Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-25-2010, 09:44 AM   #76
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
When I was a young shodan in 1976, I trained at the Korindo dojo in Shizuoka, they did clapping before the training started. I did also, of course totally wrong. One of the deshi came afterwards to me and he said : if you don't understand, don't do it because it makes a fool of you.
Today we just bow and no clapping, because I still don't understand :-)

Eddy
Do you ever miss Shizuoka?

I do. Sometimes more than others.

Mochizuki Sensei was there, of course, and he had a shrine at the head of the dojo. We always bowed and clapped toward that at the beginning, with Sensei facing the kamiza. Then he would turn around and bow toward us as we bowed toward him (no clapping at that point).

He told a great story along these lines, though.

When he was young, living in Tokyo, training in judo, having already been uchi deshi to Kyuzo Mifune, he and his friends used to pass a Shinto shrine. The priest was an old man who was the last headmaster of a jujutsu ryu. He called Mochizuki and his friends to stop and told them about his art, called gyokushin ryu. So these young judoka began to train with him, but they found it very boring because it was all kata and they were used to a lot of randori.

Eventually, all these guys quit except Mochizuki, who kept going for some reason. To encourage him, this priest fed Mochizuki the cakes and things that had been offered to the kami at his Shinto shrine. Sensei said he would eat all this up while the old priest talked to him, but when he finished eating he would make a getaway. He earned about shodan or nidan, then quit. The old priest said, "From this point on, the art has a lot of sutemi waza. It gets very interesting." But Sensei was very busy then and he didn't see any future in the training, so he just stopped going.

Years later, after the old man died and Sensei had been through Ueshiba's Hell Gym, trained in katori shinto ryu, trained with Gichin Funakoshi in karate, went through the war and was living in France, he saw professional wrestlers doing sacrifice throws and he started thinking back on the old priest and his gyokushin ryu jujutsu. He started feeling very bad for how he had treated the old priest, and was embarrassed to realize that he, himself, had allowed an very old koryu art to vanish from Japan. At his dojo, in the early 1990s, he showed me a large collection of books, a set of the complete registry of all the bujutusu ryu of Japan, and he showed me the listing for gyokushin ryu, and the name of his old teacher, the last in the line. He felt very bad that he had let this art slip through his hands. So ever since he lived in France, he had spent incredible effort and time reconstructing what he could of the gyokushin ryu. Though he never even saw the sutemi waza of gyokushin ryu, he created a broad repertoire of very unique stuemi waza and incorporated them into his yoseikan budo. Later, when he gave out the menkyo kaiden to twenty of his longest-standing students, he listed "yoseikan gyokushin ryu" among the elements each man had mastered. However, this was all just surmise since he had never actually seen any of the gyokushin ryu sutemi waza. And gyokushin ryu did not continue in the registry of bujutsu ryu past Teruo Ohshima, his old teacher.

But maybe Sensei did carry the real spirit of the school. He knew the old man well and he had heard much of what he had to tell him. And he had eaten the food that had been blessed for the kami in the shrine. Maybe that had a deeper effect on his spirit than he imagined. Maybe that was why he felt so haunted, years later, by the old man's request that he learn the art, and by the memory of his own escape from that learning.

Myself, I often feel a sort of haunting from Mochizuki Sensei. I don't mind at all. I do miss him a lot and I think back on his yoseikan budo as a sort of "ghost ryu" because it has pretty well vanished from the earth. The menkyo holders call his art "Seifukai" now and the yoseikan budo of Hiroo Mochizuki is a very different thing. The closest thing is Patrick Auge's yoseikan budo, but even that has been fully renovated by Auge's western thinking, life and students in the US and Canada.

At the end of classes, Sensei would lead us in recitation of "Seikun," a little essay by an emperor, I believe, possibly Meiji, which began, "Seikun, fubo ni kou ni, keitei ni yu ni, fuufu ai washi, ho yu ai shinji..."

"Be filial to your parents, affectionate to your brothers and sisters; as husbands and wives be harmonious, as friends be true..."

I can still hear his gravelly old voice reciting that statement. I still hear the clapping of the hands and I feel the slap in my own hands. I feel the bow. I'm sure those things will never leave me.

That's why I say, "If you don't like the tea, you don't have to drink it. But I won't add sugar to it and I won't use Lipton instead of o cha."

Best to all.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 11-25-2010 at 09:48 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 09:57 AM   #77
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
The menkyo holders call his art "Seifukai" now and the yoseikan budo of Hiroo Mochizuki is a very different thing. The closest thing is Patrick Auge's yoseikan budo, but even that has been fully renovated by Auge's western thinking, life and students in the US and Canada.
Actually, Edgar Kruyning, in the Netherlands, was ranked godan by Minoru Mochizuki, in his own yoseikan budo and godan by Hiroo Mochizuki in that form of yoseikan budo. He continued with Hiroo Sensei for a long time, so he may have reached higher rank than that. And his teaching remains very faithful to Mochizuki Sensei's old way. So if you want to know that way, Edgar Kruyning is a name you should not overlook.

And if you want to see something of that Way in book form, be sure to get a copy of "The Art of Jujutsu" by Edgar Kruyning.

Best.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 11:39 AM   #78
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Thumbs up Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
And if you want to see something of that Way in book form, be sure to get a copy of "The Art of Jujutsu" by Edgar Kruyning.
Got it. Enjoyed it. Treasure it as a "rare" (as in rara avis) hybrid between the old and the new systems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 12:24 PM   #79
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,222
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
The bow and the clapping in the Shizuoka dojo was in front of a Shinto shrine. In that time I didn't know anything about shinto and shrines. Now I have some understanding because I have some family in Japan. The message in that time was very clear, you don't have to do those things if it is not your religion or belief. You only have to show some respect to the other people who understand the bowing and clapping. Now when I visit a Shinto shrine, I only bow to show my respect but I don't clap because it has to meaning to me . I can understand the influence of some religion into martial arts, but this is not a reason to do all those things just copying and have no spirit. If I put a cross in the dojo and before training I do my christian ritual, I cannot expect from non christians they do my ritual, if they understand they can do but in the other case they just show respect by bowing. And by the way in my dojo there is no cross
That makes sense. When I read your earlier post I thought, "how do you clap wrong?" Now it seems like it should have been more obvious to me. I guess I'll blame that on my cold medicine. Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 12:43 PM   #80
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
When I read your earlier post I thought, "how do you clap wrong?"
Let's just say, it only had to happen once for me to realize that you must not clap too close to the nose....

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 12:44 PM   #81
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Got it. Enjoyed it. Treasure it as a "rare" (as in rara avis) hybrid between the old and the new systems.
Yes, Edgar has a firm grasp of both approaches and the physical and mental abilities to develop both and represent them well to the world.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 01:27 PM   #82
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,334
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Do you ever miss Shizuoka?
I do. Sometimes more than others....
He told a great story along these lines, though.
David, what a bittersweet story on a wintry Thanksgiving morning... Thank you.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 10:13 PM   #83
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
David, what a bittersweet story on a wintry Thanksgiving morning... Thank you.
Kochira koso.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2010, 02:29 AM   #84
Matthew Brosseau
Dojo: Aikido Tanren Juku Calgary
Location: Calgary
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 7
Canada
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

We clap when there's some sort of accomplishment that has been made such as a new ranking,
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2010, 03:48 PM   #85
OwlMatt
 
OwlMatt's Avatar
Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
United_States
Offline
Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

In my dojo (ASU), some instructors clap and some do not. I clap with those sensei who clap. If I ever become an instructor myself (that's a looong way off), I will not clap, because I think it ascribes an element of religious ritual to the act of bowing in that doesn't belong there. We ought to bow to O Sensei out of respect and thanks, but I perfer to bow to him the same way I bow to my own sensei.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 03:41 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 07:05 PM
Bowing to Kamidana/Kamiza Don Spiritual 106 08-12-2007 11:35 AM
My answer to a very good question: Charlie General 1 08-02-2005 08:10 AM
Article: Thoughts on Bugei Studies by Karl Friday AikiWeb System Training 28 04-27-2002 06:21 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:01 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate