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Old 12-13-2010, 12:10 AM   #26
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
What if we view ki as having a naturally positive nature which gets twisted into something negative? My meager lessons in Jinja Shinto would seem to support this view. "Genki" (source ki, yes?) implies positivity and health, despite the fact that we can describe states of ki that are unhealthy or otherwise negative also. So while we might say some person is byouki, it's only because the original nature of the ki has been twisted, and returning to health would be returning to a genki state (the original state of ki?). Just a quick thought I had anyway.
Take care, all!
Hello Matthew,

You can do this, however, only if you have already previously defined KI in some way. What you are doing is defining KI by looking at the way in which the Chinese characters of a Japanese word are combined and then using this to define the meaning of the Japanese word. You may start out by thinking of KI as a 'naturally positive' nature (whatever this means), but you should then be able to give a similar analysis with all the other 270-odd compounds of the character occurring in modern Japanese. Your analysis seems initially plausible with genki and byouki, but less plausible with terms like 気密 kimitsu (air-tight), where KI is clearly air.

I am stating this, not as a longtime practitioner of aikido, but as a student of the Japanese language.

Best wishes,

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 12-13-2010 at 12:24 AM.

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Old 12-13-2010, 02:49 AM   #27
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

What ki is not is "kindness". As a Japanese student myself.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:55 AM   #28
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
What ki is not is "kindness". As a Japanese student myself.
Alejandro all human beeings are different, so everybody has his own thoughts, for your ki might not be kindness but I think you can accept that some of us not agree with you. This ki was treated in a spiritual way
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Old 12-13-2010, 06:53 AM   #29
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Alejandro all human beeings are different, so everybody has his own thoughts, for your ki might not be kindness but I think you can accept that some of us not agree with you. This ki was treated in a spiritual way
When we're "spiritual mode on" anything goes. For instance, you can enhance the ki of your Kimono leaving it all nigh into the Kitchen. Next day you'lll have the power of Kimura plus the elegance of Kisshomaru. This has been revealed to me by a Kikuyu medicine-man at the top of the Kilimanjaro.

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Old 12-13-2010, 07:10 AM   #30
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
all human beeings are different, so everybody has his own thoughts
...and some thoughts are true and some thoughts are false.
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:33 AM   #31
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
When we're "spiritual mode on" anything goes. For instance, you can enhance the ki of your Kimono leaving it all nigh into the Kitchen. Next day you'lll have the power of Kimura plus the elegance of Kisshomaru. This has been revealed to me by a Kikuyu medicine-man at the top of the Kilimanjaro.
Very smart and "ki minded"
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:34 AM   #32
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
...and some thoughts are true and some thoughts are false.
And who is so wise to know what is true and what is false?
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:42 AM   #33
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
And who is so wise to know what is true and what is false?
We would be wise to make it our job to find out. Don't you think?

Facts and knowledge exist. Not everything is subjective.
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:45 AM   #34
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

No, I don't think I am so wise. Maybe you could tell me..
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:47 AM   #35
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
And who is so wise to know what is true and what is false?
Yours truly.

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Old 12-13-2010, 08:07 AM   #36
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Red is banana.

No, that's not what I meant. Oh, yeah...

All bananas are atheists.

No...

Electricity is kindness?

Hmmmm... Something is wrong here...

What was the old example... A guy is watching a cricket match for the first time after having the game simply explained to him. He sees the bowler, the batsman, the fielders. But then this newcomer asks if someone could point out the player who is the team spirit. Because all teams have bowlers, batsmen, fielders and team spirit.

My latest thought has been that the understanding of "ki" for most in Aikido is what is called a category error. Or maybe better an instance of reification.

Justice is blind. Therefore we should only trust blind judges...

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Old 12-13-2010, 09:17 AM   #37
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

If you treat your banana ki-ndly, it won't turn red (unless you're an atheist).

David Henderson
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:02 AM   #38
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I am stating this, not as a longtime practitioner of aikido, but as a student of the Japanese language.

Best wishes,

PAG
Thank you, Prof. Goldsbury! I was really hoping you would comment on my questions. Does the above mean to imply that your studies of Aikido might differ somewhat from your linguistic studies?
Also, if sometimes we can look at the roots of a compound to understand it's meaning, but not always, how can we tell when it's appropriate to do so? I'm fairly confident I have heard genki described as something akin to "the fundemental nature of ki," in the teachings of Tsubaki Okami Yashiro; assuming I am remembering correctly and not missing some nuance, doesn't this lend some authority to the idea...at least in terms of an authentic spiritual point of view?
Thank you for your time, Sensei!
Take care,
Matthew

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:11 AM   #39
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

"They write books that contradict the rocks, then say that I wrote the books and the rocks are lies."

- The Supreme Being
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:14 AM   #40
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Alejandro all human beeings are different, so everybody has his own thoughts, for your ki might not be kindness but I think you can accept that some of us not agree with you. This ki was treated in a spiritual way
Oh, Carina, please. It is NOT what it IS for me or for you. It IS what it IS. And then you wonder...
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:16 AM   #41
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
And who is so wise to know what is true and what is false?
What IS your experience in 日本語 anyway? Or in Japanese culture? How many times and for how long have you been living in Japan? No need to answer.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:43 AM   #42
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Alejandro all human beeings are different, so everybody has his own thoughts, for your ki might not be kindness but I think you can accept that some of us not agree with you. This ki was treated in a spiritual way
I think this is some of my point. The post did not say "my ki is kindess." The post asserted that ki is kindness; yours, mine, Graham's.

I think there is merit to what Graham says, but I am not sure if he expands his assertion beyond his own belief he can substantiate his claim to others. Its one to say "I think blue is the best color." It's another thing to say, "blue is the best color." It's yet another thing to say "blue is the best color", but you actually mean yellow, not blue. When we present a claim for discussion, we have an obligation to present the claim in such a manner as to withstand argument, then reflect upon that discussion to improve our presentation next time.

Likewise, isn't that how we train with others? to learn our suki so we may better present ourselves next time?

Last edited by jonreading : 12-13-2010 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:51 AM   #43
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Ki is not kindness, giving me chocolate pudding to eat is kindness.

dps
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:31 PM   #44
graham christian
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
In elaborating on your original point, I think you are still missing some elements of evidential support to support your claims. It sounds like you dismiss the need for evidential support, citing instead the need to (ahhhh) "feel it":

But the point is you can confirm strawberries taste sweet; the point of contention would be how sweet and what flavor of sweetness. For the sake of your argument, I am willing to concede that ki exists as an energy form. However, I think you do not built a case sufficient to explain how ki can possess a trait (kindness). Kindness is a emotive state of being. You do not explain how ki, conditional upon accepting it possesses a emotive state, can possess a singular emotion (positive in connotation). This is (I think) what some of the other posters are hinting at... Your interpretation of ki is somewhat different than most and asserted without any supporting evidence. Which is fine, but your posts imply you derived your comments from some factual base that you are withholding from this thread.

Secondly, O'Sensei simply did not say many things attributed to him. In these paraphrases, most often his comments were translated to English, then interpreted in their meaning; sometimes both being performed by the same person. I would expect that in interpreting O'Sensei's teachings, you should at least provide the paraphrase or quote used in your interpretation. Again, your posts imply that you have confirmed factual quotations and historical information from OSensei that support your position but you are withholding this information as well.

Your beliefs are your own. But I think if you choose to share them as part of a discussion you would like to share how you arrived at your educated decisions.

Preaching is the presentation of [religious] doctrine, a sermon. This is a tongue and cheek comment to raise caution about presenting an idea for discussion to a group of like-minded individuals who will not questions the statements validity (as in "preaching to the choir" to describe the preacher speaking to the only regular members in church...the choir). If you choose to present and idea as fact beyond your group of like-minded individuals, you should darn well be able to back up that comment.

Good luck.
Hello Jon.
I am, I must admit, getting used to this 'presenting an argument' point of view and the giving of evidential support based on what someone else said in the past. However I have pointed out an interview given by O'Sensei in which he answers very specific questions and gives very specific answers.

Now people who say that there could be mistranslation or misinterpretation on that interview due to the language I find that quite absurd.

Firstly, there may be a chance on certain words being misunderstood but in that interview he answers many things which I hear people still debating today.

Secondly, a translator would almost certainly have a good understanding of not only the language and it's nuances but also of the context of the sentence and so would invariably get it right.

Thirdly, surely it's more logical to first accept it as it is stated, then practice and apply it in other words test it to see if it is true or valid or useful.

As to me assetrting without too much evidential support well I am probably more guilty of that than not.

I tend to write with the sword so to speak. I tend to write as I teach. I am used to saying a way of doing something or saying what something is based on and then letting people try it from that viewpoint and compare it to what they are used to, to inspect it for themselves.

My posts may imply I have some secret confirmed evidence of what O'Sensei said or that I have something I'm not sharing, well I do but the funny thing is it's not a secret.

I have done everything some people accused me of not doing. For example, I used to train four times a week, super physically and probably harder than most of those who talk about sweat and hardness. I say that with confidence because I have been there in fact I had to train hard until I was exhausted and had no physical energy left and then to be told now we learn about ki, now your lesson begins.

I learned physical movements and techniques. I learned Aikido Motions as different to technique, ie: tenkan, tai-sabake, irimi. I learned then from the view of energy and space ie: circles, spirals, sphere, lines, spirals, gravity (weight underside), center, center line, blending, leading, meeting etc. How this all fits together and how to apply it.

O.K. Now we come to what I feel it is that gives this impression of me knowing what O'Sensei meant or said.

I obviously went through many phases of understanding but I always would go back to looking at how O'Sensei did it compared to others that followed. I would go back and look at what he meant by love and kindness and harmony and no enemies etc.etc. etc. Do you want to know how I found my answers?

When I started looking from spiritual views and how they fitted in with physical and mental and energy and motion and conflict and life and started understanding then what O'Sensei meant.

Therefore I put it to you (oh dear, this is starting to look like an intellectual argument) that my mention of spiritual puts some people off and that my evidence is my experience and my ability and so I can only teach what I know and say what I know but I never say it'sahhhh feel.

Here's a thought for you. In all of my posts no one ever asked me a question from the viewpoint that I knew more than them or equally as much as them. They either put down what I said or challenged it for the most part which believe it or not I was surprised by. I have stated I have spiritual construct, principles which can be practiced but no one asked what they are. I have stated that there is a spiritual side, a mental side and a physical side to all techniques and principles in Aikido but I work from the view that when someone asks specifically on one aspect of Aikido and how that applies to that one thing then they are not ready for any more explanation.

This is either arrogant, stupid or wise on my part, but so be it.

So I would prefer if someone said I tried nikkyo today and looked at what purpose I was doing it from and then I tried doing it from the purpose of being kind, a DEFINITE kindness. I would be interested in the result. No debate, no argument, just test and result. I would have to write a book to explain in detail and unfortunately this is only a forum.

Thanks anyway, it's all good. G.
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:51 PM   #45
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
What IS your experience in 日本語 anyway? Or in Japanese culture? How many times and for how long have you been living in Japan? No need to answer.
How many times and for how long have you been living in Japan?
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:55 PM   #46
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I obviously went through many phases of understanding but I always would go back to looking at how O'Sensei did it compared to others that followed. I would go back and look at what he meant by love and kindness and harmony and no enemies etc.etc. etc. Do you want to know how I found my answers?
Not really. What I want to know is how you looked at how O Sensei did it. You weren't looking at O Sensei actually doing it, up close and in person, so what were you looking at, exactly? And on what basis did you conclude that you therefore knew how O Sensei did it?

(although this is probably a pointless question, given your assertion about the infallibility of translation...but what the hey)
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:05 PM   #47
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Oh, Carina, please. It is NOT what it IS for me or for you. It IS what it IS. And then you wonder...
Perhaps here you can learn something http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13276
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:09 PM   #48
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Ki is not kindness, giving me chocolate pudding to eat is kindness.

dps
And how healthy is that!? That could be interpreted as killing you with kindness couldn' it? Albeit, very slowly and pleasantly!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:17 PM   #49
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

"Good movement" in the sense of "pleasant feeling movement" is not, to me the same as "morally good." What's the connection for you?

David Henderson
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:17 PM   #50
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
How many times and for how long have you been living in Japan?
Couple of times only, two weeks and two months. Studied Japanese language four years though and currently hold a 三級 in the 日本語能力試験 since some six years ago (or so). They say that getting a 二級 in the 能験 is pretty hard and I ran (unfortunately) out of time to prepare for it.

Not that two point five months or a sankyu is a great mileage, but enough to know that 気 does NOT mean "kindness".

Still waiting for your answer. What's your milieu to walk your talk?
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