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Old 12-09-2010, 03:13 PM   #301
mickeygelum
 
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Yes indeed, the beauty of the internet, where you can quickly find the meaning of phrases like "ad hominem".
Oh Mary,

Why is it when some one disagrees with you it becomes a personal attack?

Truthfully, there is an air of indifference to your perspective, you are just too spiteful, negative and demeaning.

Get over it!
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Old 12-09-2010, 08:17 PM   #302
CNYMike
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Sadly, not enough from other M.A.
I haven't run into ridicule from people I train with in other MA, so maybe it's where I am.

Quote:
....If it was'ny for people like Henry Ellis Sensei, It would be dying that much faster.....
"Dying"? With a million people worldwide doing it -- tens of thousands of them logging into this web site -- and Aikido books in the book stores, including Dynamic Aikido which has been published since the 1960s, I'd hardly call it "dying."

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 12-09-2010, 09:19 PM   #303
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
I haven't run into ridicule from people I train with in other MA, so maybe it's where I am.

"Dying"? With a million people worldwide doing it -- tens of thousands of them logging into this web site -- and Aikido books in the book stores, including Dynamic Aikido which has been published since the 1960s, I'd hardly call it "dying."
Are there a million actually practising "aikido" I doubt it, and as for books, never bought any until I was at it at least 5 years..... was more interested in the doing than the reading..... Maybe that's the trouble? Too much philosophy to digest instead of where it's at? Your telling me.... Doesn't compare to Karate, Judo, TKD, MMA now does it....?
Yes, there are rumbles at last.... But it takes people like Rick Ellis to walk the walk, and speak his mind. There is aikido in some small pockets that yes is excellent, but it is sadly in the minority.... Maybe things are a changing, lets hope they are.....
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:25 AM   #304
aikilouis
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
There is aikido in some small pockets that yes is excellent, but it is sadly in the minority
I guess you include yourself in the lot.

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Old 12-10-2010, 06:39 AM   #305
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
I guess you include yourself in the lot.
Maybe Sensei Wagstaffe is too modest to include himself in that " lot " ............with his long history and background I will add his name to that " lot ".

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:24 AM   #306
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Maybe Sensei Wagstaffe is too modest to include himself in that " lot " ............with his long history and background I will add his name to that " lot ".

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Please Sensei, I'm just a nobody who loves aiki and wants to see it return mentally and physically to it's roots....
You honour me......

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 12-10-2010 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:52 AM   #307
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Who cares about the haters? Not me! I love Aikido. I just did some sword work and now can hardly wait for class tomorrow.
Mary
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:14 PM   #308
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Who cares about the haters? Not me! I love Aikido. I just did some sword work and now can hardly wait for class tomorrow.
Mary
And I bet you look just fine with your hand on hip...... .

Did my 500 suburi this morning... a bit damp but got nice and warm for work.....
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:32 PM   #309
Hellis
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Please Sensei, I'm just a nobody who loves aiki and wants to see it return mentally and physically to it's roots....
You honour me......
Now you are being modest :-)

I believe we first met almost 50 years ago ???? That is a long time ...

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:37 PM   #310
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Now you are being modest :-)

I believe we first met almost 50 years ago ???? That is a long time ...

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
Actually Sensei it was in 1976 or 7or 8 ?.... You visited the Winchester Judo & Martial Arts club at the Lido Sports Centre and was cordially invited to take the class, as our Instructor, Bob Forrest Webb was held up or something? Anyway the highest grade who was leading the class invited you on and we had a great session....
I remember it well because Derek Eastman, your side kick, threw me with an excellent kotegaeshi from a shomen uchi bokken attack, which I didn't hold back on in the least!! He executed it without effort and smoothness and I was unable to resist it....
You don't know it but I have sent and advised people to attend your group on many occasion, who have asked me where they could find Traditional aikido as they were not interested in the competitive style that we practice, which is entirely their choice. I have no problems with that as I believe that all good aikido will flourish whatever style it is.....
Thanks for a bloody good session!!

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 12-10-2010 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:15 PM   #311
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
And I bet you look just fine with your hand on hip...... .

Did my 500 suburi this morning... a bit damp but got nice and warm for work.....
I don't see how this is funny, Tony...what do you mean?
Mary
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Old 12-10-2010, 04:14 PM   #312
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I don't see how this is funny, Tony...what do you mean?
Mary
Don't worry about it Mary..... Just my quirky sense of humour when I think of women swinging bokken and how unfeminine it looks.... It would look so much better done with one hand on the hip.....

Hope you managed your 500 too ....
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Old 12-10-2010, 04:34 PM   #313
Hellis
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Don't worry about it Mary..... Just my quirky sense of humour when I think of women swinging bokken and how unfeminine it looks.... It would look so much better done with one hand on the hip.....

Hope you managed your 500 too ....
You are a braver man than I Gunga Din

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:46 PM   #314
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
You are a braver man than I Gunga Din

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
Am I ? Or naive? Or maybe both?.....
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Old 12-10-2010, 09:02 PM   #315
CNYMike
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Are there a million actually practising "aikido" I doubt it ....
You're half right. In a 2004 DVD, Moriteryu Ueshiba Doshu said there were 1.6 million people practicing Aikido in 86 countries. "Actually there are more people and more countries," he added, "but those are the registered one." I don't know if that's the grand total or just the people tied to Hombu, and things have changed in the past 6 years. But if there are between 1.5 million and 2 million people practicing Aikido, then it is very hard to say the art is "dying." Nope, not 1 million - more than that!

Quote:
....and as for books, never bought any until I was at it at least 5 years..... was more interested in the doing than the reading..... Maybe that's the trouble? Too much philosophy to digest instead of where it's at? .....
Most of the books are technical manuals, not philosophiocal tracts. I've found the Best Aikido books to be a good resource when I want to double-check something. Most book stores seem to have a decent selection of Aikido books in their martial arts section. Again, hardly a sign the art is "dying."

Quote:
.....Your telling me.... Doesn't compare to Karate, Judo, TKD, MMA now does it....?
I've been doing karate for 25 years, and my karate sensei knows the aikido teacher I train under. Again, I have not had any ridicule.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 12-10-2010, 09:44 PM   #316
mickeygelum
 
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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if there are between 1.5 million and 2 million people practicing Aikido, then it is very hard to say the art is "dying." Nope, not 1 million - more than that!
Yeah, Tony.......and at 5 quid a pelt, that's a hell of a lot of money!
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Old 12-10-2010, 10:27 PM   #317
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
You're half right. In a 2004 DVD, Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu said there were 1.6 million people practicing Aikido in 86 countries. "Actually there are more people and more countries," he added, "but those are the registered one." I don't know if that's the grand total or just the people tied to Hombu, and things have changed in the past 6 years. But if there are between 1.5 million and 2 million people practicing Aikido, then it is very hard to say the art is "dying." Nope, not 1 million - more than that!
This is very interesting. Do you have more details of the DVD? The Aikikai maintain a database of yudansha, that is to say, records of to whom and when each dan rank was awarded and by whom. However, this does not mean that all the yudansha are actually training, are regular members of a dojo or an organization, or are even alive. It is simply a record of when each dan was given, so anyone can check the lineage of any yudansha who claims to be affiliated to the Aikikai Hombu.

However, I would be very surprised indeed if the Aikikai has any record of mudansha in each country. There are two reasons for this. First, in the vast majority of dojos and organizations, kyu grades are an internal affair, and it is only with shodan that practitioners are registered with the Aikikai and receive a yudansha card with the number of the dan awarded. My own dojo registers members with the Aikikai from 5th kyu, but this is an exception, even in Japan. The second reason is that records of mudansha tend to be sketchy, mainly because of the drop-out rate. So we register each member of the dojo for insurance purposes and for kyu examinations, but even so, quite a few members have to be considered as having given up, because they no longer appear. So the records we keep are not an accurate record of who is actually training reguarly in the dojo. I suspect that this is true for many other dojos.

So, I suspect that Doshu's figure of 1.6 million was an estimate, but I also suspect that it was a wild guess, simply because the hard evidence on which to base a reliable figure does not exist.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:23 AM   #318
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
You're half right. In a 2004 DVD, Moriteryu Ueshiba Doshu said there were 1.6 million people practicing Aikido in 86 countries. "Actually there are more people and more countries," he added, "but those are the registered one." I don't know if that's the grand total or just the people tied to Hombu, and things have changed in the past 6 years. But if there are between 1.5 million and 2 million people practicing Aikido, then it is very hard to say the art is "dying." Nope, not 1 million - more than that!

Most of the books are technical manuals, not philosophiocal tracts. I've found the Best Aikido books to be a good resource when I want to double-check something. Most book stores seem to have a decent selection of Aikido books in their martial arts section. Again, hardly a sign the art is "dying."

I've been doing karate for 25 years, and my karate sensei knows the aikido teacher I train under. Again, I have not had any ridicule.
Aha! Technical manuals, now there's a thing, always found it awkward to do waza while holding a techi manual, seemed to tie myself up in knots..... but there you go... I always say good teacher, don't need a manual.... But when you've been at it a few years, for reference's and comparison is fine.....
When I bought the first one, Yes It was Gozo Shioda's Dynamic Aikido, I was a bit disappointed as I was instantly aware that it was nothing new, I had already been doing it!!!! But have kept it from an historical point of view and you never know might be worth something one day........ Kesara

I'll be quite frank and say that I don't have a clue as to how many practice "aikido" and I mean practice, not dance, with ribbons bells and little sticks, but that's just a matter of opinion, and when I say dying........
I mean the ekkythump stuff that I've been used to for the last, 'ang on a minute.... oh yeah 35 years of aiki, a few years before that judo, amateur boxing, wing chun and a smattering of Goju Ryu.

Maybe that's what I'm worried about..... That aikido will change for the worse instead of the better, maybe I shouldn't fret as I'm happy doing what I've done and will keep doing till I can't anymore.....

All those who want to play with ribbons and do the cha cha please carry on as quite honestly I don't give a toss..... Well actually that ain't true, otherwise I wouldn't be here taking the proverbial would I now.......

PS I forgot to add my experiences whilst in Her Majesties Service as a matelot, and the naughty amount of ding dongs, I was involved with whether I liked it or not..... Hence why I'm not so pretty anymore......

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 12-11-2010 at 05:29 AM.
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:37 AM   #319
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Yeah, Tony.......and at 5 quid a pelt, that's a hell of a lot of money!
Sssssh or you'll scare them all away!!!
Nearly had one in my sights......
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:04 PM   #320
CNYMike
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
.... I'll be quite frank and say that I don't have a clue as to how many practice "aikido" and I mean practice, not dance, with ribbons bells and little sticks, but that's just a matter of opinion, and when I say dying........
I mean the ekkythump stuff that I've been used to for the last, 'ang on a minute.... oh yeah 35 years of aiki, a few years before that judo, amateur boxing, wing chun and a smattering of Goju Ryu.
When I say "dying" I mean the population practicing it has dwindled to a handful of individuals, maybe less than a dozen, who aren't teaching it or haven't produced someone who can. That's not the case with Aikido, even if it is difficult to pin down exactly how many people who are doing it. The other issues are for another zombie thread. I think it's a little over the top to say something is "dying" because it's not to your liking, but in terms of the raw numbers, no.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:06 PM   #321
CNYMike
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
This is very interesting. Do you have more details of the DVD? .....
It's the DVD for New York Aikikai's 40th anniversary summer camp.

Quote:
.... I suspect that Doshu's figure of 1.6 million was an estimate .....
Probably, but even if you can't pin down the exact number at this moment, there are enough people doing it you can not, IMHO, say it's "dying."

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:05 PM   #322
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Wagstaffe Sensei should have said, " Good Aikido is dying", not, "Aikido is dying".

Just because someone says they are doing Aikido, does not make it true.

There are plenty of "Snake Oil Senseis" out there. To the inexperienced and naive, dojo dancing appears to qualify some of these folks as competent martial artists. When in fact, any second rate pugilist, first year karateka or streetlife hardened survivor would take their prized "so-and-so black belt" and shove it up their ass.

There are far too many bad examples out there, and unfortunately they are the majority.

You said the Doshu is the reference for your Aikido,in my opinion, he is not that good....he inherited the title.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:07 PM   #323
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Wagstaffe Sensei should have said, " Good Aikido is dying", not, "Aikido is dying".

Just because someone says they are doing Aikido, does not make it true.

There are plenty of "Snake Oil Senseis" out there. To the inexperienced and naive, dojo dancing appears to qualify some of these folks as competent martial artists. When in fact, any second rate pugilist, first year karateka or streetlife hardened survivor would take their prized "so-and-so black belt" and shove it up their ass.

There are far too many bad examples out there, and unfortunately they are the majority.

You said the Doshu is the reference for your Aikido,in my opinion, he is not that good....he inherited the title.

Train well,

Mickey
As a play on words, then yes I'll rephrase .....Aikido as a "martial art" is dying.... But not in some quarters.....
To my way of thinking, martial arts are about self defence. That is why I practice a martial art to be able to defend myself in times of need. The by product is robust health, not learn to dance, do ballet, play hop skip and jump, with ribbons, bells, and music and delude myself with feel good endorphins.....
The dreamers, "martial arts philosophisers" and con artists are a plenty, but martial artists are becoming rare.....
Does that suffice?

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 12-11-2010 at 09:12 PM. Reason: errors
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Old 12-11-2010, 10:47 PM   #324
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Oh Mary,

Why is it when some one disagrees with you it becomes a personal attack?

Truthfully, there is an air of indifference to your perspective, you are just too spiteful, negative and demeaning.
Wow, you just broke my irony meter.

*plonk*
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Old 12-11-2010, 11:23 PM   #325
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

"The Truth will set you free"...
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