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Old 12-17-2010, 12:48 AM   #151
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Hello Matthew,

The central focus of the Kojiki story is death. After the encounter with Izanami, Izanagi states:

「吾は、いなしこめ、しこめき穢き国に到りて在りけり。故、吾は御身の禊を為む」

Philppi translates this as:

"I have been to a most unpleasant land, a horrible, unclean land. Therefore I shall purify my body."

The Japanese editor of the Kojiki gives the following rendering in more modern Japanese:

「私は何とも、醜い、醜い汚れた国に行っていたものだ。だから、私は身体の穢れを洗い清めよう」

With good reason Philippi cites the Chinese chronicle Wei zhi, which was composed in 280 AD and so predates the Kojiki by 500 years. A closer translation than Philippi had access to:

"After the burial, the deceased's family members plunge into water to purify themselves from contamination, which is similar to the purifying ablution [practised in the middle Kingdom]."

Philippi also quotes Motoori Norinaga, who rejects a spiritualizing interpretation, insisting that pollution of the body, not of the soul, was meant:

"Exorcism and purification are for the purpose of cleansing the pollutions of the body. To say that they are for exorcising and cleansing the spirit is a concept completely alien to Japanese antiquity." (Philippi, Kojiki, p. 68.)

Of course, it is not alien to much more modern Japanese notions, especially Jinja Shinto, which is the postwar successor to State Shinto (国家神道). However, (1) this implies over 1,000 years on interpretation of the Kojiki text and (2) I am not sure that Jinja Shinto can be equated with Omoto-kyo.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 12-19-2010, 07:17 AM   #152
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I see in some of the older stuff the use of kokoro and I was not familiar with that term. The phrase later came up in "Budo Training in Aikido." It seems to be used as a general term that describes the unification of mind (intention) and body. Oddly enough, it seems the translation chooses to use this term in addition to spirituality (implying maybe some separation between ki as "intent of the mind" and a spiritual connotation?). I enjoyed hearing more about that concept though; thank you Dr. Goldsbury.
Hello Mr Reading,

I missed this short post of yours. Kokoro is a concept that is as multi-focused as KI. One of the problems involved in a translation for non-Japanese speakers, who have been brought up in an intellectual tradition influenced by Descartes, is that the translation has to make choices. So, you have the semi-Cartesian distinction of body / mind / heart / soul / spirit and an English translation of kokoro has to take account of the last four of these. When I have the time, I will spell out the various meaning of 心 kokoro in detail.

In addition, I did not stress the fact that the third definition of KI in my earlier post (#110) defined the term as a way of talking about the kokoro and cautioned that there were many such ways. It did not define KI in terms of kokoro itself. So it is a mistake, in my opinion, to find a spiritual meaning of KI simply because the word KI is used in expressions relating to kokoro.

Best wishes,

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 12-19-2010 at 07:21 AM.

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Old 12-20-2010, 06:06 AM   #153
mrlizard123
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

I've read through the whole thread and was wondering if we could all agree on one thing:

kindness does begin with ki


Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:36 AM   #154
Flintstone
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Only in writing. At least in English. Yes.
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:41 AM   #155
mrlizard123
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Only in writing. At least in English. Yes.
Damn...

*takes fishing rod elsewhere*

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Old 12-20-2010, 08:43 AM   #156
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
In addition, I did not stress the fact that the third definition of KI in my earlier post (#110) defined the term as a way of talking about the kokoro and cautioned that there were many such ways. It did not define KI in terms of kokoro itself. So it is a mistake, in my opinion, to find a spiritual meaning of KI simply because the word KI is used in expressions relating to kokoro.
Dr. Goldsbury,
Jon please; Mr. Reading is still my father. I did not mean to take your definitions beyond the scope of your explanation, but I appreciate the clarification. In fact, I was [unclearly] throwing out that in Budo Renshu, Kokoro was used as a separate term from spirit, implying they were in fact distinctly separate items. I find that like your parting comment, we almost get affirmation that kokoro is not the same as spirituality, as it is explained in Budo Renshu.

Thank you for the further clarification. I am finding kokoro a difficult subject on which to find information outside native Japanese, and within the scope of aikido.
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:12 PM   #157
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Rob John made a seemingly boyish comment back in post #122:

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
This thread is just screaming with Robot Chicken potential...

Ki is Kindness ...with Ueshiba running around saying how the secret lies in ejaculating through a rice paper door

Sorry, couldn't help myself
Hold that thought a minute and take a look at Professor Goldsbury's comments on Misogi, procreation, and so forth, a few posts back from this one.

Then take a look at this excerpt from the website:
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew88808.htm

Quote:
The Origins of Misogi-kyo

Misogi-kyo was one of the thirteen religious groups designated "Sect Shinto" (shuha shinto) by the Meiji government. It has never been a large movement (in 1995 it reportedly had a membership of 99,180), but, like the better-known Kurozumi-kyo, with which it shares several features, its early history and teachings vividly illustrate the religious world of late Tokugawa Japan. The group has its origins in the activities and teachings of Inoue Masakane (1790-1849), son of a samurai employed in the domain of Tatebayashi (in today's Gunma Prefecture).[13] When Inoue was eighteen,[14] he practiced Zen under the guidance of Tetsuyu Zenni, an Obaku nun in the lineage of Shoto Mokuan (1611-1648). A year later, he set off on a journey to seek the guidance of various Shinto, Confucian, and Buddhist teachers, and eventually completed a stint in the Chinese medicine school of Nagata Tokuhon (1513-1630). By the age of twenty-five, Inoue began training under the Kyoto physiognomist Mizuno Nanboku. He underwent a strict regimen, carrying out menial work for his teacher and restricting himself to simple food and dress. It was reportedly during this time that Inoue learned to regulate his breath by concentrating it below his navel.

After mastering the disciplines of the Nanboku school, the young man (now twenty-eight) moved to Edo and began practicing divination (under the name Shueki). The following year he added finger-pressure therapy (shiatsu ryoho) to his growing repertoire of physical and spiritual skills.

From about this time Inoue started to formulate his own system of therapeutic arts. He began to attract a small following, supporting himself in the meantime by practicing medicine (under the name Toen). But his search was not yet over. At the age of forty-four he happened to hear some Shinto teachings from an old woman in the Tatebayashi domainal residence in Edo; he is said to have been profoundly moved and subsequently had a "divine dream" (shinmu) that inspired him to take up the "way of the gods." The next year (1834) he returned to Kyoto and enrolled in the Shirakawa (Hakke) school of Shinto, where he was initiated into ritual ablution (misogi) and, reportedly, breath-control practices.[15] When he was forty-seven, Inoue received approval from the Jingikan to carry out Shinto worship rituals, and, two years later, he was permitted to supervise miko ceremonial duties. In 1840, he became shrine priest of the Umeda Shinmei Shrine in Musashi (under the name Shikibu).

Once he obtained this official status, Inoue began to propagate in earnest the purification rituals that were to become the central practices of Misogi-kyo. But by 1841, his teaching activities had aroused the suspicions of the Superintendent of Temples and Shrines (Jisha bugyo), and he was imprisoned along with his wife, Onari. The Shirakawa house appealed to the Superintendent to remove the charges, but with little success--though Inoue was transferred to the custody of the Umeda community. The following year, he wrote a summary of his teachings and presented it to the authorities, presumably in order to exonerate himself.[16] But the office of the Superintendent continued to view Inoue and his teachings as a potential threat to the public order, and exiled him to Miyakejima.[17] He is said to have occupied himself there by healing the ill, praying for rain, building shrines, supervising silkworm cultivation, and building reservoirs. He died in exile at the age of sixty.
Note the underlined and bolded part about concentrating the breath (the ki) under the navel (i.e., at the tanden, the one point).

What I'm getting at is that Rob John's comment, while somewhat indecorous, is related to the commentary about misogi in the text-box above. One of the side effects of the breathing where you concentrate the breath below the navel is that you regain or retain strong sexual function as you develop some unusual strength via "ki" training. This is a basic factor in the development of "ki" strength and it's the reason the breathing practices are so importantly associated with Aikido (and many other Asian arts). Rob's comment may have been borderline ribaldry, but O-Sensei's known comment about rice-paper doors probably had more to do with Misogi and the sexual function of breathing exercises in Misogi than it does with kindness.

YMMV

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:36 PM   #158
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Rob John made a seemingly boyish comment back in post #122
...Rob's comment may have been borderline ribaldry, but O-Sensei's known comment about rice-paper doors probably had more to do with Misogi and the sexual function of breathing exercises in Misogi than it does with kindness.

YMMV

Mike Sigman
I thought it was irony at its best! And from what I've been told, we of the male gender do tend to be kinder after, well, "ki breathing exercises." So maybe there's the missing link to this thread...
FW(L)IW
Matt

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