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Old 12-16-2010, 03:18 AM   #26
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Possible Copyright Violation?

I am still uncertain where these extracts were taken from. At the beginning it is stated that they were from 'O Sensei's memoirs in the Aikido magazine and other places.' It is not clear, at least to me, that the 'Aikido magazine' is Aiki News, or that the translations were made by Stan Pranin. There have been several magazines or broadsheets entitled Aikido. Nor is it clear that it is the translator who was happy for the document to be disseminated. It is signed by Richard Moon, who is the instructor at Aikido of Marin, a dojo affiliated to Robert Nadeau Shihan.

So it is not so much a matter of Internet policing, as of giving credit where credit is due. Morihei Ueshiba is doubly tough to translate: he lived long enough ago for his Japanese style to be considered unusual, even strange, nowadays; and the content assumes a specialized knowledge of Omoto beliefs and phraseology. I, for one, always like to know the source, so that I can go back to the original and read it. Even Kisshomaru Ueshiba made mistakes when he transcribed quotations from Takemusu Aiki--and the mistakes were duly translated, too.

Best wishes to all,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:05 AM   #27
Michael Varin
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Re: Possible Copyright Violation?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
I read the conspiracy theory site your suggested and just found it another rationalization/argument for wanting something for free.
Wow. You are a fast reader, Lynn. The whole 282 page book in 7 hours in one morning... I'm jealous.

But I seriously question your characterization of the authors as conspiracy theorists. They are both professors of economics at top 25 universities. And while that doesn't make them gods, or even right, it's irresponsible to suggest that their position is merely "another rationalization/argument for wanting something for free."

At least we know where you are coming from.

Regarding Stan Pranin:

I consider Stan to be the preeminent historian of aikido and related arts, and have held him in this esteem for over 10 years. I have bought numerous products from him and I'm sure I will buy more in the future. But none of that has anything to do with my viewpoint on copyright law.

As far as Stan's financial situation, I seriously doubt anyone is making a fortune off of aikido related products. It's a pretty small niche. Many of us wish our chosen professions were more profitable, and I encourage Stan and others to discover ways to maximize their profitability. And if anyone is really worried about him or his ability to complete his projects, I don't think anything is stopping you from donating money to the cause.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 12-16-2010, 06:36 AM   #28
danj
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Re: Possible Copyright Violation?

Google takes copyright violations pretty seriously and it looks like they will delist the infringing sites (which effectively takes them out of commission) http://www.google.com/dmca.html. There is a process to be followed thats not a casual undertaking. Something I always meant to undertake if there was space in my life for that sort of thing. I imagine for professionals its probably serious enough to contemplate doing so.

And far from the halls of inspirational texts I have seen some of my own aiki material popup around the place, (in one case complete with the permission I obtained from the publisher to republish LOL), polite emails are almost always ignored and this is within the aikido community too.

Some of them don't even have the good grace to copy the images but hijack my servers band width instead (easily fixed by replacing said images with a notice stating whats going on for the reader)

Going a bit further off topic I've started using a creative commons licence as some measure of protection. http://creativecommons.org/ Mostly this is not because what i might write is going to make a buck but because google is increasingly taking a dim view of duplicated material on the web and might penalise my website

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Old 12-16-2010, 07:32 AM   #29
Marc Abrams
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Re: Possible Copyright Violation?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Wow. You are a fast reader, Lynn. The whole 282 page book in 7 hours in one morning... I'm jealous.

But I seriously question your characterization of the authors as conspiracy theorists. They are both professors of economics at top 25 universities. And while that doesn't make them gods, or even right, it's irresponsible to suggest that their position is merely "another rationalization/argument for wanting something for free."

At least we know where you are coming from.

Regarding Stan Pranin:

I consider Stan to be the preeminent historian of aikido and related arts, and have held him in this esteem for over 10 years. I have bought numerous products from him and I'm sure I will buy more in the future. But none of that has anything to do with my viewpoint on copyright law.

As far as Stan's financial situation, I seriously doubt anyone is making a fortune off of aikido related products. It's a pretty small niche. Many of us wish our chosen professions were more profitable, and I encourage Stan and others to discover ways to maximize their profitability. And if anyone is really worried about him or his ability to complete his projects, I don't think anything is stopping you from donating money to the cause.
Mike:

Place yourself in Stanley or Ellis's shoes for a minute. No, better yet, instead of accepting a salary for any work that you have done, forgo it for the betterment of society. The issues of censorship, free speech, etc. are really nice to discuss in theoretical/hypothetical realms. When the income that you derive from the products of your work is what determines if you can afford the roof over your head, put food on your table, pay for your child's education,etc., it takes on a whole other light.

Peter is correct in that proper attribution is an important start. Ellis is correct in that using someone's hard earned work products without permission or even some basic compensation is simply wrong. A person has a right to provide the work product to the public at no cost and with no concern about ownership of that work product. Copyrighted works should be respected by all of us and appropriately compensated.

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:34 AM   #30
MM
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Re: Possible Copyright Violation?

The page 3 section has the correct reference. It's from Aiki News Issue 90 (winter of 1992) page 19.

In the document, the section, Poems of the Path:

First page of that (labeled page 4) is from the book Budo: Teachings of the Founder of Aikido

The first para on page 5 is from the above book, too.

Some of the other paragraphs or doka on page 5 can be found in the books The Spirit of Aikido and Bokken: Art of the Japanese Sword. I'd bet the other doka can be found throughout other books. Looks to be a compilation from various sources.

Page 6 is from Saotome Sensei's book Aikido and the Harmony of Nature, I believe.

Mark

Last edited by MM : 12-16-2010 at 08:40 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:04 AM   #31
MM
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Re: Possible Copyright Violation?

Huh ...

Interestingly enough, this PDF file was the subject of an Aikiweb thread back in 2007.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12751

And I keep getting references on various websites quoting Richard Moon and his "book". For example,

http://sites.google.com/site/subtlee...sspring09/ikap

Last edited by MM : 12-16-2010 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:51 AM   #32
MM
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Re: Possible Copyright Violation?

I can't find any specific places that references the bulk of the PDF file, though. While some of it appears familiar, I can't find places where it is listed. One guess would be that someone had the Japanese magazines and books for Ueshiba's lectures and discourses and translated them on their own. But, I would think Peter would know where the extracts were in the original Japanese. Since he's unsure ... I guess if someone were really curious, Richard Moon would be the logical source to ask.

Mark
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:57 AM   #33
kewms
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Re: Possible Copyright Violation?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Regarding Stan Pranin:

I consider Stan to be the preeminent historian of aikido and related arts, and have held him in this esteem for over 10 years. I have bought numerous products from him and I'm sure I will buy more in the future. But none of that has anything to do with my viewpoint on copyright law.

As far as Stan's financial situation, I seriously doubt anyone is making a fortune off of aikido related products. It's a pretty small niche. Many of us wish our chosen professions were more profitable, and I encourage Stan and others to discover ways to maximize their profitability.
As long as that doesn't involve aggressive enforcement of his copyrights... Got it.

Katherine
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:52 PM   #34
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Possible Copyright Violation?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I can't find any specific places that references the bulk of the PDF file, though. While some of it appears familiar, I can't find places where it is listed. One guess would be that someone had the Japanese magazines and books for Ueshiba's lectures and discourses and translated them on their own. But, I would think Peter would know where the extracts were in the original Japanese. Since he's unsure ... I guess if someone were really curious, Richard Moon would be the logical source to ask.

Mark
Hello Mark,

I am unsure only to the extent that I cannot, without some effort, point to a specific source on many of the pages. I have more than enough resources about Morihei Ueshiba in Japanese.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:53 PM   #35
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Re: Possible Copyright Violation?

There is an email address to a "rmoon" at the heading of the file to which anyone can send any questions/concerns. My personal recommendation is that people do this instead of discussing it here.

Richard Moon is an intriguing Aikido teacher, a serious student of Robert Nadeau`s and a stand up guy. He was very kind to me when I visited the Bay area many years ago and engaged me in a no-bullshit style that I greatly appreciated and benefited from. He was the same when we met up at Honbu a few years later when he came to visit. I am certain that he would take seriously any honest enquiries about the subject and respond appropriately.
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Old 12-17-2010, 05:58 AM   #36
MM
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Re: Possible Copyright Violation?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Mark,

I am unsure only to the extent that I cannot, without some effort, point to a specific source on many of the pages. I have more than enough resources about Morihei Ueshiba in Japanese.

Best wishes,

PAG
Hello Peter,

That was my understanding of your post. My apologies if I didn't convey that well enough in my response.

Thanks,
Mark
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