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Old 10-27-2010, 06:34 AM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Your believing Aikido is 90% atemi
Do you mean my intepretation of one of the translations given by Prof. Goldsbury is a product of epistemic viciousness on my part?

If so, how so? Because you say so or is there a reasoning that makes you call me vicious? More or less vicious than the other posters who made their own interpretations?

You're pushing your luck, Carina. Prudence is a virtue, show a bit of it and choose yor battles wisely. Don't make me go to "the other place" and be nasty, because I can (and you are aware of it) and there shall be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

.

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Old 10-27-2010, 06:45 AM   #27
carina reinhardt
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Do you mean my intepretation of one of the translations given by Prof. Goldsbury is a product of epistemic viciousness on my part?

If so, how so? Because you say so or is there a reasoning that makes you call me vicious? More or less vicious than the other posters who made their own interpretations?

You're pushing your luck, Carina. Prudence is a virtue, show a bit of it and choose yor battles wisely. Don't make me go to "the other place" and be nasty, because I can (and you are aware of it) and there shall be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

.
First of all Demetrio I'don't want a battle and you know that. You know I admire your knowledge very much, and I'm never cynic
But it this is your interpretation for the translations from Prof Goldsbury , I didn't understand that

Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Another translation can be found in Budo Renshu:
When you instruct
Emphasize the strike and the thrust
For all the secret teachings
Are to be found in simple basics
You
Aikido is 90% atemi.

Sorry, maybe I must read more and write less
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:26 AM   #28
grondahl
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Carina, I think that Demetrio is refering to another quote from Ueshiba (or was it Shioda) stating that aikido is 90% atemi.
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Old 10-27-2010, 10:05 AM   #29
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Carina, I think that Demetrio is refering to another quote from Ueshiba (or was it Shioda) stating that aikido is 90% atemi.
And with that quote, attibuted to O Sensei, is how I understand the doka in Bieri's translation.

Anyway, there are also:

"...but my teacher Morihei Ueshiba sensei always had stated that in real fighting occasions 70% of aikido is atemi, and 30% is throwing" Shioda G.

"Atemi accounts for 99% of aikido." was a remark once uttered by the Founder" Saito M.

So I think my interpretation of the doka is as valid as any other until we follow a serious exegetical process of Founder's writings that ends in a clear demonstration of my "epistemic viciousness".

If you (and I mean Carina) disagree with my interpretation, I'm open to reasoning and debate, of course. But if you reasoning consists in "because I (or my senpai/sensei/shihan/doshu or channeled founder) say so, circular reasoning and assorted cultish behaviour, don't expect to be taken seriously or expect to be considered a troll and treated accordingly. Not here, but where your self e-image of "enlightened shodan" is mostly displayed so it's going to hurt more.

If you are looking for an old school masakatsu agatsu katsu hayabi, I'll deliver.

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Old 10-27-2010, 11:00 AM   #30
phitruong
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post

"...but my teacher Morihei Ueshiba sensei always had stated that in real fighting occasions 70% of aikido is atemi, and 30% is throwing" Shioda G.

"Atemi accounts for 99% of aikido." was a remark once uttered by the Founder" Saito M.
so if i take the average, then it would be "atemi is 84.5% of aikido", right? or we could round it down to 80% which would fall into the 80/20 rule that applied to most things. can we all agree to that number?

personally, i think these doka were the way that Ueshiba attempted at bad poetry that is not even rhythm, and to leave them as a joke/mind-game so that generations later, folks still debate on it. he probably laughed his bones in his grave off thinking "what a bunch of suckers!"
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Old 10-27-2010, 11:12 AM   #31
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
so if i take the average, then it would be "atemi is 84.5% of aikido", right? or we could round it down to 80% which would fall into the 80/20 rule that applied to most things. can we all agree to that number?
Sure, of course.

Quote:
personally, i think these doka were the way that Ueshiba attempted at bad poetry that is not even rhythm, and to leave them as a joke/mind-game so that generations later, folks still debate on it. he probably laughed his bones in his grave off thinking "what a bunch of suckers!"
This guy must have the IHTBF.

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Old 10-27-2010, 11:17 AM   #32
jonreading
 
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

"Epistemic Viciousness in the Martial Arts" by Gillian Russell

I am not sure how to take this essay. While I understand the general points the author asserts, the author relies heavily on fictitious situations built to substantiate her claims, and situational analogy to enhance her ethos. All this and she concludes the essay under the supposition that her position is correct... Interesting read if nothing else...

I guess after reading this essay the position here is that the claim "Aikido is 90% atemi" is unverified as fact and possibly false because its origination is subject to epistemic viciousness by its consumer(s). I am correctly reading this essay?

While I am not familiar with the term, it is fair game to assert that consumers of information should be wary about the nature of the information they consume. I would not exclude martial arts from that statement and I appreciate the article for that position. I also appreciate the author's position to advocate verifying information sources, something that is uncommon here in the US (check Wikipedia, its a fact).

I am not sure if I would agree that the statement Demetrio made is false or rationalized under the guise of epistemic viciousness. Whether the percentage figure is correct, several leading shihan, including {if memory serves] O'Sensei, Saito Sensei, Shioda Sensei, and Kuriowa Sensei have made similar comments emphasizing the role of atemi in aikido. Throw in the verbal comments from contemporary aikido leaders and you have quite a few people who believe in the heavy role atemi plays in aikido. Heck there is a post right now on Aikiweb from Ledyard Sensei emphasizing the role of atemi in aikido. I will point out however that while this comment is common, fewer quotes exist that advocate we have to use atemi in our training (it's the thought that counts?)

The question is does this interpretation fit the doka in the thread? While I believe its a stretch, I can see the doka places an emphasis on striking and I don't think Demetrio's claim is any more or less relevant than mine of others posted here.
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Old 10-27-2010, 11:35 AM   #33
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
"Epistemic Viciousness in the Martial Arts" by Gillian Russell

I am not sure how to take this essay.
As a draft of an essay written for popular audience. Entertaining but not deep.

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Old 10-27-2010, 11:50 AM   #34
carina reinhardt
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
And with that quote, attibuted to O Sensei, is how I understand the doka in Bieri's translation.

If you (and I mean Carina) disagree with my interpretation, I'm open to reasoning and debate, of course. But if you reasoning consists in "because I (or my senpai/sensei/shihan/doshu or channeled founder) say so, circular reasoning and assorted cultish behaviour, don't expect to be taken seriously or expect to be considered a troll and treated accordingly. Not here, but where your self e-image of "enlightened shodan" is mostly displayed so it's going to hurt more.

If you are looking for an old school masakatsu agatsu katsu hayabi, I'll deliver.
Ok Demetrio, I Carina didn't understand you, you put examples from Shioda an Saito, but for me Carina Aikido is not 90% atemi and not cause senpai/sensei/shihan/doshu or channeled founder say so.. I did not understand your interpretation from Prof Goldsbury translation
I'm not a troll, that you must know by now, even in a forum where all writer were anonymous I answered with my real name.
And I'm very sorry the things I wrote you that maybe hurt you in the past, my only excuse is that I was new in the forum and couldn't distinguish the true from the false.
I don't think from me as an enlighted shodan, on the contrary, I know I' just starting to learn.
If you don't like my blog, don't read it, once I wanted to close it and many people sent me mails not do it.
And Demetrio I hoped we could be kind of friends , but now I realize you cannot forgive what ever I did to you, it was a bad idea to come back to aikifroum and aikiweb, I like to answer when I know and can help, but don't worry I will not disturb you any more.

What did you say with victory, self-victory, the day of swift victory.?.
See I only went to secondary school, I don't can latin, either japanese, So in this environment I' m nothing compared with you.

Take care
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:06 PM   #35
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Please accept my apologies, Carina. I was having a bad day IRL.

OTOH, I don`t dislike your blog. I don't reccomend it as a source of knowledge about budo for I find it lacking (as I don't recomend mine for the same motive), but we should discuss this issue where it belongs: in aikiforum, not here.

Aikiforum and Aikiweb are two different leagues. Try to understand it.

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Old 10-27-2010, 12:16 PM   #36
carina reinhardt
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

What a relief my day was not better, my car broken at least 250€ and in the office better not mentione.
I don't like to contradict you in aikiforum, that why I will not say anything . Ok I understand that they are two different leagues
I just answered one guy who copied my publication from today, that it was not mine, to put the real source .

I hope your evening will be better, if I had my car I would go to the beach, maybe you can do something like that
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Old 10-27-2010, 01:52 PM   #37
carina reinhardt
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

This does not fit in this thread, but I will not begin a new one so
I like this doka translated by John Stevens very much but don't understand the last words:
Sincerity!
Cultivate yourself
sincerely and thus realize
the profound truth that
manifest and hidden are one.
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Old 10-27-2010, 02:42 PM   #38
Dan Rubin
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

manifest: clear or obvious to the eye or mind
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Old 10-27-2010, 03:07 PM   #39
carina reinhardt
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
manifest: clear or obvious to the eye or mind
why hidden?
and now the translation from Seiseki Abe:
It is sincerity!
First cultivate sincerity with all your heart
So realize this truth
The World of Reality and the World of Appearance are One

the last words why the world fo appearance?
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:18 PM   #40
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

"The true martial art which Morihei was trying to discover became more and more evident as he furthered his research and training over the years. Since human beings have eternal life in the triangle of the three worlds -the world of appearances, the hidden world and the divine world - judgements of rightness or wrongness in the phenomenal world that accompany human existence should not be made only to provide historical explanations of justice wherein the three worlds are discriminated. Rather, judgements should be based on the idea of the unity of the three worlds so that virtue and evil become self-evident. Viewed in this manner, the armed struggles which have been recorded for the last several thousand years up to the present reveal the above truth even more vividly as the world population increases and human exchange becomes more frequent and complex." Kanemoto Sunadomari.

(bold mine)

I think we're entering into Omoto kyo doctrine here.

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Old 10-27-2010, 06:58 PM   #41
dps
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Since human beings have eternal life in the triangle of the three worlds -the world of appearances, the hidden world and the divine world -
(bold mine)
.
Body, Mind and Spirit?

David
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Old 10-28-2010, 01:01 AM   #42
carina reinhardt
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Thanks Demetrio, that shows us how wide seeing and wise became O'Sensei in his researches and training
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Old 10-28-2010, 01:44 AM   #43
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

教には打突拍子さとく聞け極意の稽古表なりけり

There is no extra syllable with "oshie".

Oshie ni wa (5) - In the teachings
Uchitsuki hyoushi (7) Striking-thrusting rhythm
Satoku kike (5) Listen well (satoku has the sense of "cleverly, keenly)
Gokui no keiko (7) Practice of secrets/ultimate meaning
Omote nari keri (7) Is the surface (basic, first learned techniques)

My translation would be, "In the teachings, mark well the rhythm of striking and thrusting; the practice of the innermost secrets is the basic techniques."

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Understanding the rhythm of attacks is important, and the basic techniques contain all the gokui of aikido.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 10-28-2010, 05:37 PM   #44
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Thanks to Josh for confirming the meter and readings.

I also like your explanation very much.

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
教には打突拍子さとく聞け極意の稽古表なりけり
There is no extra syllable with "oshie".
I know you don't mean that kyo-u (2) and o-shi-e (3) are the same length so presumably you are highlighting that 教 is read here as oshie without the need for okurigana.

Carl
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Old 10-28-2010, 07:38 PM   #45
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Doka of the Day - October 18, 2010

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
I know you don't mean that kyo-u (2) and o-shi-e (3) are the same length so presumably you are highlighting that 教 is read here as oshie without the need for okurigana.
No, I just misread your post. I think I read your use of the word "extra" as "extraneous", thus the reason for using "kyou" in your transliteration of the poem. Rereading, I see I got that very wrong, so my apologies.

I do believe that 教 is here read "oshie", particularly because of the meter. Okurigana are not needed. In fact, in Microsoft's input editor, if you put in "oshie" and select "henkan", you can in fact get just the kanji, without okurigana. Things are a much more standardized now, but particularly in pre-war literature, there can be quite some variation in okurigana use, and in some cases, like this one, kanji alone were used without okurigana.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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