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Old 12-15-2010, 09:22 AM   #376
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Just reading these latter posts here seems to me that many aikidoka keep referring to the "hold my wrist syndrome" which is all very well, but is not good in just using that for novices.... I teach this right from the start...... by doing light atemi and getting my students to avoid with their bodies completely in any direction they can and finding out for themselves what they can and can't do. I also teach basic atemi in all it's myriad forms as a warm up in preparation for their practice to follow, starting with an entry waza such as ushiro ate (rear attack) then utilizing all the other atemi waza inherent in T/S aikido.....
We of course hold one anothers wrists to find out kuzushi which to me is non evident in most of the aikido we see today.... that's where the aiki is...... it's in the kuzushi.....
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Old 12-15-2010, 09:34 AM   #377
Chris Evans
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Because...

mostly that (1) too much idealistic consideration's given to the felon's safety at the unacceptable risk of the defender's
and
somewhat that (2) only very very few Aikido-only person could do well testing their art in a MMA/UFC type of pressure, in an open call for challenges: if Aikido-ka would break bones in such agreed duels then people will know Aikido's for real.

I'm just explaining why. I believe Aikido's for real, but for a large portion of Aikido-ka (and also for many in Karate-ka) self-knowledge through managing fear, pain, and fully practical physical skills is not a priority: The mind is polished through the "bitter" work on the body, that's a full circle. Many folks are comfortable with delusional or limited martial arts, like doing moving, compliant, yoga.

Unless Aikido-ka get known for breaking bones using Aikido the perception will not change.

Last edited by Chris Evans : 12-15-2010 at 09:49 AM.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 12-15-2010, 09:35 AM   #378
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
It seems to me that the static grab attack while perhaps unfortunately necessary for beginners, is not in an aiki direction. In other words, while it certainly is necessary to be able to deal with such an attack, it seems better to practice "leading" and not let the uke grab you how they want. As a Nage, he or she is-in my opinion,........... late. Perhaps there was not the latitude with who was teaching that particular class.

However, if there was, then the yudansha should be less concerned about the strength of the grab and be more concerned with why she let herself be grabbed (and threatened through implication of the other had and weapons the Uke has at that range) in the manner the Uke desired. Who is dictating the interaction-the Uke or is the Nage-just be reactive?

I have seen it with plenty of seniors as well including myself-either because they never learned to break the the often inevitable habit or had a mind gaff because one forgets how dangerous the attack has the potential to be.
I agree with this and it is something that we have been working on in class of late. Moving from the static attack of a beginner into the more fluid dynamics of a more advanced student and even exploring the concept of nage initiating the entire process. It's quite fascinating.

In defense of the person I was training with. We were working on an excercise which required a static grab.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Good. Like I said, wasn't there and I was keying off the comment about sinking. There is one guy I train with who for whatever reason has never gotten the idea that you don't just grab like a bag of rocks. And he wonders why every now and then someone will dump his butt in some odd way. Well, usually because his attack is sometimes stupidly dead.
It's all good. Any newer person reading this or anyone who has this habit will benefit form the comments.

I've had guys grab me that way many times. It's kind of annoying to me so I don't do it to others. Not to mention I have seen the results of trying that on a yundasha. It's entertaining watching them try that trick on sensei.
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Old 12-15-2010, 10:24 AM   #379
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote: View Post
Because...

mostly that (1) too much idealistic consideration's given to the felon's safety at the unacceptable risk of the defender's
and
somewhat that (2) only very very few Aikido-only person could do well testing their art in a MMA/UFC type of pressure, in an open call for challenges: if Aikido-ka would break bones in such agreed duels then people will know Aikido's for real.

I'm just explaining why. I believe Aikido's for real, but for a large portion of Aikido-ka (and also for many in Karate-ka) self-knowledge through managing fear, pain, and fully practical physical skills is not a priority: The mind is polished through the "bitter" work on the body, that's a full circle. Many folks are comfortable with delusional or limited martial arts, like doing moving, compliant, yoga.

Unless Aikido-ka get known for breaking bones using Aikido the perception will not change.
Read this..... http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-15-2010, 10:27 AM   #380
C. David Henderson
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Hi Tony,

I could not open this link. FYI

David Henderson
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Old 12-15-2010, 11:03 AM   #381
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Hi Tony,

I could not open this link. FYI
Sorry Charles have checked it and it works from here....?
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Old 12-15-2010, 11:05 AM   #382
Chris Evans
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Question Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
awesome:

from the above site:
"...Make no mistake, I respect Aikido and its principals. I do not respect the people who over the years with their inflated grades and ego's have tried to change what was once a martial art in to some quasi religion to suit their own inadequate purpose. These people use this BS to avoid a real situation or a conflict where they may one day need to apply some of the vapourised bs they have been harmonising and teaching for years.
These plastic Samurai creep out from behind their computer screens to leave comments on my videos or articles...........I have never had ONE visit my dojo or gym...

Show me a dojo in or near Berkeley with teachers & students that enjoy the preparation it takes to play (or "fight" as many MMA folks like to say) in the MMA cage, then I'll join and split my time with BJJ/Judo, but 2/week Aikido does not seem to be enough...

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 12-15-2010, 11:35 AM   #383
C. David Henderson
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Now it worked. Thank you.

David

David Henderson
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Old 12-15-2010, 12:37 PM   #384
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote: View Post
Because...

mostly that (1) too much idealistic consideration's given to the felon's safety at the unacceptable risk of the defender's
and
somewhat that (2) only very very few Aikido-only person could do well testing their art in a MMA/UFC type of pressure, in an open call for challenges: if Aikido-ka would break bones in such agreed duels then people will know Aikido's for real.

I'm just explaining why. I believe Aikido's for real, but for a large portion of Aikido-ka (and also for many in Karate-ka) self-knowledge through managing fear, pain, and fully practical physical skills is not a priority: The mind is polished through the "bitter" work on the body, that's a full circle. Many folks are comfortable with delusional or limited martial arts, like doing moving, compliant, yoga.

Unless Aikido-ka get known for breaking bones using Aikido the perception will not change.
Dear Chris,
Who do you suggest should be the candidate/s for the bone breaking?You, your students or some other guys?Do you want to go out and find somebody in the street and break them up just to promote the image of Aikido as a Martial Art?I personally dont care whether anybody thinks I do an effective/ ineffective art.My own experiences in this game [over 40 years ] leads me to to the opinion that Aikido can if the situation merits it,be martial.
Having the ability to [as you put it ]break bones, does not
mean you have to.
Rather than be concerned about image, do you not feel as responsible people we should advocate non violence and peaceful resolution in potential conflict situations?
All the best , Joe.
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Old 12-15-2010, 01:05 PM   #385
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote: View Post
Because...
...
somewhat that (2) only very very few Aikido-only person could do well testing their art in a MMA/UFC type of pressure, in an open call for challenges: if Aikido-ka would break bones in such agreed duels then people will know Aikido's for real.
So you are asking aikidoka to do things that MMA practitioners do not usually do?. Bone breaking is not common in MMA.

Joe Curran wrote:
Quote:
Rather than be concerned about image, do you not feel as responsible people we should advocate non violence and peaceful resolution in potential conflict situations?
As long as they have a backup if things don't go as expected
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Old 12-15-2010, 01:13 PM   #386
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

It's all coming out now.....verbal keyboard diarrhoeal by the bucket load....
And it ain't from Rick Ellis.....
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Old 12-15-2010, 01:19 PM   #387
Chris Evans
Location: Berkeley, CA.
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Smile Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Chris,
Who do you suggest should be the candidate/s for the bone breaking?You, your students or some other guys?Do you want to go out and find somebody in the street and break them up just to promote the image of Aikido as a Martial Art?I personally dont care whether anybody thinks I do an effective/ ineffective art.My own experiences in this game [over 40 years ] leads me to to the opinion that Aikido can if the situation merits it,be martial.
Having the ability to [as you put it ]break bones, does not
mean you have to.
Rather than be concerned about image, do you not feel as responsible people we should advocate non violence and peaceful resolution in potential conflict situations?
All the best , Joe.
Dear Joe,

The candidate(s) for the "bone breaking" agreed duels in judged challenges, with referee, should be any prepared Aikido-ka ready to open a dojo that'll attract sincere martial artists, like that way Yong-I Choi, aka Mas Oyamas, did for Kyokushin karate-do or the Gracie folks did for Jiujiusu. While I would like that experience, I am not ready, but I am ready to spar in a MMA format, using headgear, UFC-gloves, and shin-instep pads: there I've learned that the basic jab, reverse punch to face, & low round kick (or high round kick) combo' to practical for me.

Having the ability to (1) break bones yet also knowing when & how to prevent or (2) resolve conflicts in a peaceful, non-violent, way is the goal of all budo: Without both pursuits, you are doing moving yoga, which is fine, just as you're satisfied with that truth: Such comfort orientated students are appreciated, supporting the dojo that also teach the fully sincere students.

Non-violence and peaceful resolution in potential conflict situations should be reserved for people of common cause: ie. Civil Rights advocates in the USA, South Africa, and India, but not for violent felons, the KKK, Al-Qaeda and the Taliban --these people deserve their full karma

Image or sincere reputation: a catch 22.

Last edited by Chris Evans : 12-15-2010 at 01:32 PM.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 12-15-2010, 04:14 PM   #388
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

This video has been around a while, if you have not seen it ? then it is worth a look at a MMA fighter and a very flashy Capoeira fighter.
I would imagine it is like an Aikido guy with multi coloured ribbons against an MMA fighter.
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/...ra-Fighter-wmv

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-15-2010, 04:35 PM   #389
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
This video has been around a while, if you have not seen it ? then it is worth a look at a MMA fighter and a very flashy Capoeira fighter.
You know it is from a movie (Never Back Down), isn't it? Its as absurd as pointing to a Steven Seagal movie to validate aikido.

FYI, I know and have trained with capoeira players who fight in MMA/Vale Tudo with some success. Go figure.
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Old 12-15-2010, 04:49 PM   #390
Anjisan
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Ai symbol Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You know it is from a movie (Never Back Down), isn't it? Its as absurd as pointing to a Steven Seagal movie to validate aikido.

FYI, I know and have trained with capoeira players who fight in MMA/Vale Tudo with some success. Go figure.
I completely understand your point, but when Seagal sensei arrived on the movie scene in the late 80s, the numbers of Aikido students surged. He did help the art. At the time, I was in American kick-boxing and I can tell you that there was a lot of skepticism concerning Aikido and its effectiveness.

In essence, I kept reading and hearing that it was the hippie ponytail guys who couldn't fight/defend themselves out of a wet paper bag so to speak, but talk a big game of philosophical conjecture and nose in the air ideals--ie if you didn't do AIkido the implication being how could one really understand. I belive that when looking at the totality of circumstances, Seagal sensei did much more to help than hurt the image of Aikido.
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:00 PM   #391
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Seagal sensei did much more to help than hurt the image of Aikido.
If helping the image of aikido is giving a fictional portrait of it, so be it. I'd rater prefer a realistic one.
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:12 PM   #392
Anjisan
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Talking Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
If helping the image of aikido is giving a fictional portrait of it, so be it. I'd rater prefer a realistic one.
I would think that any of the well known martial artists-- Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, and many others would be subject to the same criticism I'm sure. But then that is why it is a Hollywood depiction and not a documentary. If you have seen The Path Beyond Thought, Seagal seemed to be able to walk the walk long before he was up on the silver screen. Perhaps it would have been better for him if he could have lead with that instead of a few of his movies-although Above the Law wasn't bad in my opinion-no wire work that is for sure and Matsuoka sensei's ukemi was pretty sweet.
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:20 PM   #393
Anjisan
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Tongue Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
If helping the image of aikido is giving a fictional portrait of it, so be it. I'd rater prefer a realistic one.
Besides, it is ultimately the responsibility of dojo teachers to frame a realistic picture of Aikido for new students. Seagal sensei did his part by helping get them there.
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:35 PM   #394
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Dear Chris,
I did indicate that ideally one should have the potential to harm someone if circumstances were such that violent action was the only option.At the same time I feel that you should try wherever possible to solve issues by peaceful means.
As far as the Taliban /Al Quaeda are concerned have these groups and the UK/USA ever taken the time to enter into a meaningful dialogue officially ?Are we doomed to a battle [with subsequent loss of life in both sides] for the next decade or more? I do not profess to know the answer here but Winston Churchill stated quote Better to Jaw Jaw than War War.
May I also state that MMA/ Brazilian Jiu Jitsu /Karate is sport and is not quite the same as an encounter in real life?There are no refs or rules in a real life.
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Old 12-15-2010, 06:21 PM   #395
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
This video has been around a while, if you have not seen it ? then it is worth a look at a MMA fighter and a very flashy Capoeira fighter.
I would imagine it is like an Aikido guy with multi coloured ribbons against an MMA fighter.
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/...ra-Fighter-wmv

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
I just so love that one Henry.....
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Old 12-15-2010, 06:27 PM   #396
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I just so love that one Henry.....
Tony

You will love this one too...You can choose your own colours for the ribbons...let me know how you get on, you don't need a maypole

http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/...armony-With-Ki

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-15-2010, 06:32 PM   #397
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Blimey!!! What is this?
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Old 12-15-2010, 06:45 PM   #398
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Tony
Re: The ribbon video.

If I recall correctly, you were in the Royal Navy ??? If so, are you able to tell us what messages are being sent by semaphore ???

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-15-2010, 07:09 PM   #399
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Tony
Re: The ribbon video.

If I recall correctly, you were in the Royal Navy ??? If so, are you able to tell us what messages are being sent by semaphore ???

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
I think it reads.... I'm an airy fairy..... SOS..... I'm an airy fairy and I'm lairy..... I'm so cool, I'm so cool.... pat a cake pat a cake bakers man.... give me a shafting as quick as you can......

I think?
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Old 12-15-2010, 07:20 PM   #400
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

You know Henry I've just finished my late shift and there wasn't much about.... I felt I needed a good laugh and popped on here ..... glad I did...
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