed. Right now, you don't believe that, you don't trust that. I don't blame you. I've been in a very survival-minded place where there was only one possible response to a perceived threat. The only way to find other responses is to get to a place where you know that you don't have to come out with guns a-blazin' in order to not be harmed. There are ways to move in this direction, and if you'd like, I'd be happy to point you at some things that have helped me a lot. I hope also that you will trust me when I say that it's a better place to be.

By the way -- and I regret to bring this up -- I've wanted to say this for several of your posts now, and I've sat on my hands, and I'm not going to do it any more. As a woman, I find your use of the term "bitch" insulting and offensive. I know that it's become commonplace in the culture to use this term in this way; still, it is a sexist usage that perpetuates sexist attitudes that are harmful to women. If you don't want to do this, please consider choosing another word (and if you have trouble finding one, that might be cause for reflection about the harm that has already been done in our society by the pervasive use of this term).
 
Old 01-14-2011, 01:28 PM   #52
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is there another solution?

I didn't think the idea was to apportion percentages of blame but to identify possible alternative responses or outcomes.
If scenarios and life itself is posited as/lived as a competition of defensive egos, then I suppose the OP did what he felt he had to. I think it's a pretty narrow vision of life's possibilities and of defining self-respect.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 01-14-2011, 01:53 PM   #53
RED
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Re: Is there another solution?

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I don't see another solution to the situation that would have supported my self-confidence and self-esteem.
To support your sense of self, you need to make choices that show respect yourself. When we lose control of our emotions we are not showing respect for ourselves. We have to be more kind to ourselves than this. IMO

MM
 
Old 01-14-2011, 01:54 PM   #54
"Reg"
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Re: Is there another solution?

Mr. Rubin,

I will be happy to do it. Putting up my story here of me being invited to a dojo where I was being manipulate, set-up and hijacked, I got many responses that reshaped my view. At the time of first posting here, I started on the fence with uncertainty and lack of understanding from where my friends where coming from. I questioned my action after the class. Did I go too far. Should I have shown more restraint, did I step outside of the background of the dojo? Over the course of this discussion, I have a greater understanding of how they see things and my actions. I am convinced I did the right thing. I have a greater understanding and appreciation of my fellow sensei and friend's view.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 02:30 PM   #55
"Reg"
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Re: Is there another solution?

The point where I thought I went too far is when I choked out the Adam Henry sensei after class. Did I show proper restraint, I stand that up against the great amount of restraint I showed during the class when the Adam Henry sensei was screwing me and insulting me during class. My background given reflects my professionalism and manner.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 02:36 PM   #56
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Re: Is there another solution?

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The point where I thought I went too far is when I choked out the Adam Henry sensei after class. Did I show proper restraint, I stand that up against the great amount of restraint I showed during the class when the Adam Henry sensei was screwing me and insulting me during class.
Unfortunately, the two don't balance out. They don't cancel each other. You're going to be stuck unless you can think of it in terms other than "this balances that". It may take a while for you to be comfortable with that idea, but fighting to make wrongs cancel each other out never works. In the meantime, maybe it's worth taking the pragmatic view that you could have ended up in a world of trouble. You thought you could control your choke, you thought you would not choke him out, and you were wrong. That should tell you that you were also not in control of how much damage you inflicted. You're depriving a person's brain of oxygen, and that's an action with a lot of risk involved. If you don't want to be fully responsible for all the possible consequences, to him and to you, then don't take the risk.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 03:27 PM   #57
Hellis
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Re: Is there another solution?

Reg
As you expected, there are many varied opinons here, some are genuine, others are from people that would not have the courage to do anything other than hide behind their own idea of `Aikido principals `...what is important is that you did what ``you`` felt was right, you seem content with that, which I agree with, then that is all that matters...............
Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
 
Old 01-14-2011, 11:27 PM   #58
niall
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Re: Is there another solution?

1.It's a good thing to ask for advice.
2.It's pointless if you don't listen to it.
3.Having put yourself in that situation of course there was a possibility that the teacher would use it to take cheap shots. So not having expected that was already a mistake.
4.If you had reacted at the time on the mat it wouldn't have been the best way to handle it but it would have been more understandable.
5.After the training "baiting" the teacher to get your revenge was the worst mistake. It cannot be justified.
6.You could have left any time. During the training or after the training.
7.Continuing to say you were right is another mistake.
8.Think about how your own teacher(s) might have handled it.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:38 AM   #59
"Reg"
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Re: Is there another solution?

Mr. Ellis, I understand what you are saying. I have and will take your advice.

@ those people, it is understandable your point of view. It has helped. It is not like I will set a precedence for how to act in my situation. You don't have to worried about anyone and everyone coming into your dojo and choking you out (momentarily). The my situation wouldn't have happen unless you acted as the Adam Henry sensei acted. If you conduct yourself professionally when a guest enters your dojo, I don't see an issue. Remember it was his dojo, he is the leader, he is the host.
 
Old 01-15-2011, 01:07 PM   #60
C. David Henderson
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Re: Is there another solution?

Reg,

You're free to live your life the way you want to. But please don't think this situation is about you being brave, Ellis Sensei's kind words notwithstanding.

Its about having lost control because you allowed yourself to be goaded and the impact that's had on your relationships.

And you allowed yourself to be goaded because you were afraid of how you would look if you said anything.

Don't confuse a penchant for losing control when your "self esteem" is challenged with courage.

If you allow someone else to dictate your choices and your responses, you've given away your power and abdicated your freedom as a person to decide what you will do, when you will do it, and how it will be done.

That includes the possibility of choking someone out.

Now you seem to be saying we're all okay around you as long as we don't diss you.

Which seems to imply you'd do the same thing all over the same way.

You're relying on us not to act like "adam henry" in order not to worry that your behavior is some sort of precedent.

I'm not convinced that's true; but it seems to reflect that you're really not ready to accept responsibility for what happened -- for your 10 percent to be your fault, without comparing it to his 90.

FWIW

Respectfully.

David Henderson
 
Old 01-15-2011, 02:33 PM   #61
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is there another solution?

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Reg
As you expected, there are many varied opinons here, some are genuine, others are from people that would not have the courage to do anything other than hide behind their own idea of `Aikido principals `...what is important is that you did what ``you`` felt was right, you seem content with that, which I agree with, then that is all that matters...............
Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Hear Hear!!!!!!
Reg....
I personally felt you showed too much restraint........

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-15-2011 at 02:37 PM.
 
Old 01-15-2011, 03:43 PM   #62
"Graham J."
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Re: Is there another solution?

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Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Reg,

Don't confuse a penchant for losing control when your "self esteem" is challenged with courage.

If you allow someone else to dictate your choices and your responses, you've given away your power and abdicated your freedom as a person to decide what you will do, when you will do it, and how it will be done.

That includes the possibility of choking someone out.
I agree whole-heartedly.

There is a reason why murder - acting with pre-meditation - is universally seen as worse than manslaughter - acting in the heat of the moment.

Say what you like about getting revenge being good - but what kind of revenge, and for what reason...?
Why not just walk the fuck away - is the ego so weak?
 
Old 01-15-2011, 04:34 PM   #63
"Yes another solution"
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Re: Is there another solution?

With him carrying on as if nothing happened, you missed the opportunity to show him the folly of his ways. Better would have been to let him struggle on helplessly in your grip.
 
Old 01-15-2011, 05:36 PM   #64
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Re: Is there another solution?

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With him carrying on as if nothing happened, you missed the opportunity to show him the folly of his ways. Better would have been to let him struggle on helplessly in your grip.
lol
That sir is what we more commonly call "a dick move".

MM
 
Old 01-15-2011, 07:21 PM   #65
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Re: Is there another solution?

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The time to deal w/ a bully is the moment the bullying starts and to do so in a quiet, non-agressive but totally firm and implacable way while - assuming it is safe to do so - exiting the situation. Sometimes to avoid pointless arguement/escalation, it actually becomes necessary to stay so on message verbally that it begins to sound silly - like a mantra. I've never had this not work even when I have in fact felt I might be in actual danger.
I like this answer.

Staying and letting him beat you up is potentially dangerous for you, and makes you complicit in the lesson he is giving his students. As you observed, it's not an Alpha Dog response, no matter what you do after class.

Staying and reversing his technique (during class) might work in some situations, but is risky because it might just make him angry, and then someone (probably you) would get hurt. As long as he defines the nature of your attack, he will always have the advantage.

Handling the situation as you did still makes you complicit in the in-class lesson to his students, while also putting you on the same level: of taking unfair advantage of a rigged situation. (Judging from the response of those who were there, it didn't establish your Alpha-ness, either.)

Women don't do the Alpha Dog thing in the same way that men do, and I notice that most of the critics of your response are women. I have observed, though, that one way in which Alpha Dogs settle things between themselves is to step outside. If you really must show him "who's boss," then invite him to spar with you, as equals. Since most bullies are also cowards, the chances of him declining the invitation are good, and if he does your Alphaness is confirmed.

"I won't fight with you on your own mat. I'm leaving now."
"If you'd like to spar, we can do that, but I didn't come here to be bullied. I'm leaving now."

(Naturally, offering to spar with him is risky unless you believe yourself to be his peer, which wasn't clear from your post. If you think he's better than you, then it's best to just get out of there.)

Katherine
 
Old 01-15-2011, 07:31 PM   #66
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Re: Is there another solution?

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In my situation, I was being insulted, and mocked, based on a sensei's arrogance and feeling he had to dominate me. My ego kicked in as it should as a safe guarding mechanism for self-protection. Without that ego doing its job, I would be nothing but a punching bag. I would have no self-esteem, or confidence without ego. I would be reduced to the status of a batter wife syndrome mentality. My self-esteem and confidence crushed, subordinate to Adam Henry sensei's abuse, i.e. his bitch. My ego needed to be in place to prevent that. I need to show him I wasn't his bitch.
Sorry, but your ego didn't protect you here. It kept you on the mat, taking his abuse, for the entire class. The way to avoid being a "battered wife" is to leave.

(Incidentally, a friend of mine was murdered by her husband. For you to describe being knocked down a couple of times in the same terms is extremely offensive.)

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 01-15-2011 at 07:37 PM.
 
Old 01-15-2011, 09:35 PM   #67
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is there another solution?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
(Incidentally, a friend of mine was murdered by her husband. For you to describe being knocked down a couple of times in the same terms is extremely offensive.)

Katherine
I've been assuming he is using it as it is used in prison language for a male forced to submit to another male.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:42 PM   #68
kewms
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Re: Is there another solution?

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I've been assuming he is using it as it is used in prison language for a male forced to submit to another male.
I'm sure he is. It's still offensive, since by no stretch of the imagination did his situation match that level of coercion.

Katherine
 
Old 01-15-2011, 11:11 PM   #69
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Re: Is there another solution?

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Cause I don't live in a cave, I walked unsuspectingly into a bad place. A risk that has to be taking if you want to live in society. When I went there it was his ego being threatened he choose to be on the offensive showing all the classic negative signs of ego.
Isn't this how martial artists end up in jail? Some bozo goads you into nuking his sorry @$%? And then the prosecutor convinces the jury that because of your training you have a responsibility to have better control than that?

Just saying...

Katherine
 
Old 01-15-2011, 11:31 PM   #70
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is there another solution?

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I'm sure he is. It's still offensive, since by no stretch of the imagination did his situation match that level of coercion.

Katherine
Oh, totally agreed.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:28 AM   #71
Benjamin Mehner
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Re: Is there another solution?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm sure he is. It's still offensive, since by no stretch of the imagination did his situation match that level of coercion.

Katherine
It is not only people in prison or people in abusive relationships that use that word. It is a commonly used word among American youth, It is often used in a comical way (see "I'm Rick James, bitch!), it is often used in an affectionate way between friends, and it is often used in a harmful way.

Your personal tragedy does not give you ownership of the word. It does not give you the right to dictate the way that society uses that word. People will continue to refer to their friends, enemies and victims as their bitch no matter what you or I think of it.

Let silence be my mantra.
 
Old 01-16-2011, 01:45 AM   #72
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Re: Is there another solution?

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It is not only people in prison or people in abusive relationships that use that word. It is a commonly used word among American youth, It is often used in a comical way (see "I'm Rick James, bitch!), it is often used in an affectionate way between friends, and it is often used in a harmful way.

Your personal tragedy does not give you ownership of the word. It does not give you the right to dictate the way that society uses that word. People will continue to refer to their friends, enemies and victims as their bitch no matter what you or I think of it.
Actually, I was much more offended by his comparing his situation to that of a battered wife, thereby demonstrating his total lack of understanding of what spousal abuse actually entails.

In any case, I understand that I'm unlikely to persuade him to change his use of the language, just as this thread has clearly failed to persuade him to change his approach to conflict. *shrug* The struggle is still worth the minimal effort it took to post.

Katherine
 
Old 01-16-2011, 07:36 AM   #73
Amir Krause
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Re: Is there another solution?

Reg

In the first post, you asked for opinoins on YOUR Behavior, not on the other behavior.

The person you visited did not behave as a sensei (teacher) at all. He did not repect his visitors, and he abused you.

But, this was not the subject of your own questions, you asked about your own behavior: "was there another solution".

The simple answer is yes, there are other solutions when faced with a bully. Those solutons starts at your being able to think and control your emotions, and act in coolness and not out of rightous anger. Had that been your situation, you could have done much better.
Lets make an anlalogy of your situaiton to the mat, and examine your conlict resolution:
* You were attacked multiple times
* You absorbed all of those attacks, never moving out of line, never deflecting
* At the end of the confrontation, you attacked with devestating force.
To me, this sounds like medicure boxing at best, deinitly not like Aikido:
-> You did not sense his intention to attack, even after the mpth time.
-> You did not move out of line
-> You did not create any Kuzushi

Aikido entails much more then the techniques in a static situaiton, and in my eyes, in this situation you failed to employ it. Had I been you, I would have gone back to training on the mat, and try to reflect much more on my practice, slighlty beyond the narrow confines of the mechnical practice.

I do not claim toexcel at this,on the contrary, I too need lots of practice in such conflicts. Especially when "rightous anger" is involved, those are the situaitons in which I find the emplying my training is hardest - but this is the reason I practice more, and I would not have found the result you got acceptable - In strive to get much better results out of a conflict.

Amir
 
Old 01-16-2011, 09:08 AM   #74
Walter Martindale
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Re: Is there another solution?

Hi...
Most dojo I've visited have a requirement that - unless you have already met with people in the dojo, or unless you're introduced by a member of the dojo - you watch a session before taking part in one.

I tend to do that anyway - "Hi, I'm new in town and have practiced a little Aikido - I'm looking for a dojo - may I watch a session? Oh, no, sorry, I didn't bring my gi (or some other excuse.) If they don't let me observe a session, I don't bother...

The purpose? To get a sense for how the sessions are run. To see how the sensei/sempai (or equivalent) relate to those with whom they are training.

Perhaps if you had done this you could have decided that you didn't like the way the instruction and individual correction was carried out.

Cheers
Walter

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 01-16-2011 at 09:10 AM.
 
Old 01-16-2011, 04:34 PM   #75
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Re: Is there another solution?

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It is not only people in prison or people in abusive relationships that use that word. It is a commonly used word among American youth, It is often used in a comical way (see "I'm Rick James, bitch!), it is often used in an affectionate way between friends, and it is often used in a harmful way.

Your personal tragedy does not give you ownership of the word. It does not give you the right to dictate the way that society uses that word. People will continue to refer to their friends, enemies and victims as their bitch no matter what you or I think of it.
I was the one who objected to the use of "bitch", not Katherine. As someone who comes from the half of humanity that is disparaged by this use of "bitch", I don't need someone in the other half of humanity to tell me that people will continue to use sexist language whether I like it or not, and that I don't have the "right" to "dictate the way that society uses that word". I'm well aware of my lack of both rights and power in this area. But you don't have the right to tell me that I may not call out a sexist use of language when I see it. And it doesn't matter if the person using this term in this instance didn't create all the sexism attached to the meaning of the term (when was that ever the case, with an offensive term?). It doesn't matter if it was used just because it's a handy label. It is a sexist term that perpetuates sexist attitudes. If you don't give a damn about that, certainly, you have the "right" to continue to use it. If you do give a damn about that, then choose a different word.

Last edited by lbb : 01-16-2011 at 04:38 PM.
 

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