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Old 12-11-2010, 11:08 PM   #326
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
...but martial artists are becoming rare.....
Are they becoming rare? Or are there just more and more of the other to offset the proportion and make it seem as such? My hunch is that there is just a lot more to sift through.
Quote:
Mickey wrote:
" Good Aikido is dying",
Is your Aikido dying? I don't get this notion that good practice at one school is lessened by poor practice at another. Maybe there's more bad Aikido (never mind the broad differences in personal goals which might be used to define "good practice"), but the "good" Aikido is probably still out there. Or do you see your and others' students caring less about the quality of their training? If anything, based on the popularity of the internal discussions, good Aikido is on the rise, even if just a bit.
Take care,
Matt

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Old 12-12-2010, 12:21 AM   #327
mickeygelum
 
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Is your Aikido dying?
Absolutely, Not.

Quote:
I don't get this notion that good practice at one school is lessened by poor practice at another.
That does not even make sense.
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Old 12-12-2010, 03:42 AM   #328
Hellis
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
As a play on words, then yes I'll rephrase .....Aikido as a "martial art" is dying.... But not in some quarters.....
To my way of thinking, martial arts are about self defence. That is why I practice a martial art to be able to defend myself in times of need. The by product is robust health, not learn to dance, do ballet, play hop skip and jump, with ribbons, bells, and music and delude myself with feel good endorphins.....
The dreamers, "martial arts philosophisers" and con artists are a plenty, but martial artists are becoming rare.....
Does that suffice?
Tony

You have summed the issue up well. I sometime wonder where it all went wrong, did the ribbons and the music happen overnight when I slept in too long ?. I had lunch with Chiba Sensei at the Hut Pub ( dojo ) we were discussing this subject, he hiimself said that Aikido as a martial art had been watered down, I replied " No Sensei, I disagree, Aikido as a Martial Art has been vaporized !! " he laughed out loud....
I would argue that there are still some good dojo's out there, one would need to search for them..
I recall one student who left a dojo when the Sensei promised he would teach them the following week to breath through their toes.
Perhaps he also intended to teach them to talk out of their arris's?

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-12-2010, 04:23 AM   #329
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Tony

You have summed the issue up well. I sometime wonder where it all went wrong, did the ribbons and the music happen overnight when I slept in too long ?. I had lunch with Chiba Sensei at the Hut Pub ( dojo ) we were discussing this subject, he hiimself said that Aikido as a martial art had been watered down, I replied " No Sensei, I disagree, Aikido as a Martial Art has been vaporized !! " he laughed out loud....
I would argue that there are still some good dojo's out there, one would need to search for them..
I recall one student who left a dojo when the Sensei promised he would teach them the following week to breath through their toes.
Perhaps he also intended to teach them to talk out of their arris's?

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
Henry (Sensei)

After reading that, just made me laugh my T*****s off!! Ha ha!
For years on end I just went to the dojo (mine) train with the guys and gals and take ukemi for all that came along. Some stuck, some didn't, but I do know one thing.... When people come up to you years later and you don't remember them (whoops?) Say I remember you, you were my aikido teacher, It was really good, I learnt a lot from what you taught..... Now that's nice, but always inside I think to myself then why pack it up? But there you go...
Teaching was taking ukemi, Not strutting around the mat looking like something is stuck up one's proverbial!! In my time I attended as many seminars, courses, championships I could pack into the time available as well as holding down a hard physical job as an installation sparky (and other things). Half my summer holidays were spent at summer gashuku doing what any serious aikidoka, should be doing, intensive solid training!!
May be I'm a nutter I don't know? I do know one thing, Nobody gives me aggro when I do the T. W. stare!! Ha ha!! Does it come through the eyes as well?
I have met a couple of the types you have described and you should have seen the look on their faces when their "ki" couldn't shift me and they were looking somewhat bewildered when I did a kaeshi waza they didn't see with there "ki"!! Aren't I naughty.....


Tony
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Old 12-12-2010, 09:16 AM   #330
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
That does not even make sense.
What part? Please elaborate. I can't do much with that kind of response. Maybe responses like this are part of the reason why Aikido is being killed by meak little bunnies? My point is that as long as folks like you are doing good Aikido, Aikido cannot "die." That was the sense I had in the remark, but I will be the first to admit I'm not an expert and lack the considerable experience folks like you have.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-12-2010 at 09:25 AM.

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Old 12-12-2010, 10:10 AM   #331
CNYMike
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
As a play on words, then yes I'll rephrase .....Aikido as a "martial art" is dying....The dreamers, "martial arts philosophisers" and con artists are a plenty, but martial artists are becoming rare.....
Does that suffice?
That clarifies things, yes. Thanks.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 12-12-2010, 10:52 AM   #332
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
"Make sure you never have more posts on this forum than you have hours on the mat."
Boy am I in debt! Good thing I like a challenge.
I've been meaning to ask why you think this is important? Or more to the point: what's the problem with it?
My thinking is that it's good to practice communication about different topics and that the written word is a great way to do it. With that in mind, I've been going full speed ahead compared to, well, much less mat time. The only problem I can see is if one thinks they can learn to do Aikido through talking about it. We can learn about Aikido, but the learning of the doing is in the doing. As long as people can remember that, i see no harm in having 1300+ posts and only about 700+ hours mat-time...er...hypothetically speaking of course.

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Old 12-12-2010, 11:10 AM   #333
Hellis
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Tony

One other thing that Chiba Sensei said, was, ""these people call their clubs martial arts clubs, in reality they are no more than social clubs """.............................................

This is better than the toes, it is one of my favourites :-)

From the old " Aikido Today Magazine "

I am a carpenter, I was working in a large house with a very large staircase with landings approaching from both sides.
I saw the small child of the owner approaching from the opposite landing, I feared he would fall down the stairs, I did not have time to reach him, so I SHOUTED and projected my " Ki" through the childs head and out the other side, he fell on the floor crying out loudly, the mother rushed to see what had happened, I explained what I had done, she thanked me, I replied ( wait for this one )
"" Don't thank me, thank Aikido ""

The kid was in his own home, he probably knew exacttly what he was doing until that prat screamed at him and his Ki made the kid sh!t himself..........That child may well be disturbed to this very day...

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-12-2010, 12:22 PM   #334
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Boy am I in debt! Good thing I like a challenge.
I've been meaning to ask why you think this is important? Or more to the point: what's the problem with it?
My thinking is that it's good to practice communication about different topics and that the written word is a great way to do it. With that in mind, I've been going full speed ahead compared to, well, much less mat time. The only problem I can see is if one thinks they can learn to do Aikido through talking about it. We can learn about Aikido, but the learning of the doing is in the doing. As long as people can remember that, i see no harm in having 1300+ posts and only about 700+ hours mat-time...er...hypothetically speaking of course.

Let me elaborate on what I said. There's nothing wrong in practicing good communication. In fact, if you love practicing Aikido it is a give in that you might enjoy talking about Aikido, which is cool.

I think the statement "never post more than you have hour on the mat" comes from a problem I've heard a great deal of Aikidoka be annoyed with. It is the "intellectual" Aikidoka problem. Some one who can talk until they are blue in the face about "being heavy like earth", but fall over like a pin on the mat.
I think the above statement of "never post more than you have hours on the mat" is a warning that application is more important than theory. Basically, keep ourselves in check so we don't become intellectually dishonest about our real knowledge of Aikido.
Say a person is a 6th kyu but for some reason feels the need to teach others about Aiki. No one at his dojo is gonna listen to him about Aiki because he has no practical experience to be teaching other students, especially those who out rank him. But here on the internet, if he talks a good game, he can feel like his is in a place to be teaching others, he can be a shihan on his own IP address.
Nothing is wrong with having 1000 post and 700 training hours, so long as it isn't 1000 posts a year where you go out of your way to try to teach others about Aiki, and 70 mat hours a year of actual applied practice for 7 years. Now 1000 posts in 3 years and 700 of training hours in 3 years, not too shabby of a guy to listen to.

Last edited by RED : 12-12-2010 at 12:29 PM.

MM
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Old 12-12-2010, 01:19 PM   #335
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

I agree with Maggie, although I wouldn't express it in quantitative terms. At least, it's been my own experience that I need a lot of practice to integrate a little theory.
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Old 12-12-2010, 01:31 PM   #336
Keith Larman
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

What about those of us who train all the time and talk all the rest? Blithering idiots we are, yes?

I do think it is very interesting the variation of styles depending on how Aikido came to an area. Tohei's influence on Hawaii and the Western US. The Abe in the UK. Abbe (and others) in France. Then how the aikido itself was manifest over time given regional differences. Yeah, some weird stuff in California (new age gobbledygook is my preferred comment, but that shows my bias, neh?). But now I see Mr. Christian posting from the UK and wow, I had thought that stuff was more a California throwback to the 60's and 70's kinda deal. Now please realize my crack about "gobbledygook" is my own take. I realize that those involved in that type of practice find a great deal of value in it. Cool for them. Not for me. I simply don't get it. I'm probably not sensitive or insightful enough to get it. Or maybe too much time reading philosophy books over the years has ruined me. Whatever floats your boat.

Interestingly enough there was considerable variation in the Southern California scene even with there being mostly the influence of Tohei.

Anyway, I am rambling somewhat off topic. I must admit to a great degree of agreement with Mr. Ellis and Mr. Wagstaffe about what it was supposed to be about. But over time things morphed so much... And while I accept Mr. Ellis and Mr. Wagstaffe's critiques as being truly spot on, I also think it is important to note that things did change for many. And Aikido became something else over time as it went in all those different directions. From O-sensei to Tohei (as chief instructor). To Kisshomaru. To Moriteru. That mainline (in the sense of the family line) also seems to have changed quite a bit, mostly because after reading all of Prof. Goldsbury's article it seems as though it is quite hard to define what the heck Aikido was to Ueshiba Morihei in the first place! And what he wanted people to learn. He seemed to be more worried about his own development and pursuits and allowed for students simply as a means to further that goal of his. He seemed quite content to let others take the reigns in his lifetime, hence Tohei's rise.

Anyway, I'm blathering on. I think in one sense Aikido is really a big tent even if some groups don't want all those "other aikibunny" folk under the tent with them. I'm not saying good or bad, just saying it is more or less just the facticity (to borrow from the existentialists) of it all.

In the end what matter is the practice, goals, and approaches of each group and how well those things match with their students. I have zero problem saying many I've met in Aikido have a truly unrealistic expectation of who they'd fare in a real, physical, violent confrontation. That *is* a problem. But then again there are many who are doing aikido as if it is the same as chado, or meditation, or whatever. Very good too. If it is enlightening, more power to ya. It's the disconnect that is the problem for many...

Enough rambling. And I'm probably not saying anything new here, so... back to swinging my Subarito and doing a few things Dan H taught. Startin' to feel more there... That's good. That's what I'm after. Whatever *that* is.

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Old 12-12-2010, 01:56 PM   #337
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Tony

One other thing that Chiba Sensei said, was, ""these people call their clubs martial arts clubs, in reality they are no more than social clubs """.............................................

This is better than the toes, it is one of my favourites :-)

From the old " Aikido Today Magazine "

I am a carpenter, I was working in a large house with a very large staircase with landings approaching from both sides.
I saw the small child of the owner approaching from the opposite landing, I feared he would fall down the stairs, I did not have time to reach him, so I SHOUTED and projected my " Ki" through the childs head and out the other side, he fell on the floor crying out loudly, the mother rushed to see what had happened, I explained what I had done, she thanked me, I replied ( wait for this one )
"" Don't thank me, thank Aikido ""

The kid was in his own home, he probably knew exacttly what he was doing until that prat screamed at him and his Ki made the kid sh!t himself..........That child may well be disturbed to this very day...

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
The way he describes it Henry, is utter bull, but if he had said the "Power of Command" that would have been a better and rational explanation.... I/we were taught to project our voices through our diaphragms, by the use of breath, (which is exactly the same as using a kiai shout) when doing drill on a parade ground, that is as class leader which, I was, in basic training at H.M.S. Raleigh and training at H.M.S. Collingwood. I had to march the class from classroom to classroom and also bark orders for them to hear me, when turning left, right, halt and so forth..... I was particularly good at rifle drill, but a mediocre shot... ha ha!
Maybe that kid has fear going down a flight of stairs now who knows?
This is precisely what niggles me about these deluded types, the same types that believe in spooks, ghosts, aliens, conspiracy theories and anything else that is imaginary.....
Saying that, we've all shouted at our kids when they are about to do something daft like running out into the middle of the road and then had to apologise to them after explaining why they shouldn't do it....
Just common sense and nothing else.....
The only ki I've got is the one that opens my door when I get home from work.......

Tony
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Old 12-12-2010, 02:07 PM   #338
Keith Larman
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

I remember telling someone one day that they needed to kiai like they had just seen their child across the room with their hand inside a running blender. "STOP RIGHT NOW!!!!"

*That* is the voice. A yell from the very core that leaves nothing to doubt. One of those yells that cuts right through the brain into the most primitive parts. Stop them in their tracks.

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Old 12-12-2010, 02:07 PM   #339
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
What about those of us who train all the time and talk all the rest? Blithering idiots we are, yes?

I do think it is very interesting the variation of styles depending on how Aikido came to an area. Tohei's influence on Hawaii and the Western US. The Abe in the UK. Abbe (and others) in France. Then how the aikido itself was manifest over time given regional differences. Yeah, some weird stuff in California (new age gobbledygook is my preferred comment, but that shows my bias, neh?). But now I see Mr. Christian posting from the UK and wow, I had thought that stuff was more a California throwback to the 60's and 70's kinda deal. Now please realize my crack about "gobbledygook" is my own take. I realize that those involved in that type of practice find a great deal of value in it. Cool for them. Not for me. I simply don't get it. I'm probably not sensitive or insightful enough to get it. Or maybe too much time reading philosophy books over the years has ruined me. Whatever floats your boat.

Interestingly enough there was considerable variation in the Southern California scene even with there being mostly the influence of Tohei.

Anyway, I am rambling somewhat off topic. I must admit to a great degree of agreement with Mr. Ellis and Mr. Wagstaffe about what it was supposed to be about. But over time things morphed so much... And while I accept Mr. Ellis and Mr. Wagstaffe's critiques as being truly spot on, I also think it is important to note that things did change for many. And Aikido became something else over time as it went in all those different directions. From O-sensei to Tohei (as chief instructor). To Kisshomaru. To Moriteru. That mainline (in the sense of the family line) also seems to have changed quite a bit, mostly because after reading all of Prof. Goldsbury's article it seems as though it is quite hard to define what the heck Aikido was to Ueshiba Morihei in the first place! And what he wanted people to learn. He seemed to be more worried about his own development and pursuits and allowed for students simply as a means to further that goal of his. He seemed quite content to let others take the reigns in his lifetime, hence Tohei's rise.

Anyway, I'm blathering on. I think in one sense Aikido is really a big tent even if some groups don't want all those "other aikibunny" folk under the tent with them. I'm not saying good or bad, just saying it is more or less just the facticity (to borrow from the existentialists) of it all.

In the end what matter is the practice, goals, and approaches of each group and how well those things match with their students. I have zero problem saying many I've met in Aikido have a truly unrealistic expectation of who they'd fare in a real, physical, violent confrontation. That *is* a problem. But then again there are many who are doing aikido as if it is the same as chado, or meditation, or whatever. Very good too. If it is enlightening, more power to ya. It's the disconnect that is the problem for many...

Enough rambling. And I'm probably not saying anything new here, so... back to swinging my Subarito and doing a few things Dan H taught. Startin' to feel more there... That's good. That's what I'm after. Whatever *that* is.
Actually Keith that would go a long way to maybe explain why aikido has gone this way and you are not blathering, but making interesting points......
I would like to suggest that if people want to be "aikibunnies" then maybe they should call there practice "Health, harmony & grace derived from the martial art of aikido" It might be the trick? Much like tai chi for health..... Now there's a thing.....
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Old 12-12-2010, 02:19 PM   #340
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
He seemed to be more worried about his own development...
If I were to hazard a guess at what makes a person good at anything, this would be it. When it comes to learning/teaching, my view has become that a good teachers has a harder time teaching a terrible student than a good student has learning from a terrible teacher.
Also:
Thanks Maggie! Good points!

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-12-2010 at 02:25 PM.

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Old 12-12-2010, 02:29 PM   #341
RED
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
If I were to hazard a guess at what makes a person good at anything, this would be it. When it comes to learning/teaching, my view has become that a good teachers has a harder time teaching a terrible student than a good student has learning from a terrible teacher.
Also:
Thanks Maggie! Good points!
A good student loves to learn. You can't keep some one who loves to learn from learning. A good student, for that reason, is the undoing of a bad teacher.

MM
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Old 12-12-2010, 03:11 PM   #342
Keith Larman
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Actually Keith that would go a long way to maybe explain why aikido has gone this way and you are not blathering, but making interesting points......
I would like to suggest that if people want to be "aikibunnies" then maybe they should call there practice "Health, harmony & grace derived from the martial art of aikido" It might be the trick? Much like tai chi for health..... Now there's a thing.....
I think what you'll find is that most of them will say that what they are doing was derived from the martial art of aikibudo or aikijutsu and is for health, harmony and grace first and foremost. With the ultimate goal being some degree of martial integrity. Although it is an open question whether that is actually a realistic approach. I do think they sincerely believe they are doing Aikido as it was taught to them. And I find it fascinating how varied the impressions are today.

So many hesitate to call aikido itself a martial art given the understanding they have of the larger philosophical scheme of Ueshiba Morihei. Of course we can also argue that maybe they simply don't understand the philosophy and never did. But I see it as being far from a "given" one way or the other. It all depends on who you followed, how you understood them, and the "lenses" through which you experienced it. I've seen Chiba and frankly I find some his stuff to be overtly brutal. Not what I want to do. But I've also seen him do some amazingly powerful stuff. So here we get into separating the intent behind the waza and the waza itself.

In the end all I know is why I got into Aikido. I wanted to develop grace, health and harmony as a by product of my practice of a martial art. Meaning if it doesn't work, what the hell is the point? But that is me... And while I may not have any desire to practice the way some do, I fully understand their desire to do it their way. The deeper question of a "true" ontology of Aikido is of great interest to me, but I accept there is quite a variety out there today. Suffice to say I think what I'm doing is the "real deal" of course. As most everyone else does as well. Unfortunately, logically, not everyone can be right if we assume there is a "correct" version of aikido. But maybe that assumption itself rests on a series of more primary assumptions. So we come back to where we start.

So... Train hard, train sincerely, and never stop questioning.

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Old 12-12-2010, 04:14 PM   #343
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I think what you'll find is that most of them will say that what they are doing was derived from the martial art of aikibudo or aikijutsu and is for health, harmony and grace first and foremost. With the ultimate goal being some degree of martial integrity. Although it is an open question whether that is actually a realistic approach. I do think they sincerely believe they are doing Aikido as it was taught to them. And I find it fascinating how varied the impressions are today.

So many hesitate to call aikido itself a martial art given the understanding they have of the larger philosophical scheme of Ueshiba Morihei. Of course we can also argue that maybe they simply don't understand the philosophy and never did. But I see it as being far from a "given" one way or the other. It all depends on who you followed, how you understood them, and the "lenses" through which you experienced it. I've seen Chiba and frankly I find some his stuff to be overtly brutal. Not what I want to do. But I've also seen him do some amazingly powerful stuff. So here we get into separating the intent behind the waza and the waza itself.

In the end all I know is why I got into Aikido. I wanted to develop grace, health and harmony as a by product of my practice of a martial art. Meaning if it doesn't work, what the hell is the point? But that is me... And while I may not have any desire to practice the way some do, I fully understand their desire to do it their way. The deeper question of a "true" ontology of Aikido is of great interest to me, but I accept there is quite a variety out there today. Suffice to say I think what I'm doing is the "real deal" of course. As most everyone else does as well. Unfortunately, logically, not everyone can be right if we assume there is a "correct" version of aikido. But maybe that assumption itself rests on a series of more primary assumptions. So we come back to where we start.

So... Train hard, train sincerely, and never stop questioning.
So it seems my suggestion is a way that could be entertained?
To say that Chiba Sensei's aikido has been "overtly brutal" I would disagree with, because if that is the case, then I am guilty of the same thing...!! I do not think it was intentional, nor done in the sense of hurting anyone to kill or maim, as that would be ridiculous to even think of entertaining!! But I have found that it does "wake" people up that are not paying attention to their protection, which martial arts were and are intentionally designed for.....
I suspect that Ueshiba sensei probably did not intend his martial art become empty and a paper tiger.... That is evident in how it was passed onto the last deshi other than Tohei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba. I believe had K. Ueshiba, had he been given a choice other than "duty & obligation" he would rather have live in a house at the top of the hill and be a 9 - 5 er...... Now where did I read that? A.J. I believe....
Now when we look at Morihiro Saito sensei and what he has passed on would suggest that Proff Ueshiba did want aikido to be a martial art and no less.....
So to say that health and harmony are foremost, is to my way of thinking incorrect, so I am afraid I will have to disagree with you..... But that's our choice is it not?
I think it important that anyone coming into aikido should have the truth given to them at the onset, by which ever dojo they attend...I make it clear to people that what I do/teach does have a modicum of risk involved as with any contact art or activity....And is effective for Self Defence..... Many of my old students have been doormen and have found it very useful..... so to me I have done my business correctly and am not involved with chanting, burning incense, ringing bells and pretending or deluding myself that I have some mystical power!!
I can tell you now I bleed and bruise just like the rest of you..... and absolutely do not have mystical powers other than the understanding of aiki......... do

As for the real deal you will only find that out when you have been truly challenged.......

Kind Regards

Tony

Train well and for real.....

Tony

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 12-12-2010 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 12-12-2010, 04:29 PM   #344
Keith Larman
Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Mr. Wagstaffe

Actually I do not really disagree on most of what you wrote. First and foremost I think Aikido should be a viable martial art. I think some of the ancillary benefits are health, harmony, etc. to doing it correctly. But I also think first and foremost... Martial art.

WRT to Chiba sensei -- well, I've not felt his technique first hand so I'd probably best just let that go and allow others with more direct experience comment instead.

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Old 12-12-2010, 04:50 PM   #345
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
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England
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Keith Larman
WRT to Chiba sensei -- well, I've not felt his technique first hand so I'd probably best just let that go and allow others with more direct experience comment instead.


I first met Chiba Sensei when he arrived in the UK in 1966 at the invitation of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei....In 1967 I ended my long association with the " Hut Dojo" and joined with Chiba Sensei. This was a time when Sensei was at his peak, I would add that he was no harder or ```brutal``` than any of the other Japanese masters before him. There are other members on this forum who have had a long relationship with Chiba Sensei, Joe Curren and Phillip Smith. I am sure that they would both agree with me that Chiba Sensei was intent on teaching Aikido as a martial art...Of course if a student isn't up to that type of training then find something more suitable,,
The only time I have ever know anyone get hurt by Sensei was if they were dopey enough to resist..If only students would value what Chiba Sensei has on offer as one of the last of the true AikiKai teachers.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-12-2010, 05:06 PM   #346
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Mr. Wagstaffe

Actually I do not really disagree on most of what you wrote. First and foremost I think Aikido should be a viable martial art. I think some of the ancillary benefits are health, harmony, etc. to doing it correctly. But I also think first and foremost... Martial art.

WRT to Chiba sensei -- well, I've not felt his technique first hand so I'd probably best just let that go and allow others with more direct experience comment instead.
Please call me Tony, I'm not the taxman as my name would imply....Wagstaffe means officious, he was the taxman of old in days of yor, when only a staffe would make sure that people pay their taxes, hence he wagged it around a lot.....
Strange really, I actually prefer the jo to the bokken and sword.....
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:40 AM   #347
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Tony

One other thing that Chiba Sensei said, was, ""these people call their clubs martial arts clubs, in reality they are no more than social clubs """.............................................

This is better than the toes, it is one of my favourites :-)

From the old " Aikido Today Magazine "

I am a carpenter, I was working in a large house with a very large staircase with landings approaching from both sides.
I saw the small child of the owner approaching from the opposite landing, I feared he would fall down the stairs, I did not have time to reach him, so I SHOUTED and projected my " Ki" through the childs head and out the other side, he fell on the floor crying out loudly, the mother rushed to see what had happened, I explained what I had done, she thanked me, I replied ( wait for this one )
"" Don't thank me, thank Aikido ""

The kid was in his own home, he probably knew exacttly what he was doing until that prat screamed at him and his Ki made the kid sh!t himself..........That child may well be disturbed to this very day...

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
Henry,

Just had another thought, Oh deary me!! I'm out doing myself here..... Maybe this carpenter thought he was somebody else?

After all one of the most famous persons in unrecorded history was a carpenter....

Cor blimey!! Now that is delusion........

Tony
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:49 AM   #348
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Henry,

Just had another thought, Oh deary me!! I'm out doing myself here..... Maybe this carpenter thought he was somebody else?

After all one of the most famous persons in unrecorded history was a carpenter....

Cor blimey!! Now that is delusion........

Tony
You may well be right, if he reads this he will be `cross with you

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-13-2010, 06:53 PM   #349
ravenest
Dojo: Way of Falling Water
Location: NSW
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Australia
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Well, for an 'old dead boring' thread I've found this most interesting.

Tony, I can sympathize a LOT with several of your posts.

I started training a long time ago. The aikikai instructors then were great, solid, it didnt matter that I had years of karate training under my belt, actually an advantage.

Then I go to another club and apparently I'm doing it all wrong, not receiving the technique right. [In my opinion the only 'right' way to recieve a technique is by trying to assure the saftey and respect of both doing the exercise - so breakfall or roll out right! - and in a way that allows quick recovery or counter.]

Sometimes I stop at the beginning of a technique and my partner throws himself through the air ????? Well, if he's gonna do that he should twist his own wrist and tap out.

Then Dave Brown appears on the scene (thank goodness!). To put it briefly, he cleans everyone up. Now people, including some instructors seem a bit devastated that their aikido isnt much good or realistic compared to his. Fortunately he has a high grading so people give it validity.

Then I'm being shown a 'new' way to do the techniques that are a lot more real and quiet devastating. The normal instructor takes me aside in later sessions and carefully instructs me to do the old techniques in a new way (like I did before) as Dave showed him, BUT not other people, so now I'm doing this, the others are doing bunny dance ... that instructor has left and now .... ?

I'm seriously wondering how I can continue.

Here is some more. Years ago I held some classes, a woman turns up and puts a green belt on (???), she seems startled at normal simple aikido techniques then asks to do some of 'hers' ..."Grab my wrist," I do, she jerks her wrist and looks at me, "Well."
"Well what?"
"Roll"
'Wha?"
"An aikido techniques consists of two parts" she lectures me, " I do a technique and you roll."
"No," I said, "I attack, you do a technique and throw me and I roll so I dont break my neck."
She looked scared and left.

At another school I finished training, we sit down, close eyes, meditate. Good! Teacher starts saying something. I'm used to this as at this stage a past instructor would read out the memoirs of O'Sensai.

I listen ... wait a minute! Thats not the writings of a Taoists/Shinto, I listen carefully ... a prayer that ends with, in the name Jesus Christ, Amen.
All the students say "Amen" and then cross them selves, formal bow, end of class.
WTF???!

Its NOT just aikido this type of degredation... this is happened in MOST areas I have observed ... tis a symptom of our modern society I guess?
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:23 PM   #350
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Michael Wilson wrote: View Post
Well, for an 'old dead boring' thread I've found this most interesting.

Tony, I can sympathize a LOT with several of your posts.

I started training a long time ago. The aikikai instructors then were great, solid, it didnt matter that I had years of karate training under my belt, actually an advantage.

Then I go to another club and apparently I'm doing it all wrong, not receiving the technique right. [In my opinion the only 'right' way to recieve a technique is by trying to assure the saftey and respect of both doing the exercise - so breakfall or roll out right! - and in a way that allows quick recovery or counter.]

Sometimes I stop at the beginning of a technique and my partner throws himself through the air ????? Well, if he's gonna do that he should twist his own wrist and tap out.

Then Dave Brown appears on the scene (thank goodness!). To put it briefly, he cleans everyone up. Now people, including some instructors seem a bit devastated that their aikido isnt much good or realistic compared to his. Fortunately he has a high grading so people give it validity.

Then I'm being shown a 'new' way to do the techniques that are a lot more real and quiet devastating. The normal instructor takes me aside in later sessions and carefully instructs me to do the old techniques in a new way (like I did before) as Dave showed him, BUT not other people, so now I'm doing this, the others are doing bunny dance ... that instructor has left and now .... ?

I'm seriously wondering how I can continue.

Here is some more. Years ago I held some classes, a woman turns up and puts a green belt on (???), she seems startled at normal simple aikido techniques then asks to do some of 'hers' ..."Grab my wrist," I do, she jerks her wrist and looks at me, "Well."
"Well what?"
"Roll"
'Wha?"
"An aikido techniques consists of two parts" she lectures me, " I do a technique and you roll."
"No," I said, "I attack, you do a technique and throw me and I roll so I dont break my neck."
She looked scared and left.

At another school I finished training, we sit down, close eyes, meditate. Good! Teacher starts saying something. I'm used to this as at this stage a past instructor would read out the memoirs of O'Sensai.

I listen ... wait a minute! Thats not the writings of a Taoists/Shinto, I listen carefully ... a prayer that ends with, in the name Jesus Christ, Amen.
All the students say "Amen" and then cross them selves, formal bow, end of class.
WTF???!

Its NOT just aikido this type of degredation... this is happened in MOST areas I have observed ... tis a symptom of our modern society I guess?
I believe you have a valid points there Michael.... for years I found that T/S aikido was criticised and frowned upon because of it's competitive element, even amongst those that practised it!! Saying that kyogi shiai and tanto randori shiai it's not real, it's sports.... Well yes it's true and of course it is, but how else does one test their technique under stress in the modern sense, bearing in mind litigation and the pitfalls that involves? Short of using real blades it would be absolutely ridiculous!! That is why we have the Goshin kata's to practice safely that which can't be done otherwise.... I have used real blades in demo's and people thought, oh my god someone's going to get killed!! Well maybe, (if you are stupid about it) but that is the closest you can do under the "rules" so to speak.... Two people that have practised a kata over and over again can make it look almost real......Ask Henry Ellis Sensei he will tell you an interesting story of a demo he once performed in front of some VIP's....
Bloody common sense if you ask me!!

Oh yes the " o senseis" are many fold, have met them and discarded them in short thrift and B******s if they don't like the way I don't harmonise with their delusional "ki"

As for the bunnies they don't come to our dojo (When I had one, hopefully soon to be restarted) and they know why!!
We have had a few wander in here and there and have left early once things got warmed up..... I wonder why?
Society today is getting fatter and lazier, that's the real problem I guess.... Actually I know!! I see it every day..... We are surrounded by them!!.....

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 12-13-2010 at 08:36 PM.
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