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Old 01-10-2011, 10:58 AM   #151
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties. Milton, Areopagitica.
And a philosopher too........ blimey
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:14 PM   #152
Gorgeous George
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
It's different in football, cricket, ball sports and any other sports until it comes to martial combat sports. Whether it's got rules or not , how can you measure your ability without some form of competitive measure or match? You cannot know your ability without it.....
It only makes sense......
Koichi Tohei, Gozo Shioda, etc., ad infinitum, fought in WWII...yet strangely, they didn't come back and introduce competition into their aikido.

...not that i'm suggesting facing people who want to kill you, day after day, for years (y'know: in a war?), is a better test of martial efficacy than playing a game with rules a few times a week, of course - that's what martial arts were designed for: effectiveness when playing, hahahaha.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:26 PM   #153
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Koichi Tohei, Gozo Shioda, etc., ad infinitum, fought in WWII...yet strangely, they didn't come back and introduce competition into their aikido.

...not that i'm suggesting facing people who want to kill you, day after day, for years (y'know: in a war?), is a better test of martial efficacy than playing a game with rules a few times a week, of course - that's what martial arts were designed for: effectiveness when playing, hahahaha.
Graham you wouldn't know......
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:47 PM   #154
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Koichi Tohei, Gozo Shioda, etc., ad infinitum, fought in WWII...yet strangely, they didn't come back and introduce competition into their aikido.
Well, Tomiki Sensei also served, as combatives instructor in Manchukuo and, after the war, he worked as combatives instructor for USAF SAC and was heavily involved in the developement of Kodokan Goshin Jutsu kata (forms of self defense). Maybe he did know a pair of things about how to train for self defense.
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:07 PM   #155
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Well, Tomiki Sensei also served, as combatives instructor in Manchukuo and, after the war, he worked as combatives instructor for USAF SAC and was heavily involved in the developement of Kodokan Goshin Jutsu kata (forms of self defense). Maybe he did know a pair of things about how to train for self defense.
And unfortunately as a prisoner of war in Siberia....
Where, its said, he came up with the tandoku undo and unsuku exercises, and trained whilst in his captivity....
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:14 PM   #156
Eric Winters
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Hello,

I do not think competition is a bad thing at all. Problems come up when you take advantage of the rules and doing so is not martially sound. If you are pressure testing your training and following good martial principles then I think that can only make your technique better. I have been training in Iwama Ryu for many years and I wish we had something along the lines like the Tomiki guys.

I don't think Ueshiba had a problem with competition only turning Aikido into a sport. I remember being around when Morihiro Saito would come to Northern California to teach and he would tells stories about how in Iwama they would take new blackbelts to a bar and get them into a fight. Ueshiba would find out and tell them that was wrong and then ask if the they won. That sort of tells me he did not have a problem with pressure testing.

Eric
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:41 PM   #157
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Eric Winters wrote: View Post
I have been training in Iwama Ryu for many years and I wish we had something along the lines like the Tomiki guys.
What happened with?
Quote:
Morihiro Saito. Traditional Aikido, Vol 5 (p. 39-40) wrote:
Variety and sequence of training methods.
...
(5) Freewheeling training.

This is a "no holds barred" exercise allowing your partner to use whatever techniques he wants and you are to cope with them in a freewheeling manner.
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:11 PM   #158
Aikirk
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I have managed to put people on their asses without resorting to such crude devises, even in real life , but if and when they produced a blade, tanbo came in bloody useful.... Nice bloke tanbo..
As for the pressure points Only if you are deadly accurate...
You have never been in a real altercation in your life mister.... that is obvious to me....
Yes, some form of accuracy is what every art is aiming for. But clearly you haven't been studying this, as they aren't that difficult to hit, even in motion. Most people think they have to be struck with pin point accuracy with the index finger, but the underarm, fist, elbow or the likes will in most cases do the trick. If you know how to apply them well, you can nail people to the ground with a knuckle or knock them out only by adjusting the angle of attack on the place you usually hit but get no response from.

No I haven't, and I'm rather proud of it! Self defense and martial arts has a place on earth only beacuse there is a risk of being attacked. The number one priority must be to avoid confrontations. But when looking at your picture I can see that we have very different opinions on this matter.
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:31 PM   #159
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Yes, some form of accuracy is what every art is aiming for. But clearly you haven't been studying this, as they aren't that difficult to hit, even in motion. Most people think they have to be struck with pin point accuracy with the index finger, but the underarm, fist, elbow or the likes will in most cases do the trick. If you know how to apply them well, you can nail people to the ground with a knuckle or knock them out only by adjusting the angle of attack on the place you usually hit but get no response from.

No I haven't, and I'm rather proud of it! Self defense and martial arts has a place on earth only beacuse there is a risk of being attacked. The number one priority must be to avoid confrontations. But when looking at your picture I can see that we have very different opinions on this matter.
As I thought..... keep on bunnying.....

Like your honesty though...

Yeah ugly bugger ain't I.....

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-10-2011 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:36 PM   #160
Flintstone
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Thumbs up Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Quote:
Morihiro Saito. Traditional Aikido, Vol 5 (p. 39-40) wrote:
Variety and sequence of training methods.
...
(5) Freewheeling training.

This is a "no holds barred" exercise allowing your partner to use whatever techniques he wants and you are to cope with them in a freewheeling manner.
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:40 PM   #161
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Eric Winters wrote: View Post
Hello,

I do not think competition is a bad thing at all. Problems come up when you take advantage of the rules and doing so is not martially sound. If you are pressure testing your training and following good martial principles then I think that can only make your technique better. I have been training in Iwama Ryu for many years and I wish we had something along the lines like the Tomiki guys.

I don't think Ueshiba had a problem with competition only turning Aikido into a sport. I remember being around when Morihiro Saito would come to Northern California to teach and he would tells stories about how in Iwama they would take new blackbelts to a bar and get them into a fight. Ueshiba would find out and tell them that was wrong and then ask if the they won. That sort of tells me he did not have a problem with pressure testing.

Eric
I think the Iwama stuff is what Proff Ueshiba taught and showed to those who were genuinely interested..... all the demo stuff was just for show and it got the attention of those who "thought" what they were seeing was the real deal..... I have practised some Iwama stuff and it differs very little to T/S aikido, only in that they don't do shiai in the same way as we do that's all..... Also the T/S syllabus is more condensed. Iwama style is more encyclopaedic, but good solid practice....
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:48 PM   #162
Aikirk
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
As I thought..... keep on bunnying.....

Like your honesty though...
No more arguments i see. I don't consider myself an "aikibunny" just because I choose not to get in fights on regular basis. I would consider myself "smart" though.

In every aspect of my practice I strive to push my limits every time I train. So, my good man, I believe you are way off and I would advice you to stop guessing.
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:59 PM   #163
Hellis
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

It is amusing to hear the same spiel from all those that have never been in a serious hostile situation.
They seem to be at home in the " Aikido Dream " thread.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:59 PM   #164
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
No more arguments i see. I don't consider myself an "aikibunny" just because I choose not to get in fights on regular basis. I would consider myself "smart" though.

In every aspect of my practice I strive to push my limits every time I train. So, my good man, I believe you are way off and I would advice you to stop guessing.
I don't guess I sense......i
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:03 PM   #165
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
It is amusing to hear the same spiel from all those that have never been in a serious hostile situation.
They seem to be at home in the " Aikido Dream " thread.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
That's allright Henry, dreaming is nice for dreamers..... I like my reality, it gives me great freedom to speak my mind........

You know, I know, We are lucky.....
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:15 PM   #166
Aikirk
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I don't guess I sense......i
Then you sensed wrong.
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:33 PM   #167
Gorgeous George
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Well, Tomiki Sensei also served, as combatives instructor in Manchukuo and, after the war, he worked as combatives instructor for USAF SAC and was heavily involved in the developement of Kodokan Goshin Jutsu kata (forms of self defense). Maybe he did know a pair of things about how to train for self defense.
That's very interesting; but it's beside the point, and off-topic.

The point under discussion was whether playing games is essential to achieving martial effectiveness - not whether Tomiki Sensei taught self defence, thus legitimising his approach, and its effectiveness.

...but wait: doesn't the Yoshinkan headquarters train the Tokyo riot police...?
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:57 PM   #168
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Then you sensed wrong.
You just don't like to know you are beaten is the real truth.....
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:17 PM   #169
Aikirk
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
You just don't like to know you are beaten is the real truth.....
Beaten? On the streets? I don't think I ever have been. In our discussion? Even less. The winner of an discussion is not the first one to run out of arguments, you know.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:10 PM   #170
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Beaten? On the streets? I don't think I ever have been. In our discussion? Even less. The winner of an discussion is not the first one to run out of arguments, you know.
yeeeeeesh......
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:14 PM   #171
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
That's very interesting; but it's beside the point, and off-topic.

The point under discussion was whether playing games is essential to achieving martial effectiveness - not whether Tomiki Sensei taught self defence, thus legitimising his approach, and its effectiveness.

...but wait: doesn't the Yoshinkan headquarters train the Tokyo riot police...?
Yes and so does the Shodokan train police personel.....

and judo and kendo and..... well .......... ecky thump?
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:22 AM   #172
Eric Winters
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Hello Demetrio,

I never did that exercise just the standard randori and resistance training. I suppose when I open a dojo I will have to develop my version of that type of practice.

Best,

Eric
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:11 AM   #173
Eric Winters
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Hello Tony Wagstaffe,

I train in TSYR with a Sandan in Tomiki Aikido, he has got good solid technique. Once we have some sort of understanding of what Toby Threadgill does I hope to get together with him and exchange some ideas on aikido.

Best,

Eric
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:33 AM   #174
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Eric Winters wrote: View Post
Hello Tony Wagstaffe,

I train in TSYR with a Sandan in Tomiki Aikido, he has got good solid technique. Once we have some sort of understanding of what Toby Threadgill does I hope to get together with him and exchange some ideas on aikido.

Best,

Eric
That's marvellous, I don't know Toby Threadgill, but from what little I've heard and seen I would say that he is a most genuine and open minded teacher.....
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:35 AM   #175
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

I take an opposite approach. I do not see competition and sports as things that remove spiritual enlightenment from martial arts, I just see them as a different path to gaining the same enlightenment.

I think many old martial art masters were just that, namely old and locked in their ways. They couldn't see that sports offer the same paths as their ways because they were not their ways.

I think man learns the most about himself when he tests himself. Training for and competing in competition is one way to approach that. As I watch my wife train for an upcoming marathon, I see her go though the same personal discoveries, hardships and awakenings that I myself encountered when training in martial arts.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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