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Old 01-09-2011, 08:19 AM   #101
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
"If you think its all about competition then you are deluded, if you think it is all about not competing then you are also deluded."

So in the middle is about right......

Quote:
"Many talk about the martial aspect but I don't hear many talking about the Art aspect. When you have developed and gained the skills of something you become competent. Then you progress and and get more and more confident. In the end you can apply those skills at ease, in any situation, and it thus becomes a graceful application and now you are an artist. Now you have reached the art."

Better star calling myself "o" sensei then........
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:21 AM   #102
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
We all know he did condemn it as a sport so all the debates thereafter are to do with 'why?'.
Why? Because his understanding of "sport" didn't matched with his understanding of "aikido".

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Old 01-09-2011, 08:37 AM   #103
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Better start calling myself "o" sensei then........
Why not? You've already borrowed the name of his martial-art.

M.
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:39 AM   #104
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Why not? You've already borrowed the name of his martial-art.

M.
I'll have to "buy" into it as well then.....

I'm thinking not to call it "aikido" anymore, 'cause it upsets too many bunnies.......

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-09-2011 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:55 AM   #105
mickeygelum
 
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Who cares...he's dead.
You can not ask him his opinion. Anyone attempting to speak for him is just putting words in his mouth. He's dead, his technique was flawed and it took several notable students to really refine his idea and promote it further. Most are fluff and some are not. He's dead, he could not teach as is evident with his nonsensical ramblings that are still undecipherable today as when he uttered them. He's dead, given the customs and culture of Japan in the era he lived, formality and etiquette was priority, he was a religious fanatic, who was hypocritical. He's dead, had he lived today, he would have had his ass handed to him by oh-so-many people.

You folks are alive, why worry yourself with what may or may not have been the thought of a man who has been dead longer than some of you have been alive. Go, train become proficient and knowledgable, test your skills..so you do not end up just as dead as he is before your time!

Train hard,
Train real,
Train well,

Mickey
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Old 01-09-2011, 10:29 AM   #106
Flintstone
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I'll have to "buy" into it as well then.....

I'm thinking not to call it "aikido" anymore, 'cause it upsets too many bunnies.......
Oh, welcome to Flintstone Ryu!
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:12 AM   #107
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Oh, welcome to Flintstone Ryu!
"Randori and Shiai (Free-practice and Competition)

In 1886 the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Academy hosted a tournament between the Kodokan and the prominent Jujutsu ryu, Totsuka-ha Yoshin-ryu, to determine which "style" the Academy would adopt into their training regiment. Of the tournament's 15 matches the Kodokan won 12, drew one and lost two (Muromoto 2005). The reason why the Kodokan was so successful at this historic meeting lies in one word: Randori. Randori or free sparring trained Kano’s judokas in as close to real life and death combat as possible.

Randori training, unlike kata training, pits you against a fully resistive, uncooperative opponent. Only through randori and shiai does one truly test the mind, body and spirit under adverse conditions. Judo competition demands that its participants execute techniques against a fully resistive opponent, when physically drained, out of breath, and gasping for air. Such an experience can never be gained through self-defense training via kata or form work alone, no matter how realistic the scenario may be".
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:14 AM   #108
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Who cares...he's dead.
You can not ask him his opinion. Anyone attempting to speak for him is just putting words in his mouth. He's dead, his technique was flawed and it took several notable students to really refine his idea and promote it further. Most are fluff and some are not. He's dead, he could not teach as is evident with his nonsensical ramblings that are still undecipherable today as when he uttered them. He's dead, given the customs and culture of Japan in the era he lived, formality and etiquette was priority, he was a religious fanatic, who was hypocritical. He's dead, had he lived today, he would have had his ass handed to him by oh-so-many people.

You folks are alive, why worry yourself with what may or may not have been the thought of a man who has been dead longer than some of you have been alive. Go, train become proficient and knowledgable, test your skills..so you do not end up just as dead as he is before your time!

Train hard,
Train real,
Train well,

Mickey
Ding Dong....
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:15 AM   #109
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Oh, welcome to Flintstone Ryu!
Yep welcome......
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:23 AM   #110
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Dave Plaza wrote: View Post
How about Egokido?!?

No offence intended, but that's one crazy ego you have my friend...



Dave
No just honesty which you lack......
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:27 AM   #111
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
In 1886 the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Academy hosted a tournament between the Kodokan and the prominent Jujutsu ryu, Totsuka-ha Yoshin-ryu, to determine which "style" the Academy would adopt into their training regiment. Of the tournament's 15 matches the Kodokan won 12, drew one and lost two (Muromoto 2005). The reason why the Kodokan was so successful at this historic meeting lies in one word: Randori.
The 1886 tournament story is most probably another made up BS.

Quote:
Randori training, unlike kata training, pits you against a fully resistive, uncooperative opponent. Only through randori and shiai does one truly test the mind, body and spirit under adverse conditions. Judo competition demands that its participants execute techniques against a fully resistive opponent, when physically drained, out of breath, and gasping for air. Such an experience can never be gained through self-defense training via kata or form work alone, no matter how realistic the scenario may be".
I fully agree with this but this is totally unrelated with Ueshiba opinions on sport and budo and why he held said opinions.

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Old 01-09-2011, 11:39 AM   #112
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The 1886 tournament story is most probably another made up BS.

I fully agree with this but this is totally unrelated with Ueshiba opinions on sport and budo and why he held said opinions.
Who really cares .....???? Only the aiki bunnies, 'cause it doesn't fit in with their comfortable delusion.......

The truth is as I've already said.......

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-09-2011 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:50 AM   #113
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
The truth is as I've already said.......
Col. Jessep mode on:

The truth? You can't handle the truth!!!

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Old 01-09-2011, 11:58 AM   #114
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Col. Jessep mode on:

The truth? You can't handle the truth!!!
and you can?.....
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:50 PM   #115
Gorgeous George
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
if you think it is all about not competing then you are also deluded.
By this standard, Koichi Tohei and O'Sensei were deluded...but then: they're widely acknowledged as possibly the two greatest aikidoka ever.
Hmm...
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:54 PM   #116
Gorgeous George
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
"Randori and Shiai (Free-practice and Competition)

In 1886 the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Academy hosted a tournament between the Kodokan and the prominent Jujutsu ryu, Totsuka-ha Yoshin-ryu, to determine which "style" the Academy would adopt into their training regiment. Of the tournament's 15 matches the Kodokan won 12, drew one and lost two (Muromoto 2005). The reason why the Kodokan was so successful at this historic meeting lies in one word: Randori. Randori or free sparring trained Kano’s judokas in as close to real life and death combat as possible.

Randori training, unlike kata training, pits you against a fully resistive, uncooperative opponent. Only through randori and shiai does one truly test the mind, body and spirit under adverse conditions. Judo competition demands that its participants execute techniques against a fully resistive opponent, when physically drained, out of breath, and gasping for air. Such an experience can never be gained through self-defense training via kata or form work alone, no matter how realistic the scenario may be".
...all those judoka who were unable to defeat aikidoka must have erm, forgotten to do their randori that week...
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:55 PM   #117
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
By this standard, Koichi Tohei and O'Sensei were deluded...but then: they're widely acknowledged as possibly the two greatest aikidoka ever.
Hmm...
Quite possible.....
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:57 PM   #118
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
...all those judoka who were unable to defeat aikidoka must have erm, forgotten to do their randori that week...
Graham, that is what I would expect from a bunny.......
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:59 PM   #119
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
...all those judoka who were unable to defeat aikidoka must have erm, forgotten to do their randori that week...
You forget that all those aikidoka were judo players to start with......
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:08 PM   #120
Gorgeous George
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Quite possible.....
...yeah: I think you're missing the point I was making: namely, that aikido is about not competing, and that's how you get good at it...
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:09 PM   #121
Gorgeous George
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Graham, that is what I would expect from a bunny.......
Cool! You win! What a great argument that is!!1!

And you berate others for their inadequate explanations?
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:11 PM   #122
Gorgeous George
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
You forget that all those aikidoka were judo players to start with......
QED

Damn...
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:11 PM   #123
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
and you can?.....
Maybe. I'll tell you when I find it.

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Old 01-09-2011, 01:14 PM   #124
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
...yeah: I think you're missing the point I was making: namely, that aikido is about not competing, and that's how you get good at it...
yeeeahh......
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:17 PM   #125
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe. I'll tell you when I find it.
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