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Old 12-14-2010, 09:56 AM   #1
MM
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Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

Has anyone ever wondered what the interaction was like between Ueshiba and Shioda when Ueshiba tested him? Does anyone think that if Shioda were to take any kind of falls, they would look like Modern Aikido ukemi?

Which brings up another interesting item. Why were all those students of Ueshiba taking large rolls and falls? We know that they spoke often about the crushing grip of Ueshiba. We know that some said they would rather not let him get a grip so they rolled out early. We know that Ueshiba had power (not physical strength power). We also know that he changed Daito ryu's training paradigm of bring opponent in and down at one's feet for break/kill to projecting the opponent outward.

I think that the skill differential between Ueshiba and his post war students was so great that the students created and learned a version of rolling and falling. Some had judo backgrounds so it wasn't such a stretch to use judo's teachings to help roll and fall.

It appears that we had two major issues which drove the changes into Modern Aikido.

The first was the physical. Ueshiba wasn't teaching his aiki. By, aiki, understand that I mean the Daito ryu aiki. This isn't the "love" aiki. This is a training methodology to change the body into a martially strong body. By post war, Ueshiba demonstrated and used people to further his progress (in both martial and spiritual which for him was really all one thing). Not having an actual teaching methodology to follow to learn Daito ryu aiki, those post war students did the very best they could. They listened, learned, trained, sometimes asked questions, worked things out, etc. When the son, Kisshomaru, finally stepped into the aikido world, what did he do? He spent a good amount of time learning techniques. And in a few years, what did he say? It should only take a few years to learn techniques. What did he do? He kept a central body of aikido teachers around him to advance aikido into the whole world. How? By two things: techniques and spiritual ideology. The world of Modern Aikido was born and thrived. The focus was shifted from the actual secret of aiki to one of techniques. Who in post war aikido did Ueshiba actually teach his full knowledge of aiki to? Instead, those post war students had to really "steal" whatever they could. Some went to other places to learn. Some asked more questions. Some were able to steal bits and pieces. But overall, Ueshiba didn't really teach. It is not hard to see why Modern Aikido took the turn it did.

Now you have Modern Aikido focusing on techniques when you can read where at least one prewar student mentions that the wrist "techniques" weren't techniques at all but body development exercises. Why is it that most of the giants of aikido came from the pre war era? Why was their training different? Why did they get promotion scrolls for Daito ryu? I think Ueshiba was still working out and training his own aiki. That training was more centered around him building aiki in his body and those pre war students were around that kind of development training. I don't think Ueshiba taught them much either, but the training environment was different. It was easier for them to "steal" bits and pieces of aiki because Ueshiba was still working things out himself.

Finally, at that point, Ueshiba was still very much taking challenges and finding uncooperative people who wanted to beat him. He tested himself against a lot of other budo men. By post war, all that was done.

The second is the spiritual. It's documented that both the prewar and the post war students had no clue to what Ueshiba said when he lectured or talked. It's also documented that Ueshiba's views of a spiritual ideology started with his prewar students. Looking at how Ueshiba trained, it wouldn't be hard to take a "leap of faith" to say that he kept building his spiritual ideology throughout his life. By post war, the world had changed so much that it would be near impossible for those students to understand Ueshiba. Kisshomaru helped change that spiritual ideology into something that would appeal to a world wide audience. As Ueshiba stated, his aikido was for the world, so Kisshomaru (and others), after the war, did exactly that. Oomoto kyo was removed. Kami were removed. I doubt Kisshomaru understood just how much aikido would change into Modern Aikido with its myriad approaches from "Aiki Bunny" to "Shodo Thug", from a dance to a martial jujutsu system. But, we also have Ueshiba telling people that they didn't have to follow in his footsteps and that they could choose their own path. His aiki would make their religion better, their spirituality better.

We have Ueshiba, who could not be moved or pushed, who could make people do what he wanted whether they were willing or not, who could stop someone in his tracks, who could become an avatar of the kami, who could be the Universe, and who understood that all this was the result of his training to be the best that *he* could be. That the training was done inside himself and not from the result of learning thousands of techniques or attending Oomoto kyo lectures. Anyone could look at all the various branches of Daito ryu and their thosuands of techniques and then listen to Ueshiba, Kodo, and Sagawa state their art was formless. It was formless because their entire body was changed by Daito ryu aiki and when non-aiki men contacted that kind of changed body, either by touch or through weapons, they knew it was entirely different. The effect of aiki created vast openings and controls that non-aiki men could not counter. It isn't a far stretch to understand Ueshiba when he came into the dojo and yelled that the students weren't doing his aikido. Or when he yelled about the "soft" stuff when he spent 20 years doing the hard. Physically, they did not have his aiki. Spiritually, they did not understand his lectures. By then, though, Ueshiba only had himself to blame. He had not taught them the complete aiki and he had told them that they could follow their own spiritual path.

Modern Aikido took hold and the world focused on techniques and their own spiritual path. The form or "look" of aikido became the techniques rather than focus on the aiki driven person creating a technique. The techniques became primary and a sort of building block for martial applications rather than the techniques being the building blocks of changing the body through aiki. Spiritual harmony, in places, became the focus over martial ability. This spiritual harmony was called aiki because Ueshiba (like other Japanese who love multiple meanings) said his aiki was ai(love)ki. They conveniently ignored the fact that Ueshiba's aiki was the base and he was comparing what he was/had with ai(love)ki.

And now, we have an ukemi based martial system called Modern Aikido. While some have trained and gotten very good jujutsu out of Modern Aikido, for the most part, there is a lack of aiki. Without aiki (not the love aiki either), how can one train in a martial system that is the "way of aiki"? One of the main detriments to training aiki in a Modern Aikido setting is the ukemi model. It is a great hindrance to becoming martially strong. There was a reason why Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa all fought within their training. They came against men who truly wanted to beat them and would not roll or fall out of something but rather these men would change up the fight dynamically. These men strove to stay standing in a dynamic encounter and to undo all efforts of Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba. And Sagawa, Takeda, ueshiba needed to learn to use aiki to that kind of environnment. That isn't to say the cure is to introduce fighting. It is to say that the solution is to introduce more efforts of uke to not fall or roll but change things more in line with how a really good jujutsu/fighter/judo person would react. Modern Aikido relies too heavily upon its ukemi model. Why? Did not some students say they did so because of the power of Ueshiba, not because they learned it from him? Did not some students say they taught themselves them to roll and fall or that the senior students taught them?

Everywhere you look at Modern Aikido, it is known by what? Look at that kotegaeshi? No, it is rather, look at the breakfall the uke took from a kotegaeshi. The uke being flattened out in midair from an irimi nage. And by what method are these ukes doing this? They are *taught* the ukemi. If you don't believe that, why is it that brand new people training in aikido rarely fall like people who have been training for years? Why is it that a boxer or a BJJ or a judo person rarely react/fall/roll the same as someone training in Modern Aikido for years?

The ukemi training model of Modern Aikido is holding back the development of aiki. That form, or shape, of Aikido does not equal the function of aiki. Training aiki would change the form, or shape, of Modern Aikido significantly.
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:13 AM   #2
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

Great post, Mark.
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Old 12-15-2010, 07:03 AM   #3
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post

Everywhere you look at Modern Aikido, it is known by what? Look at that kotegaeshi? No, it is rather, look at the breakfall the uke took from a kotegaeshi. The uke being flattened out in midair from an irimi nage. And by what method are these ukes doing this? They are *taught* the ukemi. If you don't believe that, why is it that brand new people training in aikido rarely fall like people who have been training for years? Why is it that a boxer or a BJJ or a judo person rarely react/fall/roll the same as someone training in Modern Aikido for years?

The ukemi training model of Modern Aikido is holding back the development of aiki. That form, or shape, of Aikido does not equal the function of aiki. Training aiki would change the form, or shape, of Modern Aikido significantly.
Overall, great post. As far ukemi is concerned, I agree that too many are too quick to jump into the dive. I see this at many seminars mostly from young yudansha who just love throwing their bodies around the mat - the older ones seem to have learned to not do that though

However, I still think ukemi has a roll in training. Granted, newbies are not that prone to take a fall, but that should not be viewed as resistance to a technique, just simply an indication of not knowing how to protect themselves. In this case if nage turns up the technique, the newbie gets hurt. I think ukemi teaching needs to stay in the basic training, but I also think there needs to be more application of resistance by uke based on the appropriate skill levels of both nage and uke - this should create an environment where both nage and uke can ramp things up in a somewhat controlled and safe pace.

Greg
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Old 12-15-2010, 07:58 AM   #4
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Overall, great post. As far ukemi is concerned, I agree that too many are too quick to jump into the dive. I see this at many seminars mostly from young yudansha who just love throwing their bodies around the mat - the older ones seem to have learned to not do that though

However, I still think ukemi has a roll in training. Granted, newbies are not that prone to take a fall, but that should not be viewed as resistance to a technique, just simply an indication of not knowing how to protect themselves. In this case if nage turns up the technique, the newbie gets hurt. I think ukemi teaching needs to stay in the basic training, but I also think there needs to be more application of resistance by uke based on the appropriate skill levels of both nage and uke - this should create an environment where both nage and uke can ramp things up in a somewhat controlled and safe pace.

Greg
Hi Greg,

Most everyone, I think, understands the silliness that is the huge "breakfall" or the "air time". It's a cooperative endeavor, for the most part.

And most everyone, I think, understands the necessity of knowing how to roll, fall, etc. Just a quick glance at other martial arts shows that there is some amount of training on rolling and falling.

I'm going beyond all that. I'm going to the heart of Modern Aikido's training paradigm of using the ukemi model. In a fashion, training includes not going against the force by using the body to move certain ways and to then train the body to roll out of situations. This training ingrains specific reactions in people that are, at the heart, opposite good martial training.

Do we really think Ueshiba was rolling/falling when he was fighting, sparring, or being tested by other budo men? IMO, Ueshiba's version of ukemi was to manage the forces/energy of an attack internally such that the option of roll or fall was never there.

If any of us are looking to the future of aikido and looking to aiki, I think we'll have to take a long, hard look at every aspect of Modern Aikido training and to sit aside what we "know" so that we can look at it from a fresh perspective. And maybe some are already doing that.

Mark
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Old 12-15-2010, 08:09 AM   #5
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Greg,

Most everyone, I think, understands the silliness that is the huge "breakfall" or the "air time". It's a cooperative endeavor, for the most part.

And most everyone, I think, understands the necessity of knowing how to roll, fall, etc. Just a quick glance at other martial arts shows that there is some amount of training on rolling and falling.

I'm going beyond all that. I'm going to the heart of Modern Aikido's training paradigm of using the ukemi model. In a fashion, training includes not going against the force by using the body to move certain ways and to then train the body to roll out of situations. This training ingrains specific reactions in people that are, at the heart, opposite good martial training.

Do we really think Ueshiba was rolling/falling when he was fighting, sparring, or being tested by other budo men? IMO, Ueshiba's version of ukemi was to manage the forces/energy of an attack internally such that the option of roll or fall was never there.

If any of us are looking to the future of aikido and looking to aiki, I think we'll have to take a long, hard look at every aspect of Modern Aikido training and to sit aside what we "know" so that we can look at it from a fresh perspective. And maybe some are already doing that.

Mark
I am with you on all that - just said it a little different and not so eloquent as you
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:45 AM   #6
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

hi Mark, I hear you but I have some questions..

Quote:
We also know that he changed Daito ryu's training paradigm of bring opponent in and down at one's feet for break/kill to projecting the opponent outward.
How do we know this? Pins not part of OS's Aikido ? Plenty of footage of the old man applying seated pins, standing pins.. at his feet. There are also videos of him doing multi-man randori where he casts everyone off. I was taught the same, with the rationale that you dont have a chance if you focus on one enemy alone. Does Daito Ryu have multi-man randori in their practice , I mean not the demos where everyone grabs on, but the kind seen in Aikido videos all over?

Wasnt it part of the same grip story, that the recipient of the grip was there to learn "Aikido's Ukemi" which was considered worth learning by the Kodokan folks?

regards

Alfonso

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:10 AM   #7
Keith Larman
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

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Hi Greg,

Most everyone, I think, understands the silliness that is the huge "breakfall" or the "air time". It's a cooperative endeavor, for the most part.
Just a gigantic fwiw.

Our late sensei, Rod Kobayashi, removed all the big breakfalls from our training. He felt that they were unnecessary, dangerous for new students, but also a dangerous move for nage for a variety of reasons. He also dramatically shortened our kokyunage. We barely move them at all before dropping and we go more down like a modified hijiotoshi than what one would conventionally understand as a big, fluid, moving kokyunage.

The idea was that in a confrontation either the person is taken down and controlled or ejected. The biggest fall you'll see is on an energetic kotegaeshi if nage is in motion when it is done. And it is still not the big "air time" ukemi. More just a harder "whoomp" into the ground. The focus was always "What are you waiting for? down, down, down!" (I still hear my sensei yelling that at me in my sleep).

And if you watch some of the old footage of Tohei doing jiu-waza you'll often see that techniques get truncated into fewer and fewer big breakfalls unless the uke tries *really* hard to get it. So Tohei in most of those cases (the ones I've seen, at least) look more like Tohei isn't trying to get the big fall, rather he's just letting them do what they want.

The corollary to all this is that we were taught that nage to some extent *allows* uke to take the ukemi for their safety. The same is not necessarily the case outside of a training situation. In other words, as the training partners improve things should get tighter and tighter and tighter and the window of error becomes very small.

Just my understanding... FWIW. We broke off 30 years ago to play by ourselves, so who knows... I'm increasingly finding that experiences vary quite a bit.

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Old 12-18-2010, 11:34 AM   #8
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Just a gigantic fwiw.

Our late sensei, Rod Kobayashi, removed all the big breakfalls from our training. He felt that they were unnecessary, dangerous for new students, but also a dangerous move for nage for a variety of reasons. He also dramatically shortened our kokyunage. We barely move them at all before dropping and we go more down like a modified hijiotoshi than what one would conventionally understand as a big, fluid, moving kokyunage.

The idea was that in a confrontation either the person is taken down and controlled or ejected. The biggest fall you'll see is on an energetic kotegaeshi if nage is in motion when it is done. And it is still not the big "air time" ukemi. More just a harder "whoomp" into the ground. The focus was always "What are you waiting for? down, down, down!" (I still hear my sensei yelling that at me in my sleep).

And if you watch some of the old footage of Tohei doing jiu-waza you'll often see that techniques get truncated into fewer and fewer big breakfalls unless the uke tries *really* hard to get it. So Tohei in most of those cases (the ones I've seen, at least) look more like Tohei isn't trying to get the big fall, rather he's just letting them do what they want.

The corollary to all this is that we were taught that nage to some extent *allows* uke to take the ukemi for their safety. The same is not necessarily the case outside of a training situation. In other words, as the training partners improve things should get tighter and tighter and tighter and the window of error becomes very small.

Just my understanding... FWIW. We broke off 30 years ago to play by ourselves, so who knows... I'm increasingly finding that experiences vary quite a bit.
Small and faster is always better - better yet, why don't we just drop them on contact

Greg
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:53 AM   #9
Keith Larman
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

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Small and faster is always better - better yet, why don't we just drop them on contact

Greg
Tis the idea...

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Old 12-19-2010, 02:17 PM   #10
Amassus
 
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

There is a style of aikido in NZ called Buikukai Aikido, chief instructor is Junichi Nishimura. Their style is very short and sharp. I enjoy training with these guys a lot. As you go to attack them you find yourself put down very quickly. No running around nage waiting to be dropped or convoluted techniques.

Dean.

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:13 AM   #11
Michael Varin
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

Hey Mark,

Very interesting post! I'm sorry to see, but not at all surprised that it generated no meaningful discussion.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
One of the main detriments to training aiki in a Modern Aikido setting is the ukemi model. It is a great hindrance to becoming martially strong. That isn't to say the cure is to introduce fighting. It is to say that the solution is to introduce more efforts of uke to not fall or roll but change things more in line with how a really good jujutsu/fighter/judo person would react. Modern Aikido relies too heavily upon its ukemi model. Why? Did not some students say they did so because of the power of Ueshiba, not because they learned it from him? Did not some students say they taught themselves them to roll and fall or that the senior students taught them?

Everywhere you look at Modern Aikido, it is known by what? Look at that kotegaeshi? No, it is rather, look at the breakfall the uke took from a kotegaeshi. The uke being flattened out in midair from an irimi nage. And by what method are these ukes doing this? They are *taught* the ukemi. If you don't believe that, why is it that brand new people training in aikido rarely fall like people who have been training for years? Why is it that a boxer or a BJJ or a judo person rarely react/fall/roll the same as someone training in Modern Aikido for years?
This I very strongly agree with. I have often thought that the only real challenge most aikidoists face in their training is learning how to take better ukemi. Interestingly, it is quite noticeable that the level of ukemi has improved in aikido over the years.

Here is a video of pre-war Morihei and some pretty standard ukemi. This would have been a few years into Shioda's training, but it doesn't look like he is an uke in the video. Yes. It is a demonstration, but we don't have much more to go on.

I wonder what Morihei would think about adding a sparring/resistive/uncooperative/alive/whatever training method to aikido, because, as I understand, he did not want there to be a winner and loser per se, which necessitates a cooperative model.

Another important consideration is weapons training, and its impact on this model. If you are training with live blades failure to use cooperative ukemi, i.e., taking the fall is very foolish. Hard woods pose a similar threat. This is a factor that just isn't present in judo, bjj, or boxing. And, of course, today it can be overcome by using a variety of safer training implements.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
It was formless because their entire body was changed by Daito ryu aiki and when non-aiki men contacted that kind of changed body, either by touch or through weapons, they knew it was entirely different.
This is a serious question, and one that has been avoided in the past. If the blade of a cutting sword contacts a "changed body," what is the affect? Is the man still cut? What about the point of a knife? Still stabbed? If the answers are yes, then the value of the "conditioning" is minimal without the ability to stop or avoid a strike, whatever that entails.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Now you have Modern Aikido focusing on techniques when you can read where at least one prewar student mentions that the wrist "techniques" weren't techniques at all but body development exercises.

Anyone could look at all the various branches of Daito ryu and their thosuands of techniques and then listen to Ueshiba, Kodo, and Sagawa state their art was formless.

That form, or shape, of Aikido does not equal the function of aiki.
This I cannot agree with. And I feel that it is in some way actually insulting to Morihei and numerous nameless martial artists who developed, refined, and passed these techniques on. Even something that is formless will manifest itself in a form upon application (unless, of course, we are talking about something that operates only on the level of the mind/spirit). So it is one thing to say that empty form does not follow function, but quite another to say that form does not follow function.

To add weight to this, countless martial arts throughout the globe, pre and post Morihei have all contained very similar forms. They all had something in common, something that is common to all serious human combat -- weapons. Any warrior would search for techniques that could be naturally integrated with the use of their weapons, would support the use of those weapons, and, in a pinch, could be used if they were caught without a weapon.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:46 AM   #12
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

Mark............ aaaaahhhh..... the researcher and the historian..........
Gary
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:06 AM   #13
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Hey Mark,

Very interesting post! I'm sorry to see, but not at all surprised that it generated no meaningful discussion.

This I very strongly agree with. I have often thought that the only real challenge most aikidoists face in their training is learning how to take better ukemi. Interestingly, it is quite noticeable that the level of ukemi has improved in aikido over the years.

Here is a video of pre-war Morihei and some pretty standard ukemi. This would have been a few years into Shioda's training, but it doesn't look like he is an uke in the video. Yes. It is a demonstration, but we don't have much more to go on.

I wonder what Morihei would think about adding a sparring/resistive/uncooperative/alive/whatever training method to aikido, because, as I understand, he did not want there to be a winner and loser per se, which necessitates a cooperative model.
Pre-war, I think several students saw the changes being made and tried to address concerns over those changes in their own schools. Mochizuki was one of them. His system was a very good MMA type system.

Shioda went to the Kodokai.

Tomiki attempted to add a "competitive" element to help with using aiki in a more freestyle manner. Unfortunately (and I believe Ueshiba understood this better than his student), that competitive element never worked as it had been planned. Today, we don't have aiki being used in T/S systems but rather there is a pure focus on jujutsu.

I think Ueshiba understood that any form of competition would just devolve his aikido into jujutsu. Ueshiba had done the fighting, the jujutsu, the sparring, the competitions and realized it would not lead to his views of what aikido should be. That isn't to say that competition, fighting, MMA, etc are bad or wrong. Just that they are detrimental to Ueshiba's aikido.

The important fact to remember, though, is that Ueshiba's aikido did not *need* cooperative practice.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
This is a serious question, and one that has been avoided in the past. If the blade of a cutting sword contacts a "changed body," what is the affect? Is the man still cut? What about the point of a knife? Still stabbed? If the answers are yes, then the value of the "conditioning" is minimal without the ability to stop or avoid a strike, whatever that entails.
If you're in a knife fight, you're going to get cut. That's the general rule, aiki or no aiki. If a razor sharp blade is drawn along skin, it's going to cut. That's the general rule, aiki or no aiki.

But, then again, the martial arts (all of them) are about training to avoid that particular outcome. The martial arts aren't about stopping bullets with one's body, becoming impervious to razor sharp cuts, etc. They are about the interaction up to that point such that a cut is not successfully made, or if it is, that it is made in a manner that does not impair/maim/kill.

Aiki in a martial art creates better odds that one can achieve the above than compared to someone without aiki. Aiki alone, generally, will not do this. As aiki changes the body, that means the martial skill needs to be trained. If you want to box, you have to learn how to box. If you want to fight, you have to learn how to fight. Etc. The advantage that aiki creates is not insignificant nor should it be underestimated, as those hundreds of great martial artists from all areas found when they tested Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, etc.
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:32 AM   #14
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Shioda went to the Kodokai.
Not to side track the OP and overall premise, with which I agree but...

This assertion gets tossed around alot and I've yet to hear/see anything concrete other than it is generally accepted that Kodo visited the Yoshinkan a handful of times and Shioda cleared the place out for him. As Ellis points out, no one really knows what was going on there - whether Kodo was teaching Shioda or whether they were just kicking back and sharing a drink.

A couple points that seem to contradict the "Shioda went to the Kodokai" theory are:

1. Shioda's technique was already well established and respected by the time he had established the Yoshinkan. Tenryu encouraged him to start up a school because his technique was "most like Ueshiba's." And, he took top honors at the All Japan Martial Arts Expo (over Tohei). These events were pre-Yoshinkan and so by extension pre-meeting with Kodo (according to the available lore).

2. How many times do you hear of a budo teacher going to the student? I would think that if Shioda was training under Kodo, he would have visited at Horikawa's place or somewhere neutral, not the reverse. Not implying that Kodo studied from Shioda! But rather, that there may not have been much (or any) budo going on when they were hanging out.

...rab

Last edited by Rabih Shanshiry : 12-23-2010 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:50 AM   #15
MM
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

Hey Rab,

Hope you're doing well!

Just to get off topic for a post or two ... Taking out Shioda and Kodo, there were many trips by aiki men to other aiki men and I haven't heard of one of them that was made to just tip back a beer or as a social visit. Shioda would be the anomaly. Not that it couldn't happen, but that the odds are against it.

Mark

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Not to side track the OP and overall premise, with which I agree but...

...rab
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:14 PM   #16
Allen Beebe
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Re: Form does not equal function aka The Shape of Aikido

Is there a generally known time frame for the visits?

~ Allen Beebe
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