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Old 11-27-2010, 03:23 AM   #51
sakumeikan
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
That's what you want the attacker to think. Yet, when he sees your calm, empty face, he will have subconscious doubts that will weaken his ability to attack.

Exactly. And I think you have to be centered and still within, upright and steady, to be able to act freely.

Mochizuki Sensei had plenty of criticism of modern judo and he felt that the introduction of weight classes and entry to the Olympics pretty well destroyed the meaning of the art. So we have to look way back to Mifune to see the kind of judo Mochizuki Sensei promoted. Of course, Kenshiro Abbe was a judo man, as well, wasn't he? I'm sure he was exemplary of that same spirit and technique.

Great beginning. I think we now see eye-to-eye.

Best to you.

David
Dear David,
I consider Kenshiro Abbe 8th Dan , Founder of Kyu Shin Do possibly one if not the greatest Budo master ever.He was not a big man but his aikido/judo skills were /are legendary.Sad to say he is only remenbered here in the U,K by people such as Henry Ellis/Derek Eastman , Bob Thomas, and some old time Judo/Aikidoka.I once participated in an event with Abbe Sensei where Abbe Sensei took on a long line of Dan grades in Judo , some tough guys, and bounced all with a variety of waza within minutes and without breaking sweat.
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Old 11-27-2010, 04:37 AM   #52
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Hi Joe & David,

Interesting discussion about how tori should appear prior to uke's attack

In my experience, I find that if tori does not leave an opening, then uke has no reason to attack. He attacks because he is told to do so by Sensei, and so his attack tends to lack focus, direction and intent (and therefore power).

Having a strong defensive posture which allows no openings is appropriate for boxing or wrestling, but I'm not so sure this applies to Aikido. Even in Judo one must feint an opening to allow the opponent to commit his energy to you, and allow you to throw him..

Perhaps this is the true reason why people complain about uke not attacking them 'properly'?

I find the worst offences tend to occur during weapons partner practise - uke is told to attack tori a certain way, while tori has the attacking area covered by his bokken or jo. Why should uke attack?

I learned from Haydn Foster Sensei (another of Abbe Sensei's first students) to 'invite' uke to attack by leaving an opening, so I agree with David that standing in a normal, upright and non-threatening posture with the chest open is the best way to achieve this. Being relaxed also allows one to respond with far greater speed

Apologies if this has drifted off the original subject a bit!

Ruth
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Old 11-27-2010, 06:02 AM   #53
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
Ruth Rae wrote: View Post
Hi Joe & David,

Interesting discussion about how tori should appear prior to uke's attack

In my experience, I find that if tori does not leave an opening, then uke has no reason to attack. He attacks because he is told to do so by Sensei, and so his attack tends to lack focus, direction and intent (and therefore power).

Having a strong defensive posture which allows no openings is appropriate for boxing or wrestling, but I'm not so sure this applies to Aikido. Even in Judo one must feint an opening to allow the opponent to commit his energy to you, and allow you to throw him..

Perhaps this is the true reason why people complain about uke not attacking them 'properly'?

I find the worst offences tend to occur during weapons partner practise - uke is told to attack tori a certain way, while tori has the attacking area covered by his bokken or jo. Why should uke attack?

I learned from Haydn Foster Sensei (another of Abbe Sensei's first students) to 'invite' uke to attack by leaving an opening, so I agree with David that standing in a normal, upright and non-threatening posture with the chest open is the best way to achieve this. Being relaxed also allows one to respond with far greater speed

Apologies if this has drifted off the original subject a bit!

Ruth
Dear Ruth,
Thanks for your input.Mr Foster is a good friend of mine.
We both go back a long way.
To follow up from your points no would be attacker launch an attack against anyone who shows no openings[mental /physical ].Any tori who understands the way to lead a persons mind/body will momentarily leave an opening then by doing so uke will attack.Having 'lured' the attacker into a position which tori has already ascertained before the attack was launched, it becomes easy for tori to take action against the uke.This is Ki Musubi at work.True masters of this aspect of Aikido , utilising the concept of Path Of an Echo already 'know ' what uke is planning to do .
This training of Ki Musubi /Path of an Echo is very subtle and in my view pretty difficult to acquire , even after years of training.
If you study or investigate articles related to late Sekiya Sensei [Chiba Sensei 's father in law] you get an insight into the concept .
Posture in itself is not the full answer .Ones mental attitude has to come into the equation.In fact the mental aspect may well be more important than how well you stand.
Winning without fighting or without direct conflict with the opponent is without doubt the best method to resolve physical or any other conflict.
As far as Judo is concerned this idea of deliberately leaving an opening is normal.A bit like Chess with muscles.
Best Wishes, Joe.
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Old 11-27-2010, 11:42 AM   #54
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Poor posture may well be easy to spot in lower ranks but Chicko is claiming to observe poor p[osture within the Shihan level .While I havent met all of the 7th Dan Shihan over a 40 year plus of Aikido training with Aikikai Shihan[I wont bore you with names suffice to say these were/are reputable teachers] I must say I saw no evidence which supports Chickos assertion that bad posture is prevalent amongst 7th dan Shihan.
Oh, I agree. My point was that posture is so fundamental that even a shihan is unlikely to be able to get away with postural defects, provided his ukes are reasonably skilled and attacking sincerely.

Katherine
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Old 11-27-2010, 11:51 AM   #55
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

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The fact is, if you're not standing stock-still and absolutely upright when the attack comes, you're telegraphing your intent and seriously limiting your options for movement, making yourself vulnerable to a feint: you're so committed to moving in a certain way that if uke doesn't follow through with the attack, you can't help continuing with your own move, and then he can clock you.
Seriously? Have you ever watched boxers? MMA guys? They bounce all over the place.

In my own training, standing still when the attack comes is beginner level. At more advanced levels, the idea is to move after the attacker is committed, but before he actually reaches you with all his power. Certainly moving too soon is bad, but so is moving too late.

Katherine
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Old 11-27-2010, 01:39 PM   #56
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Nothing a few months of intense isometrics won't sort out!!!!
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Old 11-27-2010, 02:22 PM   #57
David Orange
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear David,
I consider Kenshiro Abbe 8th Dan , Founder of Kyu Shin Do possibly one if not the greatest Budo master ever.He was not a big man but his aikido/judo skills were /are legendary.Sad to say he is only remenbered here in the U,K by people such as Henry Ellis/Derek Eastman , Bob Thomas, and some old time Judo/Aikidoka.I once participated in an event with Abbe Sensei where Abbe Sensei took on a long line of Dan grades in Judo , some tough guys, and bounced all with a variety of waza within minutes and without breaking sweat.
All those little Japanese guys who came to the West and stayed a long time, taking on all comers were phenomenal. Thanks to the fellows you mention above, such names as Kenshiro Abbe have gained broad fame. It's a great legacy you gentlemen hold.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-27-2010, 02:31 PM   #58
David Orange
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

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Ruth Rae wrote: View Post
Having a strong defensive posture which allows no openings is appropriate for boxing or wrestling, but I'm not so sure this applies to Aikido.
Any stance we take sends a message to the attacker and can be interpreted by witnesses as your threatening the other guy, forcing him to attack. But if you stand completely open, showing no threat, no defense and complete openness, any witness would have to say that you were "just standing there" when the other guy attacked.

Also, "taking a stance" is part of the transaction of escalating opposition into conflict. He postures at you, he expects you to posture back at him, which is what you do if you take any kind of stance. Also, it gives him a clue as to what you will do.

Standing upright without moving shows the opponent many openings, but gives no clue. He postures at you, but when you don't posture back at him, it's like he's dropped a rock into a well and heard no splash at the bottom. This affects his mental state at least subconsciously, which is probably more desirable than his consciously noticing that he heard no bottom.

Quote:
Ruth Rae wrote: View Post
I find the worst offences tend to occur during weapons partner practise - uke is told to attack tori a certain way, while tori has the attacking area covered by his bokken or jo. Why should uke attack?
Exactly.

Quote:
Ruth Rae wrote: View Post
I learned from Haydn Foster Sensei (another of Abbe Sensei's first students) to 'invite' uke to attack by leaving an opening, so I agree with David that standing in a normal, upright and non-threatening posture with the chest open is the best way to achieve this. Being relaxed also allows one to respond with far greater speed
Great points.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-27-2010, 02:41 PM   #59
David Orange
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Seriously? Have you ever watched boxers? MMA guys? They bounce all over the place.
Yeah. Those are not aikido. They are not designed to complement the Japanese sword.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
In my own training, standing still when the attack comes is beginner level. At more advanced levels, the idea is to move after the attacker is committed, but before he actually reaches you with all his power. Certainly moving too soon is bad, but so is moving too late.
Yeah. See Joe Curran's post #48.

If you can't first master standing and giving no clue of your intentions, you can't effectively lead the attacker's movement with your own movement and you can't properly intercept/neutralize his movement.

In the roots of yoseikan teaching in the US, we had the concept that the attacker first locks his mind onto the target, then his ki follows the mind. Then his body attacks the target. We learned to move in the instant between his "locking on" with his ki but before following with his body. Our movement blended with his movement and turned his body sharply, effectively separating his body from his ki, and giving his mind a completely new perspective to figure out before he can re-coordinate his ki with his new physical position, though we would throw him before that could happen. But you first had to give him a perfect target so that he could commit fully and attack with confidence. He can't do that if you're bouncing around.

Think of it this way: if you stand completely still, the attacker must attack you exactly there and nowhere else. But when he attacks, you are somewhere else.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-27-2010, 06:11 PM   #60
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Think of it this way: if you stand completely still, the attacker must attack you exactly there and nowhere else. But when he attacks, you are somewhere else.
Neat way of articulating your point of view. Sold! ...Until someone does a better job (imo, obviously) on any opposing perspective.
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Old 11-27-2010, 07:26 PM   #61
kewms
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
In the roots of yoseikan teaching in the US, we had the concept that the attacker first locks his mind onto the target, then his ki follows the mind. Then his body attacks the target. We learned to move in the instant between his "locking on" with his ki but before following with his body. Our movement blended with his movement and turned his body sharply, effectively separating his body from his ki, and giving his mind a completely new perspective to figure out before he can re-coordinate his ki with his new physical position, though we would throw him before that could happen. But you first had to give him a perfect target so that he could commit fully and attack with confidence. He can't do that if you're bouncing around.

Think of it this way: if you stand completely still, the attacker must attack you exactly there and nowhere else. But when he attacks, you are somewhere else.
Ok, sure. Different phrasing, but the same thing we do. Never mind.

Katherine
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Old 11-27-2010, 07:29 PM   #62
Janet Rosen
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

I think a lot of this is situational and depends on what is being taught in a given class and why.
We teach newbies to offer the opening appropriate for the called upon attack, for instance one shoulder slightly ahead in hamni for uke to grab in katatori, and if they are new to martial arts investigate the relative distances and merits/problems with going same side grab vs cross hand grab, for the front shoulder vs for the rear shoulder. Later on it may be ok to stand in a more neutral posture, making uke decide which side looks more open - though my strong preference as nage is to take the initiative by offering the target.
But we never teach them to root in place and wait for the grab to reach them; we teach them to keep soft eyes, awareness of ma'ai, and (hopefully) move as soon as they see uke's center move.

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-27-2010, 07:44 PM   #63
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
I think a lot of this is situational and depends on what is being taught in a given class and why
Wrong. What you are attempting to describe is rote memorization of technique.

Anyone ever hear of " Mushin, Mugamae" ?

I did not think so, or some you would not just now be realizing this?

Last edited by mickeygelum : 11-27-2010 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 11-27-2010, 09:02 PM   #64
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Wrong. What you are attempting to describe is rote memorization of technique.
How do you teach your beginners if not by some form of rote memorization of the idealized form of both nagewaza and ukewaza?

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-27-2010, 09:14 PM   #65
Mark Mueller
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Poor "insert your word here" seems to be on the rise.

IS, Movement, Attitude, Atemi....always something to work on...just don't go off on the latest fuss and opinion.
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Old 11-28-2010, 03:35 AM   #66
sakumeikan
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Re: Mushin /Mugamai

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Wrong. What you are attempting to describe is rote memorization of technique.

Anyone ever hear of " Mushin, Mugamae" ?

I did not think so, or some you would not just now be realizing this?
Dear Michael

You flatter yourself to think that you are unique in being familiar with both these terms.If anyone wishes to check out the meaning of Mushin you will see that it is a Zen based concept relating to a state of no mind.However to acquire this state one has to do thousands of repetitive movements [in the discipline ] in order to have the ability to be totally free in action without conscious thought.
I hardly think a beginner would acquire this state of mind
in a short period of time.As far as mugamai is concerned the concept of leading or inviting an opponent to attack is also in my mind not something a beginner would grasp straight away.
I hope I have no drifted of course in respect of my comments.
Best regards, Joe.
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Old 11-28-2010, 06:58 AM   #67
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Hey Joe,

The original post was...

Quote:
Posture needs improvement.
Why is it that today there are so many pics and video showing high level Aikidoka, Japanese and Westerners with obvious poor posture during the execution of even the most basic of techniques. Understanding of Timing and Distance has obviously been poorly stressed.
I was never addressing beginners, so I guess you have drifted from the original thread.

"Mushin, Mugamae", thank you for restating the obvious.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:26 AM   #68
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

We are taught mushin and mugamae no kamae since day one. I'm sure it also applies to David will Mickey.
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:56 AM   #69
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
We are taught mushin and mugamae no kamae since day one. I'm sure it also applies to David will Mickey.
Absolutely true, Alejandro.... Professor Tomiki's base concept for his Shodokan, "Mushin, Mugamae" , literally " No Mind, No Posture" is translatable " No Emotion, No Stance"

Quote:
You flatter yourself to think that you are unique in being familiar with both these terms
No Joe, not really, but then you are Aikikai, so I understand your amazement..

Train well,

Mickey

Last edited by mickeygelum : 11-28-2010 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 11-28-2010, 12:11 PM   #70
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Absolutely true, Alejandro.... Professor Tomiki's base concept for his Shodokan, "Mushin, Mugamae" , literally " No Mind, No Posture" is translatable " No Emotion, No Stance"

No Joe, not really, but then you are Aikikai, so I understand your amazement..

Train well,

Mickey
Clearly I'm missing something to this exchange...
Not the first or last time though. I thought Alejandro was telling you those concepts are present in other practices...to which you replied "[absolutely, it's in Tomiki]"? And then suggested to Joe he's ignorant of them simply because he's Aikikai? Tongue in cheek?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 11-28-2010 at 12:16 PM.

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Old 11-28-2010, 12:55 PM   #71
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Matt,

If you re-read the post, I was agreeing with Alejandro, in that his statement is that we ALL are taught that from day one.

Observe, Joes' statement ;

Quote:
I hardly think a beginner would acquire this state of mind
in a short period of time.As far as mugamai is concerned the concept of leading or inviting an opponent to attack is also in my mind not something a beginner would grasp straight away.
...one would infer that his flavor fails to address this standard initially. Why would one not seed that concept, instead of having to remodel it later.

Also, a direct yeild, taisabaki and kuzushi, which are not present in many illustrations offered within this site.

And...if I thought someone was ignorant, I would tell them directly.

Mickey

Last edited by mickeygelum : 11-28-2010 at 01:03 PM. Reason: 無知は富む
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Old 11-28-2010, 01:19 PM   #72
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Mickey,
Thanks for filling in the pieces I missed!
Take care,
Matt

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Old 11-28-2010, 05:22 PM   #73
sakumeikan
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Smile Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Matt,

If you re-read the post, I was agreeing with Alejandro, in that his statement is that we ALL are taught that from day one.

Observe, Joes' statement ;

...one would infer that his flavor fails to address this standard initially. Why would one not seed that concept, instead of having to remodel it later.

Also, a direct yeild, taisabaki and kuzushi, which are not present in many illustrations offered within this site.

And...if I thought someone was ignorant, I would tell them directly.

Mickey
Dear Mickey,
Mickey, I am not exactly sure what you mean by the phrase 'his flavor'. If you are stating /implying that Aikikai training does not include any of these concepts mentioned in your reply , I can assure you that this is not the case.
What i am saying is quite simply is that concepts like Mushin /Mugamai are not something one acquires quickly In the case of beginners I think it is sufficient at the outset to keep things simple not bog anybody down by Zen oriented concepts.
As far as being forthright and telling someone he is ignorant
directly, thats fine.Remember the phrase Ignorance is Bliss.May I also state that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing,
Take Care, Joe.
By the way my favorite flavour[ U.K. spelling ] is vanilla [in ice cream ].Are you a strawberry /mint chocolate yourself??
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Old 11-28-2010, 05:32 PM   #74
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Caramel or Butterscotch....
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:11 AM   #75
sakumeikan
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Re: Poor posture seems to be on the rise.

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Caramel or Butterscotch....
Hi Mickey,
Good to know we can have a laugh on the Forum.
All the best , Joe.
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