Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-18-2010, 08:57 PM   #276
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Stumbled on this thread and though I'd echo (one more piece of anecdotal evidence) as a Yoshinkan student, I've been told a couple of times the same thing, trying to specifically catch the business end of strike is not wise.

I have been educated that any part of the striking forearm is much easier to make contact with, and usually if you follow it (slide) down there is a wrist attached to it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2010, 10:06 AM   #277
Mikemac
 
Mikemac's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido World Alliance
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 88
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

I've seen that it is not necessarily impossible to engage a boxer successfully with Aikido. Here's a small example of what moves might be effective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8S...eature=related

______________________________________________

"Hey! You got your kotegaeshi in my peanut butter!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2010, 10:39 AM   #278
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Michael McNamara wrote: View Post
I've seen that it is not necessarily impossible to engage a boxer successfully with Aikido. Here's a small example of what moves might be effective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8S...eature=related
Box first and you'll know how..... develop hand speed, find the appropriate waza....Quite logical to me.....
To be honest when I first trained T/S aikido, I had my doubts, but soon cottoned on to the waza more suitable against boxers and strikers
For fun we do much what you are doing + throw in a bit of newaza from Judo.... Just ups the game a bit.... Like M.M.A. but without the commitment ....
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2010, 11:14 AM   #279
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,282
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Michael McNamara wrote: View Post
I've seen that it is not necessarily impossible to engage a boxer successfully with Aikido. Here's a small example of what moves might be effective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8S...eature=related
That is a good video. I think that the Aikido would be more effective with lots more atemi.

dps
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2010, 11:55 AM   #280
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

I just re-read this entire thread. Besides wishing I had better spelling and grammer, I still really agree with everything I've said. That's a first!

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2010, 12:45 PM   #281
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
That is a good video. I think that the Aikido would be more effective with lots more atemi.

dps
lol serious, a lack of atemi was the only problem you could find with that guys interpretation of Aiki-principles?

Sorry, I'm being mean.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2010, 02:07 PM   #282
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
That is a good video. I think that the Aikido would be more effective with lots more atemi.

dps
Of course Aikido would be lots more "effective" with more use of atemi. That's a total no brainer... But is that the point of your training? Is effectiveness the goal?

Training is about understanding connection on a really fundamental level. All dimensions and possibilities of connection. You want great street Aikido? Sure, any given technique is easier if you have first broken the opponent's ribs, struck him in the throat, finger flicked his eyes, taken out and elbow or knee. In fact, if you really work on your striking, you can develop the one strike knockout and not need any other technique at all. Just as in sword, one cut one death.

Overuse of atemi in training is simply a way to get by with lousy technique. If I can disturb your center by using strikes, I don't have to really understand how to join with you properly. The strikes are a crutch to make up for the fact that one doesn't understand "aiki" very well, if at all.

Now I am not saying that there's anything wrong with atemi waza. It's implicit in everything we do and if I happened to be out in the so-called "real world" and needed to defend myself, there would be mostly atemi waza. But in terms of training emphasis, atemi waza is secondary or even tertiary in importance. The art is the study of connection. Spending ones time focusing on applied technique and atemi waza misses the whole point.

Approaching the art from a purely result oriented standpoint is the wrong way to train, in my opinion. It results in a "he fell down therefore I'm satisfied" approach to the art. A sort of "close enough for government work" attitude.

Aikido is the study of principle. What one seeks is the unattainable; that elusive perfect, effortless, throw, that total calm at the center of the storm. The goal is an understanding of Takeda and O-Sensei's statement that there is no enemy, no opponent. Continuously focusing on fighting simply reinforces the notion of opposition. It is fundamentally a dualistic way of approaching technique. It will never result in the kind of understanding Aikido was, in my opinion, designed to produce.

Now, it is quite clear from reading the material on the forums for many years that a number of folks, some of whom are quite senior and experienced, don't actually care about that. They approach the art from the perspective that it is about self defense, that training should be some sort of preparation for that hypothetical encounter on the street, in the bar, wherever. If technique is "effective" is the main criteria. Ukemi is taught as something oppositional, talk of "resistant" ukemi is the norm.

The result of this kind of training is a strong body, and a strong spirit. It doesn't result in very deep Aikido. It is fairly devoid of the spiritual elements that the Founder spent most of his efforts emphasizing. It's not just foreigners who didn't acre about this fact, even O-Sensei's own deshi were divided into those that really cared about his spiritual vision and those that simply wanted to figure out how to throw people like he did. They didn't understand what he was talking about, didn't really care to, dozed through the lectures, just waiting until the old guy stopped talking so they could get back to technique.

Even though O-Sensei specifically warned his students against becoming trapped in the merely technical, it was far easier to make that ones focus. The idea was that if one simply devoted oneself to hard training, understanding would come of itself.

This is simply not the case. You become what you train. If you train dualistic-ally, me against him (them), that will be your outlook at the end of tour career, no matter how good you have become at throwing folks and torquing the shit out of their joints. If you approach your Aikido with the same fear based mindset that pervades our whole culture these days, then the result is an art that is based on the never ending search for the stronger technique, preparation for increasingly unlikely attacks, fear based vigilance that turns more and more of the people one deals with into potential threats against whom we need to be prepared.

The most important things that we can get from our Aikido training are the things that make or daily lives better. Technique, no matter how strong, no matter how effective, is almost devoid of anything that makes ones life better. Most Aikido practitioners will never, in their entire lives, actually use their Aikido for self defense. This is quite simply a fact.

What are the conflicts we deal with every day? It's POGO, "we have met the enemy and he is us". 90% of the conflicts we deal with on a daily basis can only be effectively dealt with by changing ourselves not by using some un-defeatable technique on some "enemy". Your boss tells you you are layed off... your lover tells you he or she is leaving you... your infant son is having a seizure and you think he is dying... it goes on and on... The issues that arise in our lives every single day and can either be dealt with or make our lives miserable have, for most people, nothing to do with some physical assault from an attacker. Usually the conflicts we deal with are with friends, lovers, co-workers, family members... "
Win / Lose as a way to think about these conflicts is completely inappropriate and does not result in outcomes that will make you more satisfied or happier.

Just as when someone is on his death bed, he never says to himself "I should have put more time and effort into my work", when one is under assault from the kinds of daily conflicts that have to be dealt with in life, one never says to himself "I should have used more atemi in my waza" or "I shouldn't have neglected my nikkyo... if only I had that killer nikkyo my teacher had." These things are largely irrelevant in ones life. For most of life's daily issues, the power and effectiveness of your technique is largely so unimportant as to make one wonder why one spent so much time worrying about the issue when it seems to be so inapplicable for the vast majority of the situations of ones life that really matter.

Technique and the understanding of the principles underlying technique isn't the goal... it is the means to another end which is personal transformation. Too often people transform the art to fit who they are rather than transform themselves using the art. Violent, fear based individuals make their practice violent and fear based. Weak individuals suck the life out of the practice and end up with weak Aikido. The whole point of the art is to look at how one needs to change and adjust the practice accordingly. Strong people need to learn to let go of that strength and relax, weak people need to become strong, aggressive people need to learn to receive, passive people need to be more aggressive.

If the practice is really about personal transformation, then every day one uses the technical practice to work on precisely what is most difficult for that individual. The one who is scared of weapons work should work twice as hard on his or her weapons technique. The one who is scared of being struck needs to do lots of technique from striking attack. The one who is afraid of striking someone else needs to spend a lot of time hitting things. Find the aspect of Aikido that one enjoys the least and work on it the hardest. That's how one uses Aikido training to change oneself. No one in the real world actually cares how good you are at throwing someone. What a singularly irrelevant skill. But they do acre what kind of person you are. People need to be clear about what they need for their lives to be better and structure their training to produce that result. Usually it involves doing just the opposite of what they like to do.

Of course more atemi makes technique work better. But I can assure you that use of atemi in solving the conflicts of daily life will not only not work but you'll end up in the big house for trying. People really need to look at what this art is about and why they do it. Is it merely about what works or is it a search for understanding, truth, some sort of transcendent view of the world that will enhance your own life and the lives of those with whom you come into contact? I'm voting for the latter...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2010, 04:47 PM   #283
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 978
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Stumbled on this thread and though I'd echo (one more piece of anecdotal evidence) as a Yoshinkan student, I've been told a couple of times the same thing, trying to specifically catch the business end of strike is not wise.
That depends on what you mean by "catch." In Jun Fan I learned a "catch and release" boxing drill, where both partners have the same lead (ai hanmi) just outside uke's reach and nage (for lack of a better term) "catches" the jab with his rear hand. It's not so much a catch as a paw. One response is to jab at the same time as you catch, and in this version has a focus mitt on the other hand. Nage can also "catch" and then follow the hand back to home with his own cross.

The catch also appears pretty much the same way in the Filipino boxing portion of LaCoste Inosanto Kali. The rationale is that the jabber is trying to probe nage's defenses, provoke a reaction and formulate a strategy based on that. Of course, catching is also a response that can be analyzed, but it's more low key than a dramatic lead hand block.

The point is a "catch" or something like that is perfectly possible.

As for applying Aikido locks against the full range -- jabs, crosses, hooks, and uppercuts -- I think that is possible. I've had a couple of things pop out in sparring, mostly off a jab cross, so that tells me the distance is right. Remember, all this repition of all these locks makes our bodies and brains familar with those positions and we can go for the instant we feel something useful. How easy it is to pull of it another matter. But not impossible.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2010, 03:18 AM   #284
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,282
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Of course Aikido would be lots more "effective" with more use of atemi. That's a total no brainer... But is that the point of your training? Is effectiveness the goal?...
Yes.

Effectiveness is the key to obtaining the other aspects of Aikido.



From the biographical book "The Founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba", written by Ueshiba Kisshomaru (translated and reprinted in Aiki News #62). Excerpt originally written by Okamoto Ippei and published in the November 1933 issue of Budo magazine.

"[Ueshiba] started with easy techniques using two of his students. Even for an untrained eye, it was clear that he moved very softly... However, in the meantime his students attack him with all their might and still tumble down in a shower of attacks (atemi) to their vital points.
In short his art reaches a conclusion before ordinary judo even starts its work. [The Founder] said, 'My technique is 70 percent atemi (striking) and 30 percent nage (throwing).' "

From the book "Budo Training in Aikido" (aka: Budo Renshu/ Aikijujutsu Ogi), written by Ueshiba Morihei - published in 1933. Translation by Larry E. Bieri and Seiko Mabuchi (Minato Research):

pg. 26 - "True Budo is practiced not only to destroy an enemy, it must also make him, or his own will, gladly lose his spirit (seishin) to oppose you."

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/newrep...wreply&p=63425

(bold print by me, dps)

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
This discussion could be resolved fairly easily. Take out the atemi and practice with a partner who has no intention of cooperating.

Saotome Sensei, who had fifteen years training under the Founder, stated that "if you know that your partner will not strike you, then all techniques are stoppable".

All techniques need to be appropriate to the specific energy given by an attacker. If the attacker knows there can be no atemi, he can shift his energy to make the aplication of any technique impossible. Normally, if the nage has moved correctly and is in the proper position doing this would create a suki and leave the attacker "open". But with no atemi the question would be: open for what?

I remember, one of the last times we had this discussion, Goldsbury Sensei corrected those that had maintained that Aikido was 70% or 90% atemi by pointing out that it was, in reality, 100% atemi.

Saotome Sensei taught us that "every throw you do is a strike which you are choosing not to do." In other words, in Aikido practice, atemi can be implicit rather than explicit. What forces an opponent to keep his energy dispersed so that you can apply a given technique is the possibility at any instant that nage can throw an atemi.

If you make some artifial "rule" that there is no atemi then Aikido is simply a dance like contact improvisation (also where there is no atemi). There would simply be no possibility of application of technique against a trained attacker. If you don't believe this then try it out. This isn't mysticism requiring many years of esoteric training. Just get an experienced partner, preferably one who doesn't share your own predisposition, and try it out.

As for some teacher or other banning atemi... I have hundreds of hours of video in my collection. I have video of Koichi Tohei using atemi, Kisshomaru Ueshiba using atemi, O-Sensei using atemi. Perhaps Tohei Sensei decided, for his own reasons to deemphasize the use of atemi in Aikido practice, but it was there in his technique.

Just look at the people whom O-sensei trained directly... certainly no one from the pre-war era maintained there was no atemi in Aikido. Of the post war era teachers some of the most notable would be teachers like Saito Sensei, Nishio sensei, Hikistuchi Sensei, Saotome Sensei, Chiba Sensei, etc. For every one of these men, atemi is an integral part of their Aikido technique. Is anyone out there maintaining that they all got it wrong? Somehow the whole bunch of them failed to understand the Founder and that a particular individual who may have chosen a different path was the only one who did get it right? I am sorry, I just can't buy it. But once again I say, don't take their word for it. Just practice with ukes who will throw combination attacks, who will resist your throws, who will tighten up when you try to apply a lock, or will slip any attept to grab them... then see.
Aikido is 90 per cent atemi and the atemi is done at or before
the instant of contact to unbalance your opponent.

90 per cent of Aikido is done at or before the instant of contact.

To paraphrase a sensei of mine, " They should of called it (Aikido) Kuzushi.

dps

Last edited by dps : 12-20-2010 at 03:32 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2010, 05:28 AM   #285
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Yes.

Effectiveness is the key to obtaining the other aspects of Aikido.

From the biographical book "The Founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba", written by Ueshiba Kisshomaru (translated and reprinted in Aiki News #62). Excerpt originally written by Okamoto Ippei and published in the November 1933 issue of Budo magazine.

"[Ueshiba] started with easy techniques using two of his students. Even for an untrained eye, it was clear that he moved very softly... However, in the meantime his students attack him with all their might and still tumble down in a shower of attacks (atemi) to their vital points.
In short his art reaches a conclusion before ordinary judo even starts its work. [The Founder] said, 'My technique is 70 percent atemi (striking) and 30 percent nage (throwing).' "

From the book "Budo Training in Aikido" (aka: Budo Renshu/ Aikijujutsu Ogi), written by Ueshiba Morihei - published in 1933. Translation by Larry E. Bieri and Seiko Mabuchi (Minato Research):

pg. 26 - "True Budo is practiced not only to destroy an enemy, it must also make him, or his own will, gladly lose his spirit (seishin) to oppose you."

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/newrep...wreply&p=63425

(bold print by me, dps)

Aikido is 90 per cent atemi and the atemi is done at or before
the instant of contact to unbalance your opponent.

90 per cent of Aikido is done at or before the instant of contact.

To paraphrase a sensei of mine, " They should of called it (Aikido) Kuzushi.

dps
Everyone who wishes to quote O-Sensei to express the idea that he did believe that martial effectiveness was central to the practice, always takes quites from his writing from the 30's. At that point he was doing either Daito Ryu or was just starting to call what he did Aiki Budo. It wasn't even called Aikido until 1942.

Ueshiba Aikido is really a post war art and if you read his writings from that period they evince very little concern over technical matters and especially over winning and losing. The deshi, who were not as interested in the spiritual side as the Founder used to get chewed out for sneaking out and getting in fights. The Founder specifically stated that Aikido was not for fighting.

If people really want to worry about fighting per se, then one of the styles started by the pre-war deshi, like Shioda Sensei, would make a lot of sense. Frankly, Mochizuki Sensei was doing mixed martial arts before there was a name for it.

Anyway, O-Sensei's ideas about things evolved. He died in 1969. There were 24 years of Aikido development and teaching which all the "it's about fighting" boys always ignore because it all sounded too la la.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2010, 09:56 PM   #286
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post

They approach the art from the perspective that it is about self defense, that training should be some sort of preparation for that hypothetical encounter on the street, in the bar, wherever. If technique is "effective" is the main criteria. Ukemi is taught as something oppositional, talk of "resistant" ukemi is the norm.
Seriously, where ever that legendary bar is, I bet it is on that place known infamously as "the street" And I bet it is right next to that dark alley I always hear about!!!
I never got it, if that place sucks so bad, why does everyone always talk about how they like to hang out there?

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 05:18 AM   #287
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Everyone who wishes to quote O-Sensei to express the idea that he did believe that martial effectiveness was central to the practice, always takes quites from his writing from the 30's. At that point he was doing either Daito Ryu or was just starting to call what he did Aiki Budo. It wasn't even called Aikido until 1942.
And we do know that the change of the name to Aikido had nothing to do with O Sensei and a wild whole lot with bureaucracy.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Ueshiba Aikido is really a post war art and if you read his writings from that period they evince very little concern over technical matters and especially over winning and losing.
And then we have the Iwama Ryu, with its proverbial "little concern" over technical matters and that winning and losing thing.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
If people really want to worry about fighting per se, then one of the styles started by the pre-war deshi, like Shioda Sensei, would make a lot of sense. Frankly, Mochizuki Sensei was doing mixed martial arts before there was a name for it.
Now THAT is Aikido. Mochizuki was doing Aikido as in he was using Aiki principals when executing all of his wide technical repertory.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Anyway, O-Sensei's ideas about things evolved. He died in 1969. There were 24 years of Aikido development and teaching which all the "it's about fighting" boys always ignore because it all sounded too la la.
Honestly, had you ever trained in the Yoseikan or the Yoshinkan or the Shodokan you'll find it amazing how similar they are to Iwama Ryu. And there are 24 years of Aikido "development" in the middle.

I do not buy that "O Sensei's Aikido evolved technically over the years" thing. Spiritually? Philosophically? Maybe. Technically? No, me doesn't buy that.

If it's not about fighting, or winning, or prevailing... do you still call it "martial"?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 05:19 AM   #288
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Seriously, where ever that legendary bar is, I bet it is on that place known infamously as "the street" And I bet it is right next to that dark alley I always hear about!!!
I never got it, if that place sucks so bad, why does everyone always talk about how they like to hang out there?
Good luck out there. Really hope that place doesn't exist at all for your own health. Hey, it's great to keep on living in a dream, isn't it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 05:42 AM   #289
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
Location: Freiburg
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 316
Germany
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Seriously, where ever that legendary bar is, I bet it is on that place known infamously as "the street" And I bet it is right next to that dark alley I always hear about!!!
I never got it, if that place sucks so bad, why does everyone always talk about how they like to hang out there?
Well, a very few people need to worry about places like that because of the life they live or the profession they have. I respect them a lot for chosing aikido as their martial art.

Many, however, prefer to live in a paranoid fear-driven fantasy for reasons that they dont have the courage to confront.

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 12-22-2010 at 05:43 AM. Reason: precision
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 06:45 AM   #290
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote:
A friend of mine boxed for the army. I've been studying Aikido for about a month and so I asked him to friendly-spar for a couple of minutes to show him what I'd learned.

Basically, I got owned. I never came close to blending with his jabs. I finally had to tell him to slow his attacks down, so that I could demonstrate Ikkyo and Sankyo.

His comments:
1. It's not possible to catch/blend with his punches.
2. He's going to throw a combination, so even if I try I'm probably going to get hit (this, too, he demonstrated with a gentle right to my floating rib when I tried for a sankyo).
3. He would never over-extend himself with a "clean attack" like we use in class.
4. All this has been settled with the Gracies in Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Back in the '70's they invited people from all different schools to come down and fight it out. What "came out in the wash" was these three positions, and most effective related styles:
a. STANDING SEPARATE: boxing; kick-boxing
b. GRAPPLING: Muy-Thai; Wrestling
c. GROUND: Wrestling; Ju Jitsu

In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.
Let's end this once and for all.

The techniques you see in aikido are related to the use of weapons.

MMA is looking at small sliver of all combat. It is highly refined for what is does.

But for a moment imagine the poor boxer who says, as the life bleeds out of his body, "I got pwned by the kyudo guy." Believe me there is a reason why boxers don't fight archers.

Face a boxer, kick-boxer, muay thai, wrestler, or bjj'er with a sword and witness the difference. All those styles are completely ineffective against a sword. All of their attacks and defences and strategies will result in death for the practitioner against a sword. Do you think samurai were stupid? They fought and killed and died for a living.

Reflect on the context of weapons, multiple opponents, and surprise and aikido will cease to be a mystery... Don't be disappointed as mastering it still will be!

If you knew that someone was going to use a weapon on you, or that they always carried weapons, what might your method of attack look like? What might your strategies be?

If you were a man who always carried weapons and favored using them, what might you want out of a martial art? What situations would you prepare for?

Any aikidoist who desires to understand the practical application of the techniques of their art, must consider these questions.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 10:21 AM   #291
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
I do not buy that "O Sensei's Aikido evolved technically over the years" thing. Spiritually? Philosophically? Maybe. Technically? No, me doesn't buy that.
So you're saying that one of the greatest martial artists of his generation stagnated for more than two decades? I don't buy *that*.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 10:38 AM   #292
Don Nordin
Dojo: Aikibudokan Houston TX
Location: Houston Texas
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 41
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

I find these discussions interesting. Its not just Aikido vs Boxing it's all the Aikido vs take your pick. I remember when I first showed up at our Dojo and Sensei was discussing the teaching method, techniques and principles. He basically stated that the priniciple are the foundations of all Aikido. At the time I had no idea what he was really saying. Now I think I understand what he was referring to. Principles are not techniques. The principles of Aikido are fairly simple, keep proper distance, stay ballanced, focus on everything going on around but nothing in particular, avoid conflict, ect..
Now if you apply that to conflict with a boxer you may have a favorable outcome to the conflict. If you are able to keep your distance, the boxer will be forced to change his style and may become off balanced as a result, which could give you an opportunity. Also by maintaining proper distance the punches will be less effective.
Looking at the video it does not appear to me that the "boxer" is really throwing committed punches. I can speak from experience here, you will feel every knuckle of the boxer if you get hit hard, even with the glove on. In the video the Aikido player appears to be willing to take a hit to gain an opening. A good number of boxers can hit your forearm hard enough to break it. So that stategy may not work out well with a hard hitter.
Personally speaking I feel like the relatively little Aikido training I have had (18 months) has taught me to keep the principles in mind first.Maybe after several more years effective techniques for any situation will flow from adherence to the principles. In the mean time I try not to get hit.

Last edited by Don Nordin : 12-22-2010 at 10:41 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 02:19 PM   #293
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
Well, a very few people need to worry about places like that because of the life they live or the profession they have. I respect them a lot for chosing aikido as their martial art.

Many, however, prefer to live in a paranoid fear-driven fantasy for reasons that they dont have the courage to confront.
Here's how I view things:

I've had a hard life. I've seen some crap in my life. I've lived in places where the danger of wild dogs eating your new born baby when you aren't looking is a real threat.
There are bad things in this world, monsters are real, and the dark is a scary place...but it'll be okay. It isn't right, it isn't fair for the world to be so dangerous, but I've reconcile it.

Bad stuff happens. No mater how long you train, how much you prepare, the fact of this world is that "The Good Lord taketh " sometime. There are dangers beyond our control. I think once it is reconciled you can move on and look forward to the fact that "The Good Lord giveth", without looking over your shoulder.

So, I refuse to train for imaginary fights that may or may not happen. I once was told "The true art behind ukemi is the ability to know when you are bested by your nage, when your ballance is completely gone, and surrender to the overwhelming truth that is gravity."
Surrendering to what is beyond your control is a choice for a life of purpose. I will then choose to train until I learn how not to be afraid, until I clearly surrender to my uke's energy, or surrender to the gravity of a throw, without the fear that comes with not being in control.
People always want to be in control of every aspect of their lives, I think that where much of the "on the street" and "the dark alley" talk comes from.

The good or the bad; there is much I have a say in, for which I'm thankful. But there is much I will never have any say in, and I've learned that I wouldn't have it any other way.

Like I've mentioned, I've seen some stuff in my life that aren't okay, and will never be okay, but one day I saw something so tremendous I refused to live another day in fear of all these things I was helpless to prevent.

Last edited by RED : 12-22-2010 at 02:21 PM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 03:57 PM   #294
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post

I do not buy that "O Sensei's Aikido evolved technically over the years" thing. Spiritually? Philosophically? Maybe. Technically? No, me doesn't buy that.

If it's not about fighting, or winning, or prevailing... do you still call it "martial"?
Technique is the earliest stage of ones development. In the "aiki" arts this stage may take quite a bit longer than in something like mixed martial arts because the training requires so much reprogramming of what the mind / body starts out with as the default setting. It takes quite a bit of work to reprogram all those reactions.

But eventually, great martial arts are really mental. These arts developed in Japan amongst a class of folks all of whom were warriors. In other words, everyone knew technique. The guy you expected to fight had been training since childhood, just like you.

Each school had it's so-called secrets, which against someone not of the highest caliber, might give the crucial advantage over his opponent. But "tricks" have never been seen as effective against someone at the top level. There is something going on which is far more fundamental than that. This is what changes over time... and certainly can result in someone getting better and better as he gets older.

There's nothing wrong with having great technique. We keep working on that our whole lives. But one finds that, as ones understanding increases, the rules change. Things you were told NEVER to do become ok because you are operating on another level. Look at Mohammed Ali, dancing around with his hands down at his sides. If you did that at a lesser level, you'd get knocked out so fast you wouldn't see it coming. His work had progressed to the point at which it was more mental than physical. His ability to feel what his opponent was going to do, even as he had the thought of doing it, was fantastic. So he could violate the basic rules because he had moved to another level. But it wasn't about physical technique at that point. Everyone he fought was a master of the same techniques... jab, cross, hook, uppercut, etc But it didn't matter because no one could touch him... not when he was in his prime.

O-Sensei focused on connection. His Aikido was largely focused on integration. The whole internal power discussion directly relates to his spiritual outlook and how he saw its relation to Aikido technique. O-Sensei's primary focus was on himself. How does one bring the forces one is using into balance? What flows outwards must be in balance with what flows in. As in the Chinese arts, this is multi-dimensional... up-down, forward-back, right-left, all in balance. The accomplishment of this over time changes ones psychology. It has to because there is no separation between mind-body-spirit.

I have read nothing that would indicate that O-Sensei saw any separation whatever between what for him was technical and what was spiritual. I realize that these concepts are far above our pay grade, at least for most of us, but I think it is important to try to understand, at least what was meant. This is no different if you compare how O-Sensei talked about what he was doing or if you listen to how the senior teachers of Systema talk about they do.

Both Systems have a spiritual foundation. For O-Sensei it was an arcane mix of Shinto based ideas coupled with a sprinkling of influences from other spiritual systems. For the Systema folks like Michael Ryabko or Vladimir Vasiliev, it is Orthodox Christianity. The founders of both martial systems maintained that it is not possible to get to the highest level relying on ones own power. Both O-Sensei and Ryabko talked about opening up to the "divine" and drawing power from that source.

I do not think that it is an accident that both systems, although Aikido has been less successful in this regard in my opinion, focus on relaxation and non-resistance. When the training is what it should be, the focus is on removing all tension, mental and physical. This inevitably results in a psychological dimension of practice because the majority of our tension is directly related to our mind and how we think about what we are doing.

The internal power training which has been discussed at length is about focusing on oneself and bringing the various components of the mind-body into an integrated state. It is largely a solo endeavor, although I really appreciate the way Dan H teaches many of the exercises under load with a partner. Anyway, you are not trying to do anything to anyone else. You are integrating yourself.

The more relaxed you get, the more you release your tension and integrate the various components of your body, the more sensitive you are to outside forces. I am not saying that the spiritual side of this comes automatically, I don't think it does. Takeda, Sagawa, and Ueshiba all were masters of the "aiki" skills but only O-Sensei had the spiritual bent that led him to change the art from one devoted to fighting to one that allowed one to manifest the principles that govern the universe in ones body via technique. It's not that these principles weren't in operation in Daito Ryu, they certainly were. In fact these principles operate in all places at all times, in all arts because they are so-called "universal" principles.

But O-Sensei changed the form of the practice to focus on these principles and the trans-formative effect on the individual of integrating oneself with these principles. It was meant to be a spiritual practice.

So, O-Sensei kept developing throughout his entire life. At the very end of his life he stated that he was just beginning to understand Ikkyo. You can't say that he kept changing on a spiritual level but didn't develop technically... there is no separation.

Anyway, you become what you train. If you take the idea that you can just focus on technique and spiritual thing will come later, you will inevitably hit a dead end in which your technique stops progressing because the limiting factor will no longer be something physical. You can see this in innumerable high level practitioners. Their stuff hasn't changed in years and years because the focus of their training was outward on technique and how one could apply it to defeating an opponent outside oneself. A inward focus, both technical and spiritual, gives one the freedom to keep developing technically indefinitely. That's why O-Sensei's Aikido at the end of his life didn't look like what he did in his fifties and didn't look like what most of his students ended up doing. He kept changing, they didn't. They never understood his spiritual ideas and how they related to the practice and chose instead to master the form but not the content.

Of course, there is a continuum I am talking about. Some teachers freed themselves more from technical restraints of form and pursued some notion of a spiritual underpinning and others seemed almost entirely uninterested. But it is clear to me that O-Sensei's Aikido was meant to reveal the truth of non-separation, of the essential interconnectedness of things. Technique was a tool for that study. If ones interest is in fighting, all ones training starts with the fundamentally dualistic mindset that virtually precludes understanding this fact that way the Fonder understood it.

Frankly, if ones only interest is in fighting and applied technique. I'd quit Aikido and go train with Dan H. Skip the Aiki-Do and just pursue the "aiki". He'll get you to fighting effectiveness much quicker and you won't be saddled with all sorts of Aikido techniques which were created for an entirely different purpose altogether.

I keep repeating these things over and over because this is what I was taught by my own teacher and I think it is important that someone be "fighting the good fight" so to speak. Rather than shrink this amazing art of Aikido to fit ones "little mind" of all of our psychological issues why not try to change ourselves for the better and tap into a "Big Mind" understanding of the art? Of course that is far more difficult. Letting go is the hardest thing we can ask of ourselves. But don't try to make Aikido into just another system that emanates from the fearful mind, that will never change anything for the better because it simply buys into the essentially fearful, oppositional mindset that we all have. Technique alone is not the answer. There are folks out there who could tear you apart with their Aikido whom I wouldn't for one second wish to emulate on a personal level. I hope people will look for something greater than that.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 04:18 PM   #295
Anthony Loeppert
Dojo: Aikido of Del Mar
Location: San Diego, CA
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 155
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I think once it is reconciled you can move on and look forward to the fact that "The Good Lord giveth", without looking over your shoulder.

So, I refuse to train for imaginary fights that may or may not happen.
So you swap training for imaginary (I'd use the word hypothetical) fights for believing in imaginary beings (the Lord - good or otherwise)...

I get your point (I think) that paranoia isn't always the best motivator or way to occupy your time but as the boy scouts say, "be prepared". Plus I think "imaginary fight(ing)" is basically what goes on in dojo's so if you don't do that, but you do practice aikido, what is it that do you? It is a genuine question - no snarkiness.

Last edited by Anthony Loeppert : 12-22-2010 at 04:31 PM. Reason: clarification
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 05:26 PM   #296
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
So you're saying that one of the greatest martial artists of his generation stagnated for more than two decades? I don't buy *that*.

Katherine
No. He did not. I just say that prewar exponents' techniques and Iwama Ryu's techniques are very similar. And all of them very different from all that's in the middle (chronologically speaking).

I don't buy that those in the middle are/were doing what O Sensei taught them. What was that about nobody trying to do O Sensei's Aikido?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 05:55 PM   #297
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Technique is the earliest stage of ones development. In the "aiki" arts this stage may take quite a bit longer than in something like mixed martial arts because the training requires so much reprogramming of what the mind / body starts out with as the default setting. It takes quite a bit of work to reprogram all those reactions.
Means you need to learn technique by heart before moving on. Means effectiveness and winning and not losing.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
There's nothing wrong with having great technique. We keep working on that our whole lives. But one finds that, as ones understanding increases, the rules change. Things you were told NEVER to do become ok because you are operating on another level. Look at Mohammed Ali, dancing around with his hands down at his sides. If you did that at a lesser level, you'd get knocked out so fast you wouldn't see it coming. His work had progressed to the point at which it was more mental than physical. His ability to feel what his opponent was going to do, even as he had the thought of doing it, was fantastic. So he could violate the basic rules because he had moved to another level. But it wasn't about physical technique at that point. Everyone he fought was a master of the same techniques... jab, cross, hook, uppercut, etc But it didn't matter because no one could touch him... not when he was in his prime.
You are making my point. You REACH that level, not BEGIN at that level. Besides, are you saying that Cassius Clay was not interested in winning and not losing or effectiveness for that case?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
O-Sensei focused on connection. His Aikido was largely focused on integration.
From which he could DEFEAT all of those guys.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
The whole internal power discussion directly relates to his spiritual outlook and how he saw its relation to Aikido technique. O-Sensei's primary focus was on himself. How does one bring the forces one is using into balance? What flows outwards must be in balance with what flows in. As in the Chinese arts, this is multi-dimensional... up-down, forward-back, right-left, all in balance. The accomplishment of this over time changes ones psychology. It has to because there is no separation between mind-body-spirit.
That's great. That's what makes Aikido great. That's what made him never losing to an opponent.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I do not think that it is an accident that both systems, although Aikido has been less successful in this regard in my opinion, focus on relaxation and non-resistance. When the training is what it should be, the focus is on removing all tension, mental and physical. This inevitably results in a psychological dimension of practice because the majority of our tension is directly related to our mind and how we think about what we are doing.
And that leads to success and prevalence.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
The internal power training which has been discussed at length is about focusing on oneself and bringing the various components of the mind-body into an integrated state. It is largely a solo endeavor, although I really appreciate the way Dan H teaches many of the exercises under load with a partner. Anyway, you are not trying to do anything to anyone else. You are integrating yourself.
For fighting effectiveness.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
The more relaxed you get, the more you release your tension and integrate the various components of your body, the more sensitive you are to outside forces. I am not saying that the spiritual side of this comes automatically, I don't think it does. Takeda, Sagawa, and Ueshiba all were masters of the "aiki" skills but only O-Sensei had the spiritual bent that led him to change the art from one devoted to fighting to one that allowed one to manifest the principles that govern the universe in ones body via technique. It's not that these principles weren't in operation in Daito Ryu, they certainly were. In fact these principles operate in all places at all times, in all arts because they are so-called "universal" principles.
That's not an argument against my opinion. He still could defeat you and me .

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
But O-Sensei changed the form of the practice to focus on these principles and the trans-formative effect on the individual of integrating oneself with these principles. It was meant to be a spiritual practice.
ONCE he became proficient technically speaking.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
So, O-Sensei kept developing throughout his entire life. At the very end of his life he stated that he was just beginning to understand Ikkyo. You can't say that he kept changing on a spiritual level but didn't develop technically... there is no separation.
There is for me and I'm not O Sensei. Do you really believe that it took him 50 years of rigorous training to begin to even understand Ikkyo? Was he that bad?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Anyway, you become what you train. If you take the idea that you can just focus on technique and spiritual thing will come later, you will inevitably hit a dead end in which your technique stops progressing because the limiting factor will no longer be something physical. You can see this in innumerable high level practitioners. Their stuff hasn't changed in years and years because the focus of their training was outward on technique and how one could apply it to defeating an opponent outside oneself. A inward focus, both technical and spiritual, gives one the freedom to keep developing technically indefinitely. That's why O-Sensei's Aikido at the end of his life didn't look like what he did in his fifties and didn't look like what most of his students ended up doing. He kept changing, they didn't. They never understood his spiritual ideas and how they related to the practice and chose instead to master the form but not the content.
I cannot agree with you here too. So I need the spiritual to keep progressing in my technique? Does it work too for Chess or Civil Engineering? Sorry but no. No.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Of course, there is a continuum I am talking about. Some teachers freed themselves more from technical restraints of form and pursued some notion of a spiritual underpinning and others seemed almost entirely uninterested. But it is clear to me that O-Sensei's Aikido was meant to reveal the truth of non-separation, of the essential interconnectedness of things. Technique was a tool for that study. If ones interest is in fighting, all ones training starts with the fundamentally dualistic mindset that virtually precludes understanding this fact that way the Fonder understood it.
You mean then than prewar students did not understand a thing. Frankly, what's the different between those prewar deshi's techniques, the pictures of Noma Dojo, and Iwama Ryu's? Where is that technical progress?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Frankly, if ones only interest is in fighting and applied technique. I'd quit Aikido and go train with Dan H. Skip the Aiki-Do and just pursue the "aiki". He'll get you to fighting effectiveness much quicker and you won't be saddled with all sorts of Aikido techniques which were created for an entirely different purpose altogether.
For what purpose were Aikido techniques created? Were they created by O Sensei? Or they predate him by hundreds of years? Were they not created to defeat and prevail in armed and unarmed confrontation?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I keep repeating these things over and over because this is what I was taught by my own teacher and I think it is important that someone be "fighting the good fight" so to speak. Rather than shrink this amazing art of Aikido to fit ones "little mind" of all of our psychological issues why not try to change ourselves for the better and tap into a "Big Mind" understanding of the art? Of course that is far more difficult. Letting go is the hardest thing we can ask of ourselves. But don't try to make Aikido into just another system that emanates from the fearful mind, that will never change anything for the better because it simply buys into the essentially fearful, oppositional mindset that we all have. Technique alone is not the answer. There are folks out there who could tear you apart with their Aikido whom I wouldn't for one second wish to emulate on a personal level. I hope people will look for something greater than that.
This part is just preaching to the core. I believe, understand and share with you that last part. But that's not about Aikido. It's about being a better human being. Or are this kind of Aikidoka morally superior to Judoka, Kempoists, F-1 racers or Architects? That part is all about ego.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 05:57 PM   #298
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
So you swap training for imaginary (I'd use the word hypothetical) fights for believing in imaginary beings (the Lord - good or otherwise)...

I get your point (I think) that paranoia isn't always the best motivator or way to occupy your time but as the boy scouts say, "be prepared". Plus I think "imaginary fight(ing)" is basically what goes on in dojo's so if you don't do that, but you do practice aikido, what is it that do you? It is a genuine question - no snarkiness.
She is "connecting". I believe that's what Ki no Michi is about instead of Aikido?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 06:31 PM   #299
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
She is "connecting". I believe that's what Ki no Michi is about instead of Aikido?
I wasn't referring to the concept of connection in my post. I wasn't referring to technique or waza. I made a statement about training mind-sets, and only meant to voice my personal mentality towards approaching martiality. I did not mean to suggest anything about my opinion of technique or waza, sorry if it seemed implied. I believe in connection in training,and engaging your attacker's center, but was not referring to it this time.
I believe Ledyard Sensei was the one that was talking about "connection". I guess I'll take it as a compliment to be confused with an Aikidoka with his ranking. lol

Last edited by RED : 12-22-2010 at 06:41 PM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 12:08 AM   #300
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
No. He did not. I just say that prewar exponents' techniques and Iwama Ryu's techniques are very similar. And all of them very different from all that's in the middle (chronologically speaking).
How many of those people have you actually trained with? Video is pretty misleading -- two aikidoka can look the same but not feel the same. I certainly wouldn't want to make blanket statements about any of the uchi deshi (or any senior aikidoka) without actually having trained with them.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
defending against a boxer Bernie V General 132 08-03-2012 02:04 PM
Sport is the new Budo Aiki Liu General 95 02-19-2007 07:33 AM
Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style? Pdella General 49 08-05-2005 05:45 PM
aikido aggainst a boxer solidsteven General 47 11-27-2003 12:05 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:15 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate