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Old 07-23-2005, 06:11 PM   #126
DustinAcuff
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I am talking about sparring. He was also fresh out of boot camp as the star pupil. He went on to be a hand to hand instructor in the USMC at age 18. I am well aware that competition is in no way reality, but he was stunned that he couldn't touch this guy, let alone hurt him when he had been training every day for as long as he could remember.
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:26 AM   #127
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Larry wrote:
Quote:
However imho this is no reason why the individual should not do their own research and training with a "combative" (not in a military sense necessarilly) mindset or goal in place. In my early Kyu days I would take almost every technique we practiced at home or after class and strip it down to its principles and play with it to find ways of it working under serious resistance and extreme force conditions because for me it was, and still is important to know how things would work in a practical sense, regardless of what was being taught on the day.
Good stuff Larry, I think you hit upon a key point, several actual in you post! What is most important is the attitude you approach your study with. (relates for to my point #1).

Aikido is a interesting paradox. On one hand we talk about it being non-violent, and a way to peace/harmony...yet on the other it is very violent etc. We are told not to worry about technique, but focus on prinicple.

Aikidoka will argue on here ad nausem about these things (me included!) This is why I say you must approach you studies with a goal/purpose in mind.

I agree many come to aikido, not really understanding the paradox and what it represents. Many do not care to internalize the techniques and realize that one day they may use them and need to really understand the application. Others totally focus on the physical fitness aspects and enjoy the "dance". Others may be into the whole KI thing.

Nothing wrong with those extreme approaches, but unless you really put yourself out there at take to heart what it is you are learning and why you are learning it..you will come up short.

One thing I have not really liked about aikido is what I call the "Church" mentality that can exsist in a dojo. The nature of training we use in aikido allows for people to simply attend training and not really put themselves into the training, they can smile, go through the movements, chastize me on my posture/ki and go home. They get a "warm and fuzzy", but never really put themselves into it

I equate this to "church" in the sense that many churches are filled with those that simply attend on special holidays and "check the block". They really contribute not much to their own aikido, nor the dojos.

These type can be dangerous, IMHO. one they end up with a false sense of security about how good they are in "real life"tm. They also set up other aikidoka for failure in by giving them a false sense of security, or aikidoka "smells the BS", and doubts the effectiveness of aikido training. Then comes on line and discusses that on aikiweb!

One thing I have enjoyed about MMA/BJJ is that it is difficult to get away with this. You must put yourself on the line and try hard. The nature of the training holds you accountable.

As I have said before, there is nothing wrong with the approach to training aikido uses, it does well to accomplish the goals of it's founder, O'Sensei. It just is not the only way, nor is it the best way for all endstates!
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:48 AM   #128
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Dustin,

I had a similar experience out in Ranger School in the mid 90s. Every platoon had to front one fighter and all four of us were in the ring at the same time. The rules were basically NHB rules, last man left in the ring standing was the winner.

It was a "game" as all competitions are, and I let the other three go at it until they got tired, and the odds evened. I layed down right next to the sandbag wall and "pulled guard" on the last guy and tossed him out of the ring.

My goals were simple: 1. don't get hurt and get kicked out of school. 2. Win if at all possible.

Funny thing is my guys called me the "P" word cause I didn't fight! I won, but I didn't fight!

Anyway, I too found my training was an asset much like your sensei. However, I have also found that the methodology employed to teach we use in aikido is not the right one for the military. Certain aspects of it are, but not as a complete methodology.

Dr. Richard Strozzi Heckler, an Aikidoka and sensei, spent much time with the Marine Corps in developing their program. Even then, it is not aikido today.

You sensei might find today that he would be facing many soldiers and marines with much more experience than the average soldier/marine had back then.

The military is going through a huge transformation. We became fascinated with hiding behind technology, today we are "discovering" that we must deal with people, up front and look them in the eyes, both as enemies and as fellow humans.

We have alot to learn about this as a modern military, but martial arts, IMHO, plays a key role in this process. At least as far as the Army is concerned, it is much more than a few simple "lines" training moves "by the numbers". Which is what we were doing back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

Well I certainly got off topic!
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Old 07-24-2005, 01:29 PM   #129
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
One thing I have enjoyed about MMA/BJJ is that it is difficult to get away with this. You must put yourself on the line and try hard. The nature of the training holds you accountable.
Great post Kevin, spot on.

The above quote is how our dojo approaches training as well. Of course as a result it may not be as big or as "popular" as some others where the "Church" mentality as you put it, is dominant.

Happy training.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 07-24-2005, 03:10 PM   #130
DustinAcuff
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I realize that Aikido is about the last MA that I would recommend for the military unless you became trainees at about age 12 and didn't see combat until age 18. It simply takes too long to learn. The majority of the MAs hailed as the most effective can be taught to large numbers of people and have them proficient, not expert, within a year's time. Muai Thai, BJJ, Wing Chun, and Western Boxing are the first ones that come to mind. Aikido does have a place in the world, but it seems that the place it has is directly related to your mindset and how you were taught.

Here's some food for thought: during his last years O'Sensei would sadly say "I've given my life to opeining the path of Aikido but when I look back no one is following me." An American student said to him once "I really want to do your Aikido." To which he replied "How unusual! Everyone else wants to do their own Aikido."
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Old 07-24-2005, 04:32 PM   #131
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
1)Good post Jean,

2)and also the dynamic it takes to train masses of soldiers for situational training.

3)Of course, we ended on the ground, and I had my ass handed to me. Later this year, I had a guy complete the two month intense Army combatives course with no prior experience in fighting or MA, he held his own against me. It was very humiliating and an eye opener.

4)it also allowed me to learn BJJ fairly rapidily and I am know miles ahead of others because of my understanding of kokyu, ki, posture etc.

5). TMA tend to be parochial and lend to "group think". If you are training to be a soldier, MMA guy or, a Cop, you may want to consider schools that are geared towards that.
6). Be very careful in falling into the trap of what "realistic" is. Aikido, BJJ, Krav Maga and all arts have their own paradigm of what "realistic" is. None of them is entirely right in their training approach. If realistic training is your goal...you will have to work hard and question often to make sure you are accomplishing your goals!
1)Thanks. It's very interesting.
2)Agreed. I mention that in another thread.
3)That doesn't say anything about Aikido...just how you've trained. I can see where you're coming from though--the reason for losing doesn't really matter...you just needed to fix it...quick.
4)I bet. I believe if you train in any MA, you'll learn another faster. However, I like to think that what I've learned in Aikido is sooo close to the root of MAs, that we learn even faster than others...call it bias...whatever.
5)TMA?
6)I agree, you should question. However, I get the impression that you're referring to something more specific? But, nonetheless, I think just because you don't get the answer you're looking for (about realism) you should, most of the time, just be cool and trust the process.
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Old 07-24-2005, 04:35 PM   #132
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

TMA= Traditional Martial Arts. Aikido, Karatedo, Judo....
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Old 10-28-2010, 04:37 PM   #133
Sirhoward90
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Or are you looking for a specifically Aikido response to the takedown/mount/submission? If so then I have some bad news for you. There ain't one. Which of course isn't to say there isn't an AIKI response. If you take the concepts that gave birth to aikido and examine how they may apply when your feet aren't on the ground and you have to find completely different models for movement, and then practice that application throughly testing it against an opponant, you will find many ways to counter. This is called BJJ.
I agree and disagree with you. I agree that you could come to BJJ with that process, but I also believe that the way Brazillian Jujutsu is taught in mixed martial arts is not very aiki-friendly. Professional Jujutsu stuff can be very fluid though.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:00 PM   #134
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Jeff,

In my experiences, "aiki-friendly" might depend on who you study with. All the 6th Degrees in BJJ that I have studied with tend to be very aiki-friendly.

It's the white belts that typcially are not "aiki-friendly"...and that is also the case with white belts in Aikido...they are just learning.

Also, there can be a big difference in MMA and BJJ. Most MMA guys are not so worried about perfecting jiu-jitsu, but about learning how to deal with it...so of course YMMV. Is this what you mean?

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Old 10-29-2010, 01:24 PM   #135
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Holy crap! I was reading this thread and realized I posted on it in 2004. Resurrection!

Now, having just under 22 years of Aikido and 12 years of BJJ under my belt...I can say that my BJJ is much more fluid now that it is in concord with my Aikido. They are very, very similar in my eyes. Seeing the similarities rather than the differences has made them work for me.

Mike Ellefson
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:11 PM   #136
Sirhoward90
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Oh, I understand that Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu can be very useful and fluid. I just mean the stuff I see in cagefighting isn't exactly the most relaxed, or technique and skill base. More on aggression and fitness imo.
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Old 10-30-2010, 07:19 PM   #137
Michael Varin
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Michael Ellefson wrote:
Now, having just under 22 years of Aikido and 12 years of BJJ under my belt...I can say that my BJJ is much more fluid now that it is in concord with my Aikido. They are very, very similar in my eyes. Seeing the similarities rather than the differences has made them work for me.
I really hate when people start asking questions about rank, but mine is merely out of curiosity. What is your rank in bjj? What I'm really asking is has your training been continuous and included regular sparring?

Also, I'm very curious; do you train aikido and bjj concurrently? If so, how do you feel about the lack of sparring in aikido, and its impact on the relative effectiveness of these two arts?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-30-2010, 07:49 PM   #138
Michael Varin
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Jeff Wilkinson wrote:
I just mean the stuff I see in cagefighting isn't exactly the most relaxed, or technique and skill base. More on aggression and fitness imo.
I wouldn't be too sure of that. What are you basing your assessment on?

Your skill level has to be substantially higher than your opponent to make things look clinical when your opponent is trying to beat you.

One that comes to mind was the fight between Georges Saint-Pierre and Dan Hardy earlier this year. You might be able to find it online. Total domination, but even in that fight GSP couldn't finish Hardy.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-31-2010, 09:58 AM   #139
grondahl
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Have you checked out the homepage listed in his profile?

http://www.midwestaikido.com/dnn3/Ma...6/Default.aspx

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I really hate when people start asking questions about rank, but mine is merely out of curiosity. What is your rank in bjj? What I'm really asking is has your training been continuous and included regular sparring?

Also, I'm very curious; do you train aikido and bjj concurrently? If so, how do you feel about the lack of sparring in aikido, and its impact on the relative effectiveness of these two arts?
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Old 10-31-2010, 05:57 PM   #140
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

my limited understanding is that
Aikido seems to specialized in the take-down phase, or the clinch, area of no-weapon martial arts;
most Kara-Te (or karate/TKD) specialize in the contact phase, the stand-up;
Jiujitsu (esp. BJJ) specialize in on the ground while Judo practice evenly on take-downs and on ground.

if you're "playing*" jiujitsu than you must work on jiujitsu to counter.

Judo or Jiujitsu's a lot of fun and a great workout.

*it's either a game (with judges and prizes) or it's Budo (of life and death matter)."

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:15 PM   #141
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

*it's either a game (with judges and prizes) or it's Budo (of life and death matter)."

....or it can be both

Aikido is a way of aiki... It specializes in teaching aiki

Yes, takedowns etc are involved, but aikido is not focused or specialized on tactics so much.

Also most judo typically is not "even" on takedowns and ground and judo focuses on throws vice takedowns...although of course, YMMV.

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Old 11-01-2010, 03:38 PM   #142
Chris Evans
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Wink Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
*it's either a game (with judges and prizes) or it's Budo (of life and death matter)."

....or it can be both

Aikido is a way of aiki... It specializes in teaching aiki

Yes, takedowns etc are involved, but aikido is not focused or specialized on tactics so much.

Also most judo typically is not "even" on takedowns and ground and judo focuses on throws vice takedowns...although of course, YMMV.
Whatever ever you think Aiki is, can not exist, expressed, or developed without the physical.

What little I've seen of Aikido, the making contact aspects are limited and much of it presumed, but what to do with the contact seems to be focused on a yielding and blending the take-down with control. The Aiki inner-personal harmonizing aspects are wonderful with "harmless" people, in business and with acquaintances, but perhaps is not recommend with idealists that are committed to violence. Since I know I don't "know" Aiki, I have begun adding Aikido to my "Budo" practice.

Judo throws (and sweeps) are take-downs, dealing with the clinch. My favorate Judo quote is: "Conditioning is the greatest hold," by Karl Gotch.

BJJ strongly focuses on the competitive sport element of ground fighting and does an outstanding job of conditioning and of learning to deal with fear and pain that hones the confidence needed to think clearly to prevent or solve personal conflicts.

By the way, it's amazing how many educated (esp. the more erudite) people practicing martial arts hold on to many delusions about martial arts (and kindly show me when I do).

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 11-03-2010, 03:09 AM   #143
Michael Varin
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote:
My favorate Judo quote is: "Conditioning is the greatest hold," by Karl Gotch.
What does Karl Gotch have to do with judo?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 11-03-2010, 10:05 AM   #144
Chris Evans
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Thumbs up Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Michael Ellefson wrote: View Post
Holy crap! I was reading this thread and realized I posted on it in 2004. Resurrection!

Now, having just under 22 years of Aikido and 12 years of BJJ under my belt...I can say that my BJJ is much more fluid now that it is in concord with my Aikido. They are very, very similar in my eyes. Seeing the similarities rather than the differences has made them work for me.
Thanks for your insight, Michael.

I am looking forward to integrating Aikido with my Karate and Judo or BJJ practices (I alternate or mix between these schools: a university Judo and a BJJ gym).

Matter of fact, I don't see any artificial separations inteh the traditional martial arts.

I pursue MMA/Hapkido-skillsets by:
~Karate: 2~4/week (only to touch/tag sport-karate, very limited contact - quite delusional in the name of safety, but good forms and spirit)
~Judo or BJJ 2/week (some of the BJJ players do MMA with me and wow(!) -- real humbling, painful, and insightful; Judo's real, very "honest" and down to earth).
~Shodokan Aikido: 2/week (just started, hope I can keep it up)

That's about 6 days a week of Budo.

To me, "Hapkido" is 1/3 Karate/fighting-TKD, 1/3 Aikido, and 1/3 Jujitsu....like chasing three rabbits at once .

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 11-03-2010, 10:11 AM   #145
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Wink Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
What does Karl Gotch have to do with judo?
Wrestling (the real sport) has insights that Judo or any Budo-ka can learn from.

Outside of a dojo or gym, how can a casual obsever distinguish what's from wrestling and what's from Judo?

From a distance, for a time, a drowning man appears similar to a man struggling to swim.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 11-08-2010, 11:26 AM   #146
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
sonny aberin wrote: View Post
just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down?
ive experience sparring with a jiu-jitsu, its hard especially when he tried to take me down to the ground, doing the arm bar or the ankle lock.. how do u counter that moves?
If someone's face is within your reach there is no reason you shouldn't be able to figure a way to get back up. However, if you're talking about defending it in a friendly way (as in no thumbs embedded in eye sockets), nikyo can be implemented well from your back with a little practice.
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:16 PM   #147
grondahl
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

The nineties just called, it wants it post back.

Quote:
Richard Stevens wrote: View Post
If someone's face is within your reach there is no reason you shouldn't be able to figure a way to get back up. However, if you're talking about defending it in a friendly way (as in no thumbs embedded in eye sockets), nikyo can be implemented well from your back with a little practice.
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:03 PM   #148
DonMagee
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Richard Stevens wrote: View Post
If someone's face is within your reach there is no reason you shouldn't be able to figure a way to get back up. However, if you're talking about defending it in a friendly way (as in no thumbs embedded in eye sockets), nikyo can be implemented well from your back with a little practice.
This post half makes me want to start a James Randi style fund for martial arts.

$20.00 for the person who can eye gouge me while I have them in the mount before I get annoyed at them and pound them unconscious!

Must be willing to come to me because I'm really lazy.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:20 AM   #149
roadtoad
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

there's no 'proper' aikido for that, but, you can use the aikido concepts.If someone has you on your back, in the mount position, you need to ward off his blows, and then work your (say) right arm over to his right side, under his right shoulder, as to try and throw him shomenuchi irimi nage omote style. Meanwhile, work your legs loose, and try to get your (say) left leg wrapped around the front of his left neck, then, flop him over on his back, or belly,and get an arm lock on him.
This is nothing close to what anyone would call aikido, but, it is the type of technique that I think more dojos should practice, in order to bring aikido into the 21st century.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:13 AM   #150
Richard Stevens
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Unless the "hypothetical person" has some experience in grappling there is very little they are going to be able to do on the ground against a "hypothetical jiu-jitsu expert".

Hypothetically, is there anything a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner will be able to do to stop their wrist from being broken if an Aikido expert has nikkyo locked in?
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