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Old 11-24-2010, 06:04 AM   #76
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: aikido is...

Preferibly one who can read the original in German.
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:49 AM   #77
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post

Aside from that: Schopenhauer, who fused the Eastern and Western traditions; I would liken his writing to very good aikido, haha: it leads you, effortlessly - but without the feeling you are being led. He just makes perfect sense (as true aikido does )...
Did you ever read Schopenhauer's essay on women?

Not much Aiki going on there let me tell you!
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:52 AM   #78
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Edit:

We find in it the saddest and the poorest form of Theism. Much may be lost through the translations; but I have not been able to discover one single valuable thought in it.
I've never read it, but not a single valuable thought? C'mon...
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:59 AM   #79
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
I've never read it, but not a single valuable thought? C'mon...
Oisin, I was quoting Schopenhauer on Qur'an. Very aiki too.
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:03 AM   #80
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
...because they are part of the universe, and the universe is 'The way of harmony'...?

I can recommend some books on Taoism, Zen, and Buddhism if you'd like to learn about this kind of stuff.
I can even recommend some Western philosophy that touches on these kinds of ideas, if you want?
I've made some study of Buddhism, thanks. The Buddhist philosophy of non-duality does not mean or imply that any one thing is everything, or can become so by virtue of being "part of the universe".
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:05 AM   #81
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Can you prove that they are not aikido?
I don't need to. The burden of proof is on the one who has made the assertion -- that's you.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:35 AM   #82
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I don't need to. The burden of proof is on the one who has made the assertion -- that's you.
But, you see, it really does not matter to me whether or not you believe or agree with me. So I have no need to prove it. There are some things you just have to discover for yourself. It does not bother me that you do not agree. Why does it bother you that I believe that aikido is everything and everything is aikido?
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:25 AM   #83
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Did you ever read Schopenhauer's essay on women?

Not much Aiki going on there let me tell you!
Hahaha. I know: the term 'sexism' doesn't really have the same connotations as 'racism', unfortunately; so i'd have to call it 'racism against women'.
He was a man of contrasts, to be sure: he argued for such a magnificent way of life - but didn't live such a life himself.

Last edited by Gorgeous George : 11-24-2010 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Added a space...
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:00 AM   #84
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
He was a man of contrasts, to be sure: he argued for such a magnificent way of life - but didn't live such a life himself.
More talk than walk. Like aikido itself
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:21 AM   #85
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I've made some study of Buddhism, thanks. The Buddhist philosophy of non-duality does not mean or imply that any one thing is everything, or can become so by virtue of being "part of the universe".
If by practicing Aikido one can join with kannagara ("the restless, infinite movements of nature/the universe") to the point of being able to describe the self as the universe, couldn't we also describe the practice itself as the same? ...Being that the practice is manifest through the person?
I'm not saying it's one way or the other...just enjoying the mental exercise and seeing what I might learn.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:37 AM   #86
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
But, you see, it really does not matter to me whether or not you believe or agree with me. So I have no need to prove it. There are some things you just have to discover for yourself.
But, YOU see, this last line is the equivalent of saying that the emperor is wearing a suit of clothes that are "possessed the wonderful quality of being invisible to any man who was unfit for his office or unpardonably stupid."

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
It does not bother me that you do not agree. Why does it bother you that I believe that aikido is everything and everything is aikido?
It doesn't bother me that you believe it -- really. When I provide a simple logical example for why aikido is not everything and everything is not aikido, and you choose not to address it, that also does not bother me. Given the many aiki-swindlers spouting pseudo-koans and selling invisible clothes, however, I consider it a community service to say, "But he hasn't got anything on!" I have no problem with your believing whatever you want to believe, but I do have a problem with the promotion of the unquestioning acceptance of beliefs that strain credulity and do not pass a simple logical test. Aikido's got too much of that as is.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:40 AM   #87
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
If by practicing Aikido one can join with kannagara ("the restless, infinite movements of nature/the universe") to the point of being able to describe the self as the universe, couldn't we also describe the practice itself as the same? ...Being that the practice is manifest through the person?
Witches should be burned.
Wood can be burned.
Therefore, witches are made of wood.
Wood floats.
A duck floats.
Therefore, if a woman weights the same as a duck, she's made of wood...and therefore...

A WITCH!!!!

When you construct a long chain of, "A -> B, B -> C", you've got to be very rigorous at each step of the process. "A can be said to imply B" and "Under some interpretations of B and C, B could be said to imply C" don't cut it.
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:01 PM   #88
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Witches should be burned.
Wood can be burned.
Therefore, witches are made of wood.
Wood floats.
A duck floats.
Therefore, if a woman weights the same as a duck, she's made of wood...and therefore...

A WITCH!!!!

When you construct a long chain of, "A -> B, B -> C", you've got to be very rigorous at each step of the process. "A can be said to imply B" and "Under some interpretations of B and C, B could be said to imply C" don't cut it.
Or really small rocks!
I get that, but what specifically would contradict the loose chain I presented? In other words, just because it's a weak chain of thought, that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong, right? What about the "links" themselves?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 11-24-2010 at 12:07 PM.

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Old 11-24-2010, 12:12 PM   #89
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
but I do have a problem with the promotion of the unquestioning acceptance of beliefs that strain credulity and do not pass a simple logical test.
But, but... these are the things that give that warm and fuzzy feelings inside.
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:36 PM   #90
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Witches should be burned.
Wood can be burned.
Therefore, witches are made of wood.
Wood floats.
A duck floats.
Therefore, if a woman weights the same as a duck, she's made of wood...and therefore...

A WITCH!!!!

When you construct a long chain of, "A -> B, B -> C", you've got to be very rigorous at each step of the process. "A can be said to imply B" and "Under some interpretations of B and C, B could be said to imply C" don't cut it.
Gee I really would love to see a woman who weighs the same as a duck....your argument really does not hold water.

O'Sensei once said, "I am the universe",. I'm pretty sure he believed that he was. I can even understand exactly what he meant by that and based on the same idea aikido is indeed everything. Tell me, If he were here today would you also tell him that he was not the universe? The difference is you are only judging by things that can be weighed, measured. Perceived by our basic senses.

I in no way think or mean to indicate that only the worthy can perceive it the way I do. But not everyone is capable of perceiving just as some people have a talent for singing or art while others do not. Some who wish can develop such talents and some others will never be able to no matter how they try. It does not make the ones who can't any less valuable than the ones who can.

Anyway I answered the OP's question as I see it. I have nothing more to add to the discussion.
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:51 PM   #91
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
O'Sensei once said, "I am the universe",
Did he?
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:58 PM   #92
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I've made some study of Buddhism, thanks. The Buddhist philosophy of non-duality does not mean or imply that any one thing is everything, or can become so by virtue of being "part of the universe".
I think this view is consistent with my understanding of Dogen's essay on being-time and existence:

An old buddha said:
For the time being, I stand astride the highest mountain peaks.
For the time being, I move on the deepest depths of the ocean floor.
For the time being, I'm three heads and eight arms.
For the time being, I'm eight or sixteen feet.
For the time being, I'm a staff or whisk.
For the time being, I'm a pillar or lantern.
For the time being, I'm Mr. Chang or Mr. Li.
For the time being, I'm the great earth and heavens above.

"The time being" means time, just as it is, is being, and being is all time.

The sixteen-foot golden buddha-body is time; because it is time,
it has time's glorious golden radiance.

You must learn to see this glorious radiance in the twelve hours of your day.

The three heads and eight arms is time; because it is time, it can be in no way different from the twelve hours of your day.

****
The mind and the word are equally being-time. Their reaching and
not-reaching alike are being-time. Even when the time of their
reaching is not yet over, the time of their not-reaching is come.

Moreover, the mind is the time of the immediately present ultimate Dharma.

The word is the time of the key to higher attainment.

Reaching is the time of the body of total emancipation.

Not-reaching is the time you are "one with this and apart from this."

You should attest and affirm thus;
you should being-time thus.

We should say:

Half-reaching of mind and word is also being-time.
Half not-reaching of mind and word is also being-time.

Written in Kosho Hörin-ji,
at the beginning of winter, the first year of Ninji (1240)

Dogen (1200-1253)
Shobogenzo Uji, (1240)
Translated by N. A. Waddell
The Eastern Buddhist, Vol. XII, No. 1 (May 1979), pp. 114-129

David Henderson
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:19 PM   #93
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Did he?
He did. More than once..

Quote:
“The secret of Aikido lies in uniting ourselves with the Universe. By purifying ourselves and harmonising with the movement of the universe. For those who master the secrets of Aikido, the Universe lies within. Thus may I say, I who am the Universe.
Quote:
“When an enemy tries to fight with me, the universe itself, he has to break the harmony of the universe. Hence at the moment he has the mind to fight with me, he is already defeated. There exists no measure of time — fast or slow.”

And he even said that others too can be the universe..

Quote:
“The secret of Aikido is to harmonize ourselves with the movement of the universe and bring ourselves into accord with the universe itself. He who has gained the secret of Aikido has the universe in himself and can say, ‘I am the universe.’ I am never defeated, however fast the enemy may attack. It is not because my technique is faster than that of the enemy. It is not a question of speed. The fight is finished before it is begun.”
There are quite a few other quotes to be found, this is a small sample.

It's interesting to go looking to see what the founder himself had to say on so many subjects. Often what he has said that aikido is, is what many here say aikido isn't.

Last edited by Shadowfax : 11-24-2010 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:30 PM   #94
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: aikido is...

Let me rephrase the question.

Do you know he said that or you believe he said that?

The quotes you provided only prove someone wrote that (in English nonetheless) giving O Sensei as source.
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:10 PM   #95
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Gee I really would love to see a woman who weighs the same as a duck....your argument really does not hold water.
That was the point.
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:15 PM   #96
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
... I have no problem with your believing whatever you want to believe, but I do have a problem with the promotion of the unquestioning acceptance of beliefs that strain credulity and do not pass a simple logical test. Aikido's got too much of that as is.
We really need a "golf clap" emoticon... Mostly because I don't want all those people who are one with the universe to start dropping a can of universal sized whoop-ass on me...

Last edited by Keith Larman : 11-24-2010 at 02:18 PM.

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Old 11-24-2010, 02:21 PM   #97
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Although I must admit most of those folk who are blissfully at one with the universe tend to find the universe has some pretty rough edges when push comes to shove... I guess those other people who aren't one with the universe make things a bit, um, bumpy... Especially when they just hit you in the face instead of holding on and flowing with the beautiful waza...

"No, that's not the right attack. Like this!!!!!"

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Old 11-24-2010, 02:24 PM   #98
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Re: aikido is...

And now that we have, what, umpteen pages of responses, I think it's time to quote my original post.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Aikido is an art so nebulously defined that it has become the equivalent of a Rorschach test for the belief system of the person studying the art.
Yes! Nailed it!

Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah...

P.S. For those of you in the US, have a wonderful Thanksgiving with your family and friends. When all is said and done those folk are the real meaning of life. Enjoy. And to those of you outside the US... Oh, hell, do the same thing and have a great day too...

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Old 11-24-2010, 02:30 PM   #99
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Re: aikido is...

Me seeing me as I really am.......
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Old 11-24-2010, 03:10 PM   #100
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Re: aikido is...

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Gee I really would love to see a woman who weighs the same as a duck....your argument really does not hold water.
That was just an example of how a string of related ideas can get out of hand very quickly (from Monty Python's, Search for the Holy Grail). I thought it was a good point to make.

Quote:
O'Sensei once said, "I am the universe",. I'm pretty sure he believed that he was. I can even understand exactly what he meant by that and based on the same idea aikido is indeed everything.
Would you be able and willing to describe it? Personally, i get uncomfortable when people say they know "exactly" what others mean, particularly in topics like this. Not that I think you don't, just that it seems questionable, based on personal experience.

Quote:
But not everyone is capable of perceiving just as some people have a talent for singing or art while others do not.
While I would word it differently, I think I agree with the idea that different people perceive things differently. Taking the opposite direction (i.e. assuming, for the sake of discussion, that you're not really able to understand it as well as you think) I would also say if it seems to make sense to you and it's useful to you, then that's probably good enough...for the most part. That being said, I still think it's a good thing to question. O Sensei put so much work into this that I think it's unlikely most people could appreciate "exactly" what he meant. Like you I have my hunches about how such phrasing might make sense, and on a functional level I can make it apply to a great many situations, but that doesn't mean it's exactly accurate.
If you could find the words, assuming words can even be applied, I would greatly appreciate it. My purpose here is to understand the thoughts of others so I can refine my own so while I may make this or that assertion, it's only with the aim of getting feedback.
You certainly answered the OP question, and I liked your answer because I think for you it's quite true. But as with many things, the more we talk about it and try to bring it to some objective state, the more difficult it becomes to talk about...and part of me thinks that begs for more discussion...though another part of me thinks it might be a waste of time.
Anyway...rambling done for now.
Take care,
Matthew

p.s. I pretty much agree, Keith! But I think that's part of what makes it so useful...and fits with Tony's post, now that I see it.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 11-24-2010 at 03:13 PM.

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