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Old 11-19-2010, 12:36 PM   #26
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

If you want to see how aikido works against an opponent who is really trying to stab you, watch some Shodokan style competition.
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:06 PM   #27
ravenest
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
If you want to see how aikido works against an opponent who is really trying to stab you, watch some Shodokan style competition.
Do you have a ref for that or a site I can watch. I have NEVER seen a competition where someone is really trying to stab someone (unless its like they do in the Philippines). I have seen plenty of DEMOS but not a competition with a knife using Aikido.

The demos are a bit obvious, even the realistic looking ones, one can see where the technique is about to happen as the decisive attack is often telegraphed deliberately (and sometimes hidden from the audience )

I would never use one of the aikido knife taking techniques on a person brandishing a knife ... unless they handed that specific opportunity to me on a platter, ie. they didnt know how to attack.

I organised some knife defense/fights (outside the dojo - home training) once, with large red texta pens. The results were quiet surprising and confronting for a few people.

But then a LOT of what we do in the dojo isnt fit for the street IMO.
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:45 AM   #28
Mark Mueller
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

"If you want to see how aikido works against an opponent who is really trying to stab you, watch some Shodokan style competition."

Ahhh...but because it is competition one knows the attacker has a knife....there are a proscribed set and methods of attacks allowed.....a dummy weapon is used....and there is no intent to kill on the part of the attacker.

So while it is a bit more intense than what is normal tanto dori practice it still not even remotely close to what a real knife attack would be.
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:59 AM   #29
mickeygelum
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
So while it is a bit more intense than what is normal tanto dori practice it still not even remotely close to what a real knife attack would be.
Absolutely true...it is a regulated sport/competition, it can not be real.

Shodokans' training and proficiency standards, on-the-whole, far exceed most others flavors.

Last edited by mickeygelum : 11-23-2010 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:55 PM   #30
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Absolutely true...it is a regulated sport/competition, it can not be real.

Shodokans' training and proficiency standards, on-the-whole, far exceed most others flavors.


Still keep my tanbo behind my cab seat though......
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Old 11-23-2010, 03:30 PM   #31
Cliff Judge
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
If you want to see how aikido works against an opponent who is really trying to stab you, watch some Shodokan style competition.
But that's not how Aikido works when someone is trying to stab you, because its a competition, so the range of techniques you are allowed to perform is limited, and there are rules you can game.
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Old 11-23-2010, 04:28 PM   #32
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
But that's not how Aikido works when someone is trying to stab you, because its a competition, so the range of techniques you are allowed to perform is limited, and there are rules you can game.
So while it is a bit more intense than what is normal tanto dori practice it still not even remotely close to what a real knife attack would be.
Strictly speaking that is "how Aikido works" though, isn't it? It's just that it's applied to a very limited setting. A lot of things are practiced with rules: are they all unreal (i.e. unrelatable to real life situations)? I think it's more correct to describe it as non-comprehensive rather than to suggest that all attacks will never look like that.
...I'm probably just nit-picking the language though.
FWIW

Last edited by mathewjgano : 11-23-2010 at 04:32 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:33 PM   #33
dps
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

It depends on your how you train to response to the attack. The first instant is crucial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6CdH...FD1FC&index=11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6j0I...eature=channel

dps
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:22 PM   #34
Aikibu
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
It depends on your how you train to response to the attack. The first instant is crucial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6CdH...FD1FC&index=11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6j0I...eature=channel

dps
Outstanding...The difference between survival and harm can be measured in seconds and inches. Thanks for the clips. This is why Atemi is 90% of Aikido.

William Hazen
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Old 11-24-2010, 09:05 AM   #35
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Outstanding...The difference between survival and harm can be measured in seconds and inches. Thanks for the clips. This is why Atemi is 90% of Aikido.

William Hazen
It's been my experience..
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Old 11-24-2010, 09:12 AM   #36
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Absolutely true...it is a regulated sport/competition, it can not be real.

Shodokans' training and proficiency standards, on-the-whole, far exceed most others flavors.
So Shodokan players up the tempo out of the arena with attacks from all angles, that makes it more fun and tells you when and where you would have been cut, stabbed, sliced or diced. Good practice for/ from the flinch reaction..... One hopes
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Old 11-24-2010, 09:17 AM   #37
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
But that's not how Aikido works when someone is trying to stab you, because its a competition, so the range of techniques you are allowed to perform is limited, and there are rules you can game.
In reply to this comment, and all the others like it, of course sport competition is not and cannot be equated to self-defense. But Shodokan-style competition can at lest provide an insight into how aikido techniques are used against opponents who are going to attack full speed every time, who are going to feint rather than committing their whole momentum to every attack, who are going to fight the defender's technique, etc.
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:43 PM   #38
Bud
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

I used to practice Aikido (for more than 10 years) and now teach Pekiti Tirsia Kali and have been doing so for a number of years.

Coming from an Aikido background to PTK, the difference between the two regarding knives is immense.

It'll be difficult to compare the two re knife defense but here goes:

Aikido in general trains to defend against a single slash or thrust, usually with the attacker taking a step forward. In PTK the maai is much closer - close enough to stab at arm's length, and the attack is never a single slash or thrust, rather a series of rapid and flowing cuts and stabs, with the empty hand assisting in the attack.

During my Aikido days, knife attacks were simple stabs and slashes, with the attacker allowing me to apply a technique. In PTK a knife attack is trained as a full on assault, with the attacker rushing in and using both the weapon and his empty hand to drive the knife to its targets. Blocking the knife attacks won't work, you'll just open up other targets for the attacker to get to as he redirects his weapon around your blocks. So applying a yokomen parry to apply a kotegaeshi will be answered by a quick slashing downward to the aikidoka's torso or thighs, followed by a thrust to the kidneys.

A properly trained PTK student will know all the usual empty handed knife defenses (blocks and locks like kotegaeshi and hiji kime) and will be trained to counter them. The way these are countered isn't't something I'd like to discuss in detail here but suffice to say that trying these defensive tactics on someone trained in PTK will get you killed much faster. Someone trained to use a knife might even want you to try grabbing for the weapon as bait for sneaky counterattack. When I was first started studying PTK I had the habit of trying to hold or grab the knife hand and I learned very quickly why I needed to change that habit LOL!

PTK empty handed knife defenses are rather hard to briefly describe however it is firmly rooted in the idea that the knife will be constantly and quickly moving and trying to chase after it is futile and suicidal. There is not a single magical technique but rather a series of defensive options based on a realistic understanding of what a knife can do and how it will be used. To learn to defend against a knife you need to know how it'll be used, which is why we usually teach knife use before knife defense. Part of the key to good knife defense is atemi, and lots of it.

I hope that I don't make PTK sound like a school of bloodthirsty assassins or I'm bashing aikido. I'm just giving my 2 cents on this, since PTK has been mentioned and I used to do aikido. I strongly recommend that aikidoka interested in investigating realistic knife defenses and attacks should invite a PTK teacher or student and see how the weapon is realistically applied.

Hope this helps..
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:07 PM   #39
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

It does!
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:11 PM   #40
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
In reply to this comment, and all the others like it, of course sport competition is not and cannot be equated to self-defense. But Shodokan-style competition can at lest provide an insight into how aikido techniques are used against opponents who are going to attack full speed every time, who are going to feint rather than committing their whole momentum to every attack, who are going to fight the defender's technique, etc.
Aids in teaching what can and can't be done.... truth is no one knows unless attacked for real with a razor sharp knife... most end up badly cut, injured or dead.......
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:53 PM   #41
mickeygelum
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
I hope that I don't make PTK sound like a school of bloodthirsty assassins or I'm bashing aikido. I'm just giving my 2 cents on this, since PTK has been mentioned and I used to do aikido. I strongly recommend that aikidoka interested in investigating realistic knife defenses and attacks should invite a PTK teacher or student and see how the weapon is realistically applied.
I absolutely concur.....No one will fault you for speaking the truth...except for those ready-made-for-slaughter aikibunnies !

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:15 AM   #42
raul rodrigo
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Let me just say that when Buddy Acenas talks about knife use and knife defense, he knows what he's talking about.
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Old 11-25-2010, 03:32 AM   #43
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Looking on the humorous side I suppose I'll just have to carry my nihonto (bloody great big sword!!) around, just in case.....?
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Old 11-25-2010, 06:11 PM   #44
ravenest
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Buddy Acenas wrote: View Post
I used to practice Aikido (for more than 10 years) and now teach Pekiti Tirsia Kali and have been doing so for a number of years.

Hope this helps..
Thankyou - a good post and a clear point I was trying to make badly in the other knife thread.
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Old 03-31-2011, 10:31 AM   #45
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

I am entering the thread late but this and similar questions come up constantly as new students enter our dojo. Earlier someone noted the unavoidable fact that the fitness and ability of each combatant is key. Mike Tyson without a tanto is more dangerous than Al Sharpton with a switchblade. The basic question of Aikido's efficacy we feel misses the essence of training. We repeat a prescribed movement ten thousand times to sensitize ourselves to a response. This is the process of kata. In michi waza(street situations) most of what will remain is just the rhythm, timing, poise and movement from the dojo. Kotegaeshi may become "parry punch" but the success is because of the responses encoded in muscle memory. Henry Smith Shihan teaches that if I am trapped in a position where I must practice tanto tori then my Aikido has already failed. I should have left the bar, or parked near the guard post or been already talking on the phone to the 911 dispatcher before the knife was drawn. This mindset, free of testosterone blindness, is the highest practice of O'Sensei's art.
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:00 PM   #46
Michael Hackett
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

I just attended a Bob Koga seminar last weekend. For those who don't know of Koga Sensei, he is the architect of "Practical Aikido" and a long-time police defensive tactics instructor. Originally a martial artist, Koga Sensei became "The Man" for law enforcement with LAPD. All this is to suggest that he knows what he's talking about.

He made the statement that martial artists have an advantage over the average person when confronted with a knife, but they could also count on one of two consequences when defending unarmed: they will die or be seriously injured. He said the only way he would attempt to take a knife away while unarmed is if he were locked in an empty room, stark naked, with his attacker. Otherwise he would attempt to flee or find a weapon of some sort.

He said the major advantage to being a martial artist is the development of awareness over time and the skill to see and feel when trouble is brewing. Since most of his teaching is to cops, he doesn't use terms like "ma ai" or "zanshin", but rather distance and awareness.

Can you do it? Sure. Will you be injured? Quite probably. Should you do it? Only if you have no other choice.

Michael
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:22 AM   #47
Bud
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Ed Shockley wrote: View Post
Henry Smith Shihan teaches that if I am trapped in a position where I must practice tanto tori then my Aikido has already failed. I should have left the bar, or parked near the guard post or been already talking on the phone to the 911 dispatcher before the knife was drawn. This mindset, free of testosterone blindness, is the highest practice of O'Sensei's art.
Absolutely. It's always best to back away from a situation that may escalate beyond the usual fistfight. Where I live, fistfights can very easily lead to the introduction of edged weapons. If a situation starts getting tense, expect sharp and pointy things to be tossed into the mix.

It's irresponsible for a teacher of any system to delude his or her students that a knife attack can be easily defeated with the techniques they teach. "Testosterone blindness" + knife attack + unrealistic expectations re knife defense = bad, bad news for the defender

I consider PTK knife training as an education in respecting the weapon, knowing what it can do. By studying how to use it and the damage it can do, my students realize the risks and they lose any cockiness they might have with engaging an attacker with a knife while empty-handed. I always teach empty handed knife defense as a last ditch response to a worst case scenario.

Which is why I strongly recommend that aikidoka studying both the formal tanto dori waza they need to do in the dojo and defenses used against more realistic knife attacks. Practicing the standard knife defenses is ok; it's part of Aikido and if I recall correctly, required for some Aikikai yudansha exams. But I do hope that most Aikidoka look beyond the formal techniques and see how they can be applied against the typical street attack.
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Old 04-09-2011, 02:43 PM   #48
sakumeikan
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Hi everyone,
The question posed by the initial writer is this-is true aikido effective for disarming knife attacks?The answer is yes.However
the point I am making is this , are we doing true aikido?Some may well be doing so, others no.
I also consider any attack be it empty hand or knife or whatever has got to be faced with a very determined mind set. If confronted by a bad scene you cannot afford to be complacent.You must be totally aware of your surroundings, use your common sense, assess the situation and if humanly possible ,get the hell out Kincaid as John Wayne might say.If you cant avoid the situation use whatever it takes to finish the job asap.Aikido demos are not truly representative of what takes place outside the dojo.
As it happens I was out with my missus and a pal in a local bar tonight and this guy got a bit shirty with me.At first I thought he was pulling my pl-----r.I soon realised he was working his ticket. I guess he thought I was a bit of a mug .Anyway after a brief exchange of 'friendly dialogue 'he left rather sharply.Fortunately it didnt come to blows. The rest of the pub clientele were a little bit taken back.Moral of the story-sometimes when you are in a good mood , some prat tries it on,so as a good friend of mine [a certain American ex marine] says ,maintain constant vigilance and eternal suspicion.
Cheers, Joe.
Ps For the benefit of the fellow Geordies amongst our readers
the bar was the Salutation Arms, Tynemouth.
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Old 04-09-2011, 04:17 PM   #49
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Joe's story reminds me once again of Winston Churchill's comment that we are"two nations separated by a common language."

Michael
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Old 04-09-2011, 04:31 PM   #50
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Joe's story reminds me once again of Winston Churchill's comment that we are"two nations separated by a common language."
Dear Michael,
What part of my story do you apparently fail to comprehend?As a nation that gave us Hip Hop /Rap I would have thought you could understand almost any dialect.
Cheers, Joe.
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