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Old 12-13-2010, 01:20 PM   #51
Flintstone
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Perhaps here you can learn something http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13276
Sorry to inform you that you are Mrs. Nobody to try to teach me no nothing. You still don't know about me or my (lack of) knowledge on the matter so how dare you. Not that it does matter to the discussion. Won't argue with nonsensical arguments anymore.
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:21 PM   #52
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
"Good movement" in the sense of "pleasant feeling movement" is not, to me the same as "morally good." What's the connection for you?
I were quoting to the whole threat not just to good movement or pleasant feeling movement
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:22 PM   #53
Flintstone
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
I were quoting to the whole threat not just to good movement or pleasant feeling movement
So how does that thread support your argument then? Or were you just trying to preach?
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:24 PM   #54
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Sorry to inform you that you are Mrs. Nobody to try to teach me no nothing. You still don't know about me or my (lack of) knowledge on the matter so how dare you. Not that it does matter to the discussion. Won't argue with nonsensical arguments anymore.
Sorry to inform you that I'm not trying to teach you anything. You still don't know about me . And by the way how much time did you live in Japan?
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:28 PM   #55
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Sorry to inform you that I'm not trying to teach you anything. You still don't know about me . And by the way how much time did you live in Japan?
You failed at reading classes?
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:30 PM   #56
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So how does that thread support your argument then? Or were you just trying to preach?
From http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html.

In essence, the character ki means:

* spirit, mind, soul, heart
* intention
* bent, interest
* mood, feeling
* temper, disposition, nature
* care, attention
* air, atmosphere
* flavor
* odor
* energy, essence, air, indications
* symptoms
* taste
* touch, dash, shade, trace
* spark, flash
* suspicion

Here are some contexts in which the word "ki" and some of its derivations are used in everyday Japanese.

Japanese Phrase Kanji Literal Translation Definition
Gen ki "source/foundation of ki." one's health
Byou ki "ill ki." to be sick
Ten ki "heavenly ki." the weather
Ki ga tatsu "the ki stands upright." to get angry
Ki wo tsukeru "to put on (or to have) ki" to be careful; to be attentive
Ki ga kiku "the ki is used a lot" to be empathetic
Ki ga susumanai "the ki does not go forward." to not want to do something
Ki ga sumu "the ki is finished or used up." to feel fulfilled
Ki ga tsuku "to have "ki" put onto you." to notice
Ki ga tsuyoi "the ki is strong." to be headstrong
Ki ga yowai "the ki is weak." to be like a coward
Ki ga tooku naru "the ki goes far away." to become lightheaded
Ki ga nai "to have no ki" to have no interest in something
Ki ga nukeru "the ki becomes missing." to lose hope
Ki ga mijikai "the ki is short." to be short tempered
Ki ni sawaru "something touches the ki." to find something irritating
Ki ni naru "to become ki" to have something nagging or on one's mind
Ki wo kubaru "to pass out ki (to people)" to attend to other people's wishes"

And I would add,O'sensei wanted us to practice in an atmosphere of joy then your Aikido could be funki.

This is from the quoted threat. So have you enough definitions of ki?
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:34 PM   #57
jonreading
 
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Therefore I put it to you (oh dear, this is starting to look like an intellectual argument) that my mention of spiritual puts some people off and that my evidence is my experience and my ability and so I can only teach what I know and say what I know but I never say it'sahhhh feel.
Not me. Lets keep the focus on the post you made. If you have a spiritual component of your argument I do not oppose that component. I only oppose the "you don't know me" excuse to explaining how you arrived at your conclusion. What interview with O'Sensei are you citing? Where is the transcript? Or was the interview interpreted? If so, by whom? How did you derive your statement from the context of the interview? What Shihan support this viewpoint? Is your viewpoint a progeny of your own deduction, or were they any contributions from others? These are all great questions to which I would like to see the answer. You are explaining a point and I am all for the ride but you're not bringing me along... This stuff is all elementary to an educational thesis, I'm trying to get learned here after all. Check out those members on this forum who have solid writing. Hell, Dr. Goldsbury writes half his posts in Japanese (I can't even figure out how to insert the dang symbols). You wanna play with the big boys, you gotta come with something... Every river begins as a trickle in the mud, right? I got some popcorn for a good read if it takes you a while.

Quote:
Here's a thought for you. In all of my posts no one ever asked me a question from the viewpoint that I knew more than them or equally as much as them. They either put down what I said or challenged it for the most part which believe it or not I was surprised by. I have stated I have spiritual construct, principles which can be practiced but no one asked what they are. I have stated that there is a spiritual side, a mental side and a physical side to all techniques and principles in Aikido but I work from the view that when someone asks specifically on one aspect of Aikido and how that applies to that one thing then they are not ready for any more explanation.
Correct. You are not a just-add-water aikido expert just because your post something. To ask others to submit to your ethos without credentials is preposterous. Some of the cats on this forum are so long in the tooth they're practically ice-age. You're gonna cram down their throats some jibber jabber, then contest they are not giving your props? My hands get sweaty when some of these lifers read my posts... Then you gonna tell them they're not ready to hear your message? Wow. You want these cats to respect your thinking? Prove to them its legit.

I may not agree with your comments, but if its solid I can respect your argument. "Source citing is important..." According to Wikipedia Abraham Lincoln said this after defeating the Klingons at Gettysburg to end the Revolutionary War.
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:37 PM   #58
C. David Henderson
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

How does the thread as a whole support your view?

David Henderson
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:41 PM   #59
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
You failed at reading classes?
Sorry I'didn't see your answer in the 2 page.
Did you see that

From http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html.

In essence, the character ki means:
spirit, mind, soul, heart
* intention
* bent, interest
* mood, feeling
* temper, disposition, nature
* care, attention

So it also can mean kindness..
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:54 PM   #60
graham christian
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
How does the thread as a whole support your view?
Overall I think it's part supportive and part suspicious.

Regards. G.
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:57 PM   #61
C. David Henderson
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

So then, if "ki" in general, is "kindness," then

* spirit, mind, soul, heart
is Kind.

* intention
is Kind.

* bent, interest
is Kind

* mood, feeling
is Kind

* temper, disposition, nature
is Kind

* care, attention
is Kind

* air, atmosphere
is Kind

* flavor
is Kind

* odor
is Kind

* energy, essence, air, indications
is Kind

* symptoms
is Kind

* taste
is Kind

* touch, dash, shade, trace
is Kind

* spark, flash
is Kind

And,

* suspicion
is Kind?

David Henderson
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:03 PM   #62
Flintstone
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Sorry I'didn't see your answer in the 2 page.
Did you see that

From http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html.

In essence, the character ki means:
spirit, mind, soul, heart
* intention
* bent, interest
* mood, feeling
* temper, disposition, nature
* care, attention

So it also can mean kindness..
I saw the page. So... what? 気 still does NOT mean "kindness". Plus I'm still waiting to know your mileage to say that.


―meanings―
spirit
mind
―on-yomi―


―kun-yomi―
いき

気 【き】 (n) spirit, mood, (P)
気 【げ】 (suf) (uk) seeming, giving the appearance of, giving one the feeling of.

Listen, Carina. I don't know what you (don't) know about Japanese, but a kanji represents a concept. It is an ideogram. When you put more than one kanji together you (sometimes) alter its meaning.

気 means "spirit, mind, air, steam..." 病気 means "illness, disease, sickness..." 元気 means "health(y), robust, vigor, vigour, energy, vitality, vim, stamina, spirit, courage..." (and Asami, and Motoki, but I digress.) So according to this 気, 病気 and 元気, what's the meaning of 気? Spirit/mind or illness/disease or healthy/robust? And... how does it come to mean "kindness" for God's sake?

Confundes la parte por el todo.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:06 PM   #63
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
I saw the page. So... what? 気 still does NOT mean "kindness". Plus I'm still waiting to know your mileage to say that.

Confundes la parte por el todo.
Ki wo kubaru "to pass out ki (to people)" to attend to other people's wishes"
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:11 PM   #64
Flintstone
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Ki wo kubaru "to pass out ki (to people)" to attend to other people's wishes"
気を配る is NOT 気. It's a made expresión, not a word, not an ideogram, not a kanji, not a hanzi. Your train of thought is the same as saying that "<today> means <fog> because I can say <today it's foggy>" Weird.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:11 PM   #65
lbb
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Sorry I'didn't see your answer in the 2 page.
Did you see that

From http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html.

In essence, the character ki means:
spirit, mind, soul, heart
* intention
* bent, interest
* mood, feeling
* temper, disposition, nature
* care, attention

So it also can mean kindness..
Carina, honestly, I think that's a bit of a stretch. I really do. The function of words is to communicate. That doesn't mean that they must have a singular meaning (most words probably have more than one meaning, or at least different shades of meaning), or that they must always be unambiguous. But when we twist a word around and try to make it fit any situation we want, just because we like something about the word and its associations (or what we believe its associations to be), it becomes so distorted that it's no longer useful for communication. You stretched the above list of definitions to get "ki" to mean "kindness"; with no more of a stretch, I can get it to mean "anger". Is this useful?

To use a similar example: the word "zen" refers to a school of Buddhism and its practices. Admittedly a large house, it is nevertheless a specific spiritual tradition -- that's what the word "zen" means. In the United States, however, the word is commonly misused in popular culture as a general catchphrase for many different things that have nothing at all to do with this tradition. The label "zen" is variously used to mean simplicity in design, or intense concentration, or tranquility, or a way to decorate your house, or anything vaguely Oriental. Everything from hair salons to marketing companies describe their product as "Zen" or "Zen-like". It has this aura of cool, of mysticism and esotericism, of knowing more than you do and (because of said mysticism and esotericism) being forever absolved from having to actually explain what you know. If you claim the "zen" label, you can forever deflect calls for explanation with a pitying smile: poor unenlightened mortal bound to the wheel, still chained to your need for explanations. Give up the need for explanations! Some things you can only feel.

Substitute the word "zen" with the word "ki" in the paragraph above, and honestly, I think that's the direction you're heading. I don't think it's a direction that leads to understanding, only more muddying of the waters.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:14 PM   #66
C. David Henderson
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

The problem isn't that "ki" could sometimes be said to operate in a manner that is "kind. The thesis is not, "I can act with ki and still be kind."

Rather that ki, by its nature, is kindness. (So that a budo focused on harm does not, in Graham's view, utilize "ki.")

Finding an example among the many that do NOT fit merely proves the opposing point of view -- a person may act kindly in using "ki," but also may act in other ways.

By presenting a list of alternative meanings, you preclude the thesis of the OP, I believe.

Last edited by C. David Henderson : 12-13-2010 at 02:17 PM.

David Henderson
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:19 PM   #67
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

To Alejandro and Mary, I sure do not know as much about japanese kanjis as you two. Graham began the threat ki is kindness, I agree with him and for me something like to attend to other people's wishes is kindness, that ki has other meanings also, of course..
But it is also kindness, it is just my opinion and I understand that you and many other people have other opinions, I respect that. Please why do you not respect my opinion,
thanks
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:38 PM   #68
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Because is an opinion that doesn't deserve respect.

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Old 12-13-2010, 02:41 PM   #69
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
But it is also kindness, it is just my opinion and I understand that you and many other people have other opinions, I respect that. Please why do you not respect my opinion,
thanks
Well, perhaps because -- as I just explained -- I don't think that the meaning of words is purely a matter of opinion. If you decided that the word "banana" also meant "airplane", and I begged to differ, would you say that I was not "respect[ing] your opinion"? And, to return to my earlier post, why the need to twist one word when you have another that fits? If you act with kindness, why the need to say that you're acting with ki?
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:42 PM   #70
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Because is an opinion that doesn't deserve respect.
I also respect your opinion Demetrio. What we are doing here is also Aikido, although I doubt Alejandro and you will understand that
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:42 PM   #71
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
how does it come to mean "kindness" for God's sake?
I took it to be a looser application of meaning rather than some literal translation...along the lines of, say, "teaching is kindness." Obviously the two terms mean different things, but that doesn't mean they can't overlap in some particular context. There are times where teaching is in fact an example of kindness, and there are time where it is not.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:43 PM   #72
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Well, perhaps because -- as I just explained -- I don't think that the meaning of words is purely a matter of opinion. If you decided that the word "banana" also meant "airplane", and I begged to differ, would you say that I was not "respect[ing] your opinion"? And, to return to my earlier post, why the need to twist one word when you have another that fits? If you act with kindness, why the need to say that you're acting with ki?
Yes Mary why??? because that is what the threat is about
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:45 PM   #73
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I took it to be a looser application of meaning rather than some literal translation...along the lines of, say, "teaching is kindness." Obviously the two terms mean different things, but that doesn't mean they can't overlap in some particular context. There are times where teaching is in fact an example of kindness, and there are time where it is not.
For me also teaching if I think of my teacher is great kindness and of course also ki
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:53 PM   #74
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I took it to be a looser application of meaning rather than some literal translation...along the lines of, say, "teaching is kindness." Obviously the two terms mean different things, but that doesn't mean they can't overlap in some particular context. There are times where teaching is in fact an example of kindness, and there are time where it is not.
Hi Matt,

I agree with you. My reservation is with the magical thinking of the OP that if I act with ki, my acts will ipso facto be kind acts. Which I see as a variety of bad faith.

David Henderson
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:53 PM   #75
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Because is an opinion that doesn't deserve respect.
And Demetrio all opinions do deserve respect, I'm sorry to read this, that tells me more of you than every answer you gave me since we met in aikiforum , really very sorry
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