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Old 11-10-2010, 08:29 AM   #51
Ryan Seznee
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Training with a newbie you can also learn a lot, if you are uke beeing a good one, if you are tori controlling uke in a way that you throw or leave him exactly in the point of the mat you want to.
Newbies don't have has much to teach you because they don't know much to begin with. If they did, they wouldn't be newbies. I am not saying it is a waste of time, but no one drives for miles to see a day one beginner (but they do travel several hours to see a shihan). There was no lesson a beginner is able to teach me that someone more experienced can't do better, but (I'll be the first to admit) this is a selfish attitude.
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:44 AM   #52
Ryan Seznee
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Eva Röben wrote: View Post
...

But when training with a complete newbie, especially those of the rigid, strong and hard sort, the challenge is greater. Discarding explanations like "newbie attacked badly" (this would not count in the street when I wouldn't be able to defend myself), what might be the other reasons why I am not able to do ikkyo omote or kaiten nage correctly? Why is he able to wriggle out of shiho nage and I am not able to control him? Newbie can't tell, so I have to find out myself.

What I don't like so very much is training with small, light newbies who attack like a feather. But then again I suppose that's exactly the impression I would make on strong and dynamic yudansha who have to train with me...so that's fine also.

Eva
By in large, aikido is taught through dynamic kata. An uke litterally knows what you are going to do before you do it (unless you are practicing randori), so he should be able to escape the technique if he really wants by virtue of the fact that he knows where, how, and when you are going to attack. This isn't a failure of the technique per se, but his failure to do proper ukemi for the technique so you can practice it. It still leaves him open for another, just not that one. For instance, if someone attacks with a shomanuchi with a straight, stiff arm, it is impossible to do ikkyo without forcefully bending the arm. It does make a nice opening for rokyo, however. Higher level practitioners tend to switch to whatever works best based on body position, or such has been my experience.
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:46 AM   #53
guest1234567
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Ryan Szesny wrote: View Post
Newbies don't have has much to teach you because they don't know much to begin with. If they did, they wouldn't be newbies. I am not saying it is a waste of time, but no one drives for miles to see a day one beginner (but they do travel several hours to see a shihan). There was no lesson a beginner is able to teach me that someone more experienced can't do better, but (I'll be the first to admit) this is a selfish attitude.
Yes, newbies don'thave to teach you, you must learn by yourselve training with a newbie, it is a challenge,
As Eva Antonia said they are rigid and strong, or attack like a feather, you must teach them beeing a good uke or as a tori telling them always to hold the contact with you,turning them the way you need to do the technique, telling them to relax, showing them how to fall down without hurting themselves, sure it is easier training with a higher grade and sure it will look better , but you can learn really a lot training with a newbie, think about it .

Last edited by guest1234567 : 11-10-2010 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:53 AM   #54
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Ryan Szesny wrote: View Post
B. For instance, if someone attacks with a shomanuchi with a straight, stiff arm, it is impossible to do ikkyo without forcefully bending the arm. It does make a nice opening for rokyo, however. Higher level practitioners tend to switch to whatever works best based on body position, or such has been my experience.
It is no impossible, just turn the arm because otherwise you will hurt him.
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Old 11-10-2010, 09:34 AM   #55
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Ryan Szesny wrote: View Post
I don't consider it an issue of ego when people want to train with the best people in a class. Good Aikidoka get better by training with good Aikidoka, not beginners. Selfish, maybe, egocentrically... I don't think so, but then again it depends on their motives.
Ego = self. It is after all the Latin word for "I". If something is selfish, it's perforce an ego problem. "Egocentric" is merely a high-falutin' Latin word for good old Old English "selfish". Perhaps the biggest misunderstanding in the budo world is the idea that training to lose the ego merely means training to not be a jerk about things. It's about something much deeper, and much harder: abandoning the whole sense of "self". The term 無我 muga long predates Freud's use of "ego", or it's derived modern sense of "exaggerated sense of self-importance".

Of course, that's a Buddhist take on budo, and aikido's more of a Shinto-flavored art, so take it FWIW, and YMMV.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:08 AM   #56
Flintstone
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
As Eva Antonia said they are rigid and strong, or attack like a feather, you must teach them beeing a good uke or as a tori telling them always to hold the contact with you,turning them the way you need to do the technique, telling them to relax, showing them how to fall down without hurting themselves, sure it is easier training with a higher grade and sure it will look better , but you can learn really a lot training with a newbie, think about it .
Where is the "uke is always right" attitude? Look, you don't need to teach him to maintain contact, because that won't happen in Real Life (TM). You will say, if uke doesn't keep contact tori will strike him; I always heard that from César upwards. Well, maybe uke will strike / take down / whatever tori.

It is tori's job to make uke "turn the way you need...". Not to tell him how to do it. But to make him do it. That's performed by means of technique, not by means of indoctrination.

Uke is always right, stiff or pliable, hard or soft, fast or slow. It's tori's job to make uke do what he (tori) wants him (uke) to do. I thought that was what aiki was about (in its exterior form).

And, please, this is not a personal attack on you, your Sensei or those who think like you.
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:09 AM   #57
Flintstone
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
It is no impossible, just turn the arm because otherwise you will hurt him.
Wonder if you can teach me that should we get to meet in the mat.
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:12 AM   #58
Flintstone
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Ego = self. It is after all the Latin word for "I". If something is selfish, it's perforce an ego problem. "Egocentric" is merely a high-falutin' Latin word for good old Old English "selfish".
Well, I don't know in English, but in good old Spanish there surely is a difference between "egocéntrico (egocentric)" and "egoísta (selfish)". In my part of the world, egocentric is used to describe the person who believe that he is the... well... center of everything else, that everything's about him, that he's the bride in the wedding, the baby in the baptism, the dead in the funeral. Selfish is the one who wants it all. But maybe we should move this to the Latin Subforum.
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:47 AM   #59
C. David Henderson
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Re: Ego in the forum

Practice with kids; you'll learn alot if you're open to study.

David Henderson
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:01 AM   #60
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ego in the forum

Training with newbies, peers and seniors is all of very high value to me although the aspect of my training on which I'm working will vary.

A good senior will challenge me to push my boundaries, to improve. A peer can provide a mirror of where I am, reflecting it back to me, and we may laugh together as we learn.
A beginner will challenge me to confront what I think I already know/can do and in the need to transmit knowledge through the body I test the depth of my abilities.

The only people I don't enjoy training with are those who deliver absolutely ho-hum attacks or crank or muscle their way through techniques. The only people I turn away from when it's time to partner up are those who hurt others - mercifully this hasn't come up in many many years in my training.

But....the only person who can waste my time on the mat is ME.

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:02 AM   #61
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Well, I don't know in English, but in good old Spanish there surely is a difference between "egocéntrico (egocentric)" and "egoísta (selfish)". In my part of the world, egocentric is used to describe the person who believe that he is the... well... center of everything else, that everything's about him, that he's the bride in the wedding, the baby in the baptism, the dead in the funeral. Selfish is the one who wants it all. But maybe we should move this to the Latin Subforum.
Same in English. Two very different words to describe two very different people.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:03 AM   #62
Flintstone
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Practice with kids; you'll learn alot if you're open to study.
I love to practice with them a well as with newbies. See, now I'm being egocentric, but not selfish...
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:04 PM   #63
Ryan Seznee
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
It is no impossible, just turn the arm because otherwise you will hurt him.
I had said it was impossible without forcefully bending the arm. Turning the arm is just another way to bend it through another joint, in my mind at least... I meant that there were techniques better suited to that body position, not that some newbie had miraculously discovered the secret to beating all Ikkyo.
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:11 PM   #64
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Re: Ego in the forum

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I love to practice with them a well as with newbies. See, now I'm being egocentric, but not selfish...
Oh, Alejandro...you have such a way with words...

Mickey

Last edited by mickeygelum : 11-10-2010 at 12:12 PM. Reason: had to put in my teeth!
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:18 PM   #65
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Wonder if you can teach me that should we get to meet in the mat.
I'd like it, I'll tell you when I will go to a seminar to the peninsula, ok
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:37 PM   #66
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Where is the "uke is always right" attitude? Look, you don't need to teach him to maintain contact, because that won't happen in Real Life (TM). You will say, if uke doesn't keep contact tori will strike him; I always heard that from César upwards. Well, maybe uke will strike / take down / whatever tori.

It is tori's job to make uke "turn the way you need...". Not to tell him how to do it. But to make him do it. That's performed by means of technique, not by means of indoctrination.

Uke is always right, stiff or pliable, hard or soft, fast or slow. It's tori's job to make uke do what he (tori) wants him (uke) to do. I thought that was what aiki was about (in its exterior form).

And, please, this is not a personal attack on you, your Sensei or those who think like you.
I know that, and Alejandro we are not on the street we are in a dojo with a newbie who wants to learn aikido..
When did you see Cesar last? He changed a lot, I hope for you you will also become some sense in a few years
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:06 PM   #67
sakumeikan
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Ryan Szesny wrote: View Post
Newbies don't have has much to teach you because they don't know much to begin with. If they did, they wouldn't be newbies. I am not saying it is a waste of time, but no one drives for miles to see a day one beginner (but they do travel several hours to see a shihan). There was no lesson a beginner is able to teach me that someone more experienced can't do better, but (I'll be the first to admit) this is a selfish attitude.
I might be in a minority but I can gain from practicing with all levels of skill in Aikido.In some ways a raw beginner can be an invaluable aid in your training.Since the beginner is moving in a natural manner rather than in a conditioned manner of some experienced person , it can be a challenge to pin /throw a beginner [who might be strong /stiff or built like King Kong.Another point is this, how would newbies get experience if everybody avoided training with them?.At least you admit your a selfish individual.I suggest you reconsider your mind set.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 11-24-2010, 03:40 PM   #68
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Ego in the forum

Ego is every where, some good, some bad, some quiet, some sad.... It's what you are.....
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Old 11-24-2010, 04:21 PM   #69
guest1234567
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Re: Ego in the forum

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Ego is every where, some good, some bad, some quiet, some sad.... It's what you are.....
very nice
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