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Old 12-21-2010, 04:46 AM   #576
sakumeikan
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Of course, but think of them as demonstrations to using bodily mechanics as to the woo woo that many allude to on this site.....
Whether one accepts the concept of Ki or adopts the view that everything can be explained through physics in my Aikido career I have met certain Shihan who are/were capable of being able to be immovable,despite the fact that in certain cases the ukes [sometimes more than one ] could not budge /lift the Shihan despite very vigourous efforts. Anyone who ever trained with Tamura Sensei for example , certainly would know what I am referring to.
On the question of Ki in relation to no contact [Takeda Sensei ]/ no touch knock out stuff [George Dillman] as seen on some You tube vids I am a bit more sceptical .
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Old 12-21-2010, 06:38 AM   #577
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Whether one accepts the concept of Ki or adopts the view that everything can be explained through physics in my Aikido career I have met certain Shihan who are/were capable of being able to be immovable,despite the fact that in certain cases the ukes [sometimes more than one ] could not budge /lift the Shihan despite very vigourous efforts. Anyone who ever trained with Tamura Sensei for example , certainly would know what I am referring to.
On the question of Ki in relation to no contact [Takeda Sensei ]/ no touch knock out stuff [George Dillman] as seen on some You tube vids I am a bit more sceptical .
Good point Joe.

I'd say that at his size Tamura was an excellent example of someone who found an extra dimension of power through his Aikido practice.

Whether others consider this to be Chi / Ki or whatever is up to them but he definitely had "something".

So for me, this "something" is part of what I aspire to in my training and to write it off completely makes little sense...in fact to try and do Aikido without ki...well, you might as well call it something else - Ai do perhaps?

(although personally I'd think of it more as jujitsu...and hasten to add that there is nothing wrong with jujitsu at all - it just isn't Aiki in my view)

Cheers

D
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Old 12-21-2010, 06:47 AM   #578
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Oh sorry, maybe you should take lessons on how to tell jokes using "ki" .....
And maybe you should keep track of who you're talking to, and lighten up on the emoticons.

This thread was full of fail from the start and it hasn't improved. I'm out.
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:26 AM   #579
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Yes, exactly: they are demonstrations of the abstract principles that underlie aikido - and are demonstrated (or: should be) in order to illustrate this.

Obviously there is no evidence for claims of supernatural causes of these 'powers', and I haven't seen anyone claiming to the contrary here (not that I read a lot of what is said...).

I do recall reading an interview with Koichi Tohei, incidentally, in which he said that, when giving a demonstration one day, and after a night of heavy drinking - still suffering the effects - o'sensei said 'The spirits/gods will not enter you in that state.' - meaning that he wouldn't be able to do aikido due to the lack of spiritual aid.
He could, of course...
I expect he was feeling a lot more relaxed after the effects of the alcohol...... I know I do!!!!!......
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:27 AM   #580
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
And maybe you should keep track of who you're talking to, and lighten up on the emoticons.

This thread was full of fail from the start and it hasn't improved. I'm out.
Stay well Mary......
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:01 AM   #581
Hellis
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Whether one accepts the concept of Ki or adopts the view that everything can be explained through physics in my Aikido career I have met certain Shihan who are/were capable of being able to be immovable,despite the fact that in certain cases the ukes [sometimes more than one ] could not budge /lift the Shihan despite very vigourous efforts. Anyone who ever trained with Tamura Sensei for example , certainly would know what I am referring to.
On the question of Ki in relation to no contact [Takeda Sensei ]/ no touch knock out stuff [George Dillman] as seen on some You tube vids I am a bit more sceptical .
Hi Joe

I don't doubt for one moment that `Ki` exists in some form. The problem for me, and I suspect many others,is the stupid things that some people do in the name of `Ki`.
That is probably why some people hate Aikido, I also believe that hate is the wrong word, perhaps ``ridicule `` would be more fitting.
Derek Eastman my associate for over 50 years, can, as taught by Nakazono Sensei, sit in a chair with two or three guys who can't push him over, I can't do that
He also kneels and several guys can't push him over, I can't do that either
I have no real explanation, what I do know is that he is not breathing through his toes, or demonstrating Ki with ribbons, neither of us can throw people from a distance without touching them.

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:03 AM   #582
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Shuji Maruyama, Sensei was careful in his reference to what we on this thread are calling ki. In my opinion he called what we worked on "development of correct feeling". Practice and testing was done in a cooperative way.
Once correct feeling is established it becomes a reference from where all technique can be applied.
At Berkshire Hills Aikido we train to be mindful, relaxed and to continue the development of correct feeling. Both cooperative ki development and realistic training have a place on our mat.
Mary

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 12-21-2010 at 08:05 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:03 AM   #583
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Whether one accepts the concept of Ki or adopts the view that everything can be explained through physics in my Aikido career I have met certain Shihan who are/were capable of being able to be immovable,despite the fact that in certain cases the ukes [sometimes more than one ] could not budge /lift the Shihan despite very vigourous efforts. Anyone who ever trained with Tamura Sensei for example , certainly would know what I am referring to.
On the question of Ki in relation to no contact [Takeda Sensei ]/ no touch knock out stuff [George Dillman] as seen on some You tube vids I am a bit more sceptical .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2U...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk

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Old 12-21-2010, 08:08 AM   #584
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Henry,

Looks like another Jack Poole in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tefEf...eature=related

The guy attending the "knocked out" Guy.....

Tony
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:14 AM   #585
Mike Sigman
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
I don't doubt for one moment that `Ki` exists in some form. The problem for me, and I suspect many others,is the stupid things that some people do in the name of `Ki`.
That is probably why some people hate Aikido, I also believe that hate is the wrong word, perhaps ``ridicule `` would be more fitting.
Derek Eastman my associate for over 50 years, can, as taught by Nakazono Sensei, sit in a chair with two or three guys who can't push him over, I can't do that
He also kneels and several guys can't push him over, I can't do that either
I have no real explanation, what I do know is that he is not breathing through his toes, or demonstrating Ki with ribbons, neither of us can throw people from a distance without touching them.
Hi Henry:

I can show you how to do those "ki" tricks in fairly short order, but they're basically just methods of controlling the body and forces in the body and they certainly don't represent much in the way of the sophistication of "ki" skills that can be developed. I personally see "ki" as simply a very old method of explaining how things worked; something like our old western system of humours. In the final analysis, those paradigms weren't sustainable as explanations for what was actually happening, but there was nothing wrong with the phenomena they attempted to explain. Many/most Asian martial-arts styles use the ki/qi paradigm to explain things the body can actually do and often there are people making extravagant claims about ki that are simply baloney, to use the technical term.

However, I don't think "ki" is what causes so much antagonism toward Aikido in the rest of the martial world. Without speculating aloud about why I think Aikido has developed a reputation, particularly in the rest, I simply wanted to say that I don't think it's got a lot to do with "ki" things. For the most part, Aikido people today don't have much knowledge or interest in ki things, so I'd doubt the relationship between ki and how Aikido is viewed.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:15 AM   #586
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjVvh...1&feature=fvwp

Real "ki"............
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:48 AM   #587
Hellis
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Henry,

Looks like another Jack Poole in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tefEf...eature=related

The guy attending the "knocked out" Guy.....

Tony
That guy should be dressed in red in Walmart.

Henry
Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:53 AM   #588
Hellis
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Henry:

I can show you how to do those "ki" tricks in fairly short order, but they're basically just methods of controlling the body and forces in the body and they certainly don't represent much in the way of the sophistication of "ki" skills that can be developed. I personally see "ki" as simply a very old method of explaining how things worked; something like our old western system of humours. In the final analysis, those paradigms weren't sustainable as explanations for what was actually happening, but there was nothing wrong with the phenomena they attempted to explain. Many/most Asian martial-arts styles use the ki/qi paradigm to explain things the body can actually do and often there are people making extravagant claims about ki that are simply baloney, to use the technical term.

However, I don't think "ki" is what causes so much antagonism toward Aikido in the rest of the martial world. Without speculating aloud about why I think Aikido has developed a reputation, particularly in the rest, I simply wanted to say that I don't think it's got a lot to do with "ki" things. For the most part, Aikido people today don't have much knowledge or interest in ki things, so I'd doubt the relationship between ki and how Aikido is viewed.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Hi Mike

Long time !
Now there's a good old English word we don't hear so much of these days "" Baloney "" very descriptive non the less.

Best regards

Henry
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:13 AM   #589
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

As it relates to the original post, I would say the point of aggravation aikido has with other arts, particularly Japanese arts, boils down to a perceptual problem with the integrity of Aikido. I think some of these problems transcend perception and are real problems within aikido; some of these problems are localized to individual organizations, dojo, or instructors. The vast publication of "bullshido" does not help contain these problems as we all now can view the sheer incompetency of idiots (thank you, YouTube). The problem is that it is a lot easier to find proof of bad aikido than good aikido.

I think aikido is perceived to be a "shortcut" to mastery that bypasses our sister arts, and sometime in a rather derogatory manner. Why train 20 years in judo? "Become an aikido master and throw judo players around like rag dolls." Why train 20 years in karate? "Karate people are limited to their shallow physical training and can never transcend into oneness with the universe." Why train MMA? "Fighters are neaderthals who just like to hit things." We can be pretty elitist sometimes; the fact that some of the people saying these things also happen to be on YouTube doing something stupid doesn't help... Nor does it help the people we deride could kick the crap out of us.

As that argument relates to ki... Well, I think Mike's comments about ki is spot on... Ki is an Eastern term to describe a variety of elements within a primitive world. Its comparison to the Western term humours is (I think) a good comparison. That is not to say that ki does not exist, only that its definition is currently lacking modern science. In the meantime we make ourselves vulnerable to charlatans who abuse this lapse in definition. I defer to those who are better able to define and explain ki to help moderize the concept so we can begin culling out the ficticious employers of ki.

In the meantime, my practice is to take ki with a grain of salt, much as I would accept "thingamabob", "dohickey" and "Whazzit" as adequate descriptors. ( I can hear it now... "Use your Thingamabob to knock down your partner." What?...)
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:26 AM   #590
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Tony,
I would not under pain of death compare this person and his ability??? with the likes of Tamura Sensei and a few others.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:34 AM   #591
Mike Sigman
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
We can be pretty elitist sometimes; the fact that some of the people saying these things also happen to be on YouTube doing something stupid doesn't help... Nor does it help the people we deride could kick the crap out of us.
Voila' !.... erm, generally speaking.
Quote:
As that argument relates to ki... Well, I think Mike's comments about ki is spot on... Ki is an Eastern term to describe a variety of elements within a primitive world. Its comparison to the Western term humours is (I think) a good comparison. That is not to say that ki does not exist, only that its definition is currently lacking modern science. In the meantime we make ourselves vulnerable to charlatans who abuse this lapse in definition. I defer to those who are better able to define and explain ki to help moderize the concept so we can begin culling out the ficticious employers of ki.

In the meantime, my practice is to take ki with a grain of salt, much as I would accept "thingamabob", "dohickey" and "Whazzit" as adequate descriptors. ( I can hear it now... "Use your Thingamabob to knock down your partner." What?...)
I think it was Tohei that asked, one time, about a high-ranking shihan: "Where's his ki?". Point being that ki is by definition a part of Aikido. Granted, I don't know any part of ki that can't be described in terms of modern physics, anatomy, kinesiology, etc., but the skills are difficult to come upon if someone uses normal strength as their base skill. So it's always interesting to me how the term "ki" has, through lack of knowledge about the substance, become synonymous with some far-out esoteric and non-functional aside, in a number of Asian martial-arts. It's sort of like a permutation of Ellis Amdur's "Hidden in Plain Sight" that goes something like "Refusing to look at the obviously important".

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:44 AM   #592
sakumeikan
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Good point Joe.

I'd say that at his size Tamura was an excellent example of someone who found an extra dimension of power through his Aikido practice.

Whether others consider this to be Chi / Ki or whatever is up to them but he definitely had "something".

So for me, this "something" is part of what I aspire to in my training and to write it off completely makes little sense...in fact to try and do Aikido without ki...well, you might as well call it something else - Ai do perhaps?

(although personally I'd think of it more as jujitsu...and hasten to add that there is nothing wrong with jujitsu at all - it just isn't Aiki in my view)

Cheers

D
Hi Daren ,
Nice to hear from you.My other example of an exceptional Aikidoka was the late great Sekiya Sensei.He was not an exceptionally big built man, of average height, very soft but after establishing contact with you he totally controlled you with virtually no effort on his part. Sekiya Sensei in his training stressed good posture and relaxed shoulders .At the time of meeting him I was a
a bit physical[years of Judo training].Sensei advised me to train as though I was very ill, using minimum strength and see if I could get maximum effectiveness with minimum effort.
I do think that this advice had some bearing on my later Aikido development.At the age of 72 i think Sekiya Sensei's advice
is every bit as pertinent now as it was in mid 70s.
I also was pinned down by Sekiya Sensei with a Kesa Gatame hold and despite my experience/youth I could not budge him.I felt like a building was on top of me.
Did Sekiya Sensei use Ki?He certainly used something.
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:07 PM   #593
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Tony,
I would not under pain of death compare this person and his ability??? with the likes of Tamura Sensei and a few others.
Cheers, Joe.
No, I wouldn't think you would, but goes to prove that there are many nutcases about, where ever you go.....
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Old 12-21-2010, 05:08 PM   #594
phitruong
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Ki is an Eastern term to describe a variety of elements within a primitive world. Its comparison to the Western term humours is (I think) a good comparison. That is not to say that ki does not exist, only that its definition is currently lacking modern science. In the meantime we make ourselves vulnerable to charlatans who abuse this lapse in definition. I defer to those who are better able to define and explain ki to help moderize the concept so we can begin culling out the ficticious employers of ki.
ki isn't fictitious. we asians know exactly what it is. it's the by-product of heavy bean and cabbage intake. i mentioned it many time. you gaijin are very strange. ki isn't some kind of energy, although if you could capture it, it would burn pretty good. how many time do we asian have to tell you folks that ki isn't what you do; it's what you eat. sheesh! my mother complained about my dad ki release all the time, at least once every other hour.

personally, i think we should remove the term "ki" out of aikido. we would only need "aido". now that is something everyone can benefits. it work on most folks. it works on judo, karate, kungfu, mma, wwe, aaa, aarp, and what have you. we would even have the manual of all the right techniques for "aido" - kama sutra (although i still can't figure out some of the positions).

Quote:
In the meantime, my practice is to take ki with a grain of salt, much as I would accept "thingamabob", "dohickey" and "Whazzit" as adequate descriptors. ( I can hear it now... "Use your Thingamabob to knock down your partner." What?...)
don't knock the "thingamabob". that's the secret ingredient of my secret aido technique.
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Old 12-22-2010, 01:10 AM   #595
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
ki isn't fictitious. we asians know exactly what it is. it's the by-product of heavy bean and cabbage intake. i mentioned it many time. you gaijin are very strange. ki isn't some kind of energy, although if you could capture it, it would burn pretty good. how many time do we asian have to tell you folks that ki isn't what you do; it's what you eat. sheesh! my mother complained about my dad ki release all the time, at least once every other hour.

personally, i think we should remove the term "ki" out of aikido. we would only need "aido". now that is something everyone can benefits. it work on most folks. it works on judo, karate, kungfu, mma, wwe, aaa, aarp, and what have you. we would even have the manual of all the right techniques for "aido" - kama sutra (although i still can't figure out some of the positions).

don't knock the "thingamabob". that's the secret ingredient of my secret aido technique.
SSssshh!!! Now you've let the cat out of the bag, I fart so good I levitate on my efforts..........
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Old 12-22-2010, 06:43 AM   #596
Marc Abrams
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
SSssshh!!! Now you've let the cat out of the bag, I fart so good I levitate on my efforts..........
My methane Ki is made powerful by creating the sounds of the Kotodama from hole-down-under

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:21 AM   #597
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
My methane Ki is made powerful by creating the sounds of the Kotodama from hole-down-under

Marc Abrams
That ain't that the black 'ole of Calcutta your refering to is it...?
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Old 12-22-2010, 05:22 PM   #598
ravenest
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Some one else on the thread already posted this (which I didn't know until I just read the link today) so I'll repost it since this thread is so long...

http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikiph...nraisable-body

Ah physics... is there anything you can't explain

Internalizing this so you feel and know what to do (apparently) takes practice but that is true for any other aikido technique. I've never tried it myself... maybe something to try before/after a class.
Interesting article but it doesnt explain how they got her 1 inch of the ground and then couldnt go further (in the case I saw).
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Old 12-22-2010, 05:27 PM   #599
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Michael

You disappoint me, I was waiting for someone brave enough to watch the video to the end to see what else could possibly happen ?? At my age it could be considered a health hazzard

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Sorry for the dissapointment but using the computer at the public library ... do you realise how long it actually takes to watch 8 mins of vis on that ols computer??? But now you have aroused my curiosity ... when I have time ... whenever that will be ... and it better be worth it !
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Old 12-22-2010, 06:06 PM   #600
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
This thread was full of fail from the start and it hasn't improved. I'm out.
Wow! 258 post in the first two years it was here....

342 posts in the past two weeks..

A most enlightning discussion and very diverse opinions, thanks!
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